Viperules700 Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Can't control the weatherman, as much as we'd like to, but yeah, there would be more permit sales if snow came & stayed early. If it weren't for all the rains we had in Dec & Jan, how much snow would your area have ? We lost a full 2 feet in Hearst, imagine if that all stayed, and I mean everywhere. Quebec trails are doing well because Quebec people are pouring money into the system and it's booming for them. I don't know if there's something else going on, but their permit sales are good and they get lots of snow. Not that I'd travel to Quebec for a ride, there's enough to see around our province, but for those wanting a different scenery I have no objection. Our problem is the cost of fuel, lack of volunteers to groom, and the repeated bad starting winters causing low permit sales. Hope someone has a solution. We Definantly need a great start, province wide next year. That will solve some of the problems For sure. We even had rain in d5 and d9 second week of feb. That actually helped the system, since it packed down the snow and gave it staying power. Without that our season might have only been 2 weeks, since clubs just started grooming here feb 5. Last grooming here in d5 was around the 6th of march. Trails opened and closed about a few times during this time frame. We had 21 rideable days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lep Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Ofsc/Ont has a long way to go to even tie the French mans boots...Imo there will be NO more funding for tourist via the OFSC why...like I say yrs ago mandates will have to be ment...did that happen??? Standing waiting for handouts is not the solution why because first of ONT is broke,mandates were not ment,and our 217 clubs cannot come together,why clubs just think of themselves NOT the BIG picture. Every outfitter in QUE is involved...touristism is permoted by all...thats why they get the funding period...Que peeps live for the out doors...snowmaching,atving,fishing going to there camps etc...plus its a family activity ....there are hundreds of rides/carnavals etc going every weekend of the year period. We need to get these handouts out of our minds IMO it aint going to happen as we screwed that with no organization etc....need to get back to basic's....Canuck that red sign we have replaced twice the last few yrs...could it not be drawn up that no lawyer could screw with it and every pass sold in ONT the peep has to sign off period...USE at your own ....the non complaince ### is BS...if thats the case why hasnt the fine been increased 1K min...permits need to go UP not the other way...Ego's need to go among the clubs and come together as ONE....and get staff at the TOP that understand snowmobiling etc and the up hill battle we have to face...The groomer op program needs to happen asap that will hopefully slow down the expensies having op's that know what a piece of machincery is what it can do and not do...and #1 we need bodies period...I went on a mission last yr to get more peeps out to our club and keep them around guess what we went from our 10 regular peeps till 15-20 regulars and young blood to boot...our vp for next yr is green BUT he has the ambition and he will have the help around if needed then he moves up the next yr...thats one thing NDSC has been doing for many moons our two top excut moves around yrly so its not just the same peeps getting there boots wet,every one in the club knows what its about...Now the Brass pole at Easy's helps also..LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther340 Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Thank you Bucking Pig you reiterate what I have said all along, the northern locals while some may like the trails, they don’t “need” the trails. ……………….and lets use Foleyet as an example small town, it has a population of 200, wikepedia tell us barely 20 kids in the school. So lets guess at maybe 50 snowmachines at best owned by locals, of this 50 machines how many would be native/metis descent ? How many would be just folks going fishing ? In other words these are those that can either use OFSC trails legally without permits or would use the trails even if not OFSC trails existing by making their own trails to lakes. Versus how many would actually just go out for a tour on the OFSC trail without any destination in mind (just to burn gas) very few I imagine. Now how many of these 50 would see any priority in volunteering to maintain trails ? Very few I imagine. Makes you realize why locals not seeing need to be involved when you do the numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Thank you Bucking Pig you reiterate what I have said all along, the northern locals while some may like the trails, they don’t “need” the trails. ……………….and lets use Foleyet as an example small town, it has a population of 200, wikepedia tell us barely 20 kids in the school. So lets guess at maybe 50 snowmachines at best owned by locals, of this 50 machines how many would be native/metis descent ? How many would be just folks going fishing ? In other words these are those that can either use OFSC trails legally without permits or would use the trails even if not OFSC trails existing by making their own trails to lakes. Versus how many would actually just go out for a tour on the OFSC trail without any destination in mind (just to burn gas) very few I imagine. Now how many of these 50 would see any priority in volunteering to maintain trails ? Very few I imagine. Makes you realize why locals not seeing need to be involved when you do the numbers. geeez, I wonder why there where snowmobile clubs started up there in the first place..........those people must have had rocks in their head eh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo Doo Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Ofsc/Ont has a long way to go to even tie the French mans boots...Imo there will be NO more funding for tourist via the OFSC why...like I say yrs ago mandates will have to be ment...did that happen??? Standing waiting for handouts is not the solution why because first of ONT is broke,mandates were not ment,and our 217 clubs cannot come together,why clubs just think of themselves NOT the BIG picture. Every outfitter in QUE is involved...touristism is permoted by all...thats why they get the funding period...Que peeps live for the out doors...snowmaching,atving,fishing going to there camps etc...plus its a family activity ....there are hundreds of rides/carnavals etc going every weekend of the year period. We need to get these handouts out of our minds IMO it aint going to happen as we screwed that with no organization etc....need to get back to basic's....Canuck that red sign we have replaced twice the last few yrs...could it not be drawn up that no lawyer could screw with it and every pass sold in ONT the peep has to sign off period...USE at your own ....the non complaince ### is BS...if thats the case why hasnt the fine been increased 1K min...permits need to go UP not the other way...Ego's need to go among the clubs and come together as ONE....and get staff at the TOP that understand snowmobiling etc and the up hill battle we have to face...The groomer op program needs to happen asap that will hopefully slow down the expensies having op's that know what a piece of machincery is what it can do and not do...and #1 we need bodies period...I went on a mission last yr to get more peeps out to our club and keep them around guess what we went from our 10 regular peeps till 15-20 regulars and young blood to boot...our vp for next yr is green BUT he has the ambition and he will have the help around if needed then he moves up the next yr...thats one thing NDSC has been doing for many moons our two top excut moves around yrly so its not just the same peeps getting there boots wet,every one in the club knows what its about...Now the Brass pole at Easy's helps also..LOL. Great post Lep.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrafrozen Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 geeez, I wonder why there where snowmobile clubs started up there in the first place..........those people must have had rocks in their head eh I'm guessing the trail systems started up there when the economy was better and touring was in its infancy. I know the system around KL really expanded in the eighties when a few local construction contractors got interested and started using their own equipment to cut trails or widen existing or old fire access roads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Valtag permit combo would help. The north would get an exemption anyway's. We could double ofsc funding overnight by doing this. Other then that, it Is an ugly slide to the bottom, with the french stealing our tourist dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Can't control the weatherman, as much as we'd like to, but yeah, there would be more permit sales if snow came & stayed early. If it weren't for all the rains we had in Dec & Jan, how much snow would your area have ? We lost a full 2 feet in Hearst, imagine if that all stayed, and I mean everywhere. Quebec trails are doing well because Quebec people are pouring money into the system and it's booming for them. I don't know if there's something else going on, but their permit sales are good and they get lots of snow. Not that I'd travel to Quebec for a ride, there's enough to see around our province, but for those wanting a different scenery I have no objection. Our problem is the cost of fuel, lack of volunteers to groom, and the repeated bad starting winters causing low permit sales. Hope someone has a solution. Many people here whine about the OPP presence on the trails in Ontario of which I don't think there is enough. But typically those are the ones that want to hot dog it down the trail, stop and have a number of beverages for lunch and then ride. What I hear from people riding in Quebec is that there is a strong enforcement presence and they often remind anyone going to Quebec to make sure you have mirrors on the sled or you will get fined for sure. We have a definite problem with people riding and not buying permits. It has been suggested by some that with more enforcement in Quebec that is not a problem. If everyone riding is paying the situation would be better in all likelihood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucking Pig Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 geeez, I wonder why there where snowmobile clubs started up there in the first place..........those people must have had rocks in their head eh Like a lot of things... It seemed like a good idea at the time. When things started up, there were promises of local touring loops, and the idea of bringing in tourists to help diversify the economy made sense (to me anyway) And, for $80, $100. $120 a pop, what the heck, lots of people bought in. Then, the price of the permit went to $150, $180 and up and up, while at the same time the local loops were closed up and the clubs focused on the TOP trails, our economy tanked and all the volunteers left town looking for work. The result is what you see today, where it does not make sense for a local (at least where I live) to buy a permit, so the clubs close up (unless you have a miracle worker like Luc). Thats the way I see it anyway. BP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lep Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Many people here whine about the OPP presence on the trails in Ontario of which I don't think there is enough. But typically those are the ones that want to hot dog it down the trail, stop and have a number of beverages for lunch and then ride. What I hear from people riding in Quebec is that there is a strong enforcement presence and they often remind anyone going to Quebec to make sure you have mirrors on the sled or you will get fined for sure. We have a definite problem with people riding and not buying permits. It has been suggested by some that with more enforcement in Quebec that is not a problem. If everyone riding is paying the situation would be better in all likelihood. Can u please prove that....50% non comp is a smoking mirror ## period.......125-145k reg sleds in Ont need the prove....What some dont know the MTO ## have been incorrect we proved it in my industry 10yrs ago.....GO to the MTO since we are in bed with them and ask how many brought VAL tags last yr OR keep track of it this yr.....no permit without a tag period then u will see 50k permits and val tags sold plus the increase....if the ofsc thinks they are going to get another 50-75k val tag at 35 dollars a hit goodluck...what u believe , is for every other sled that pases u every weekend does not have a permit.....and NO its not the NORTH that supposally has these 50-75k sleds rolling around...yes there are a few K running around but NOT 50-75K period....heres something to think about just one slice of the pie....how many K used sleds sitting around just the dealerships that are reg with the MTO and did NOT hit the snow, my local dealer prob had 35-50 and my own dealer 50 plus.....$hit the group I hang with probally has 50-60 sleds kicking around(one gent in per has 46 collector) that are all in the data base of 125-145k but never see the snow...I my self have 3 but only ride one. Qu has the enforcement along with the BIG fines....resorts,outfitters etc are all on the federations side....cannot compare a apple to a peanut....we had our chance with the toursit dollars did we manage it correctly and meet the mandates??Time to get out and ride the province not just the backyard,then head to Qu... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Can u please prove that....50% non comp is a smoking mirror ## period.......125-145k reg sleds in Ont need the prove....What some dont know the MTO ## have been incorrect we proved it in my industry 10yrs ago.....GO to the MTO since we are in bed with them and ask how many brought VAL tags last yr OR keep track of it this yr.....no permit without a tag period then u will see 50k permits and val tags sold plus the increase....if the ofsc thinks they are going to get another 50-75k val tag at 35 dollars a hit goodluck...what u believe , is for every other sled that pases u every weekend does not have a permit.....and NO its not the NORTH that supposally has these 50-75k sleds rolling around...yes there are a few K running around but NOT 50-75K period....heres something to think about just one slice of the pie....how many K used sleds sitting around just the dealerships that are reg with the MTO and did NOT hit the snow, my local dealer prob had 35-50 and my own dealer 50 plus.....$hit the group I hang with probally has 50-60 sleds kicking around(one gent in per has 46 collector) that are all in the data base of 125-145k but never see the snow...I my self have 3 but only ride one. Qu has the enforcement along with the BIG fines....resorts,outfitters etc are all on the federations side....cannot compare a apple to a peanut....we had our chance with the toursit dollars did we manage it correctly and meet the mandates??Time to get out and ride the province not just the backyard,then head to Qu... Lep... I simply said we have a problem with people riding and not buying permits. I never stated or suggested a percentage ever so I am not sure where you are reading 50% non compliance from... sure didn't come from me. What I do know for a fact is that the frequency of coming across people riding without a permit is increasing and doing so quickly. Nowhere near 50%. I base this simply by being out on the trails checking for permits. Four years ago I would go a whole season and maybe come across a couple of people with the permits in their pockets in our area or perhaps one person without a permit. This past season I found six on our trails without permits in a two or three hour window and they weren't all in one group. Three different occasions same day. Each of them had really lame excuses as to why they didn't have them. One tried to tell me he only rode the ice however he was at least 5 or 6 km from the ice. He said he needed to ride the trail to get to the ice. Then his dim witt buddy pipes in... I thought we were going to Bala. This was on C trail north of Port Severn.. As for enforcement you are saying the same as I have heard from everyone who has ridden in Quebec that they have better enforcement, a more significant police presence on the trails and SIGNIFICANT penalties for non compliance. If we had better enforcement and perhaps a $750 or more fine for no permit it wouldn't take too many being nailed to get the message across. Right now the risk of getting caught is low and even if you do many realize there is little that trail patrol can do other than issue a notice of tresspass and tell you that you've been a bad boy. Often they carry money with them to buy a permit in case they are caught. If they aren't they get to ride for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 On the weekend here permit compliance is quite good. Come Monday morning trails are filled with sleds with no permits. I seen a group of students with backpacks on thier back. 10 sleds and no permits. Started checking more sleds and found 12 more sleds out of 20 I seen had no permits. Bumped into another group on a Wednesday after 7 sleds and only 2 had permits. I asked them how come they appeared to not have permits and they told me they were just trying the sleds out for the day, to see if they wanted to buy them or not. They had no Val tags and I bet no insurance either. I bet I seen a few hundred sleds over the course of 3 weeks, that had no permits. They all know, there is no one around mid week during the day to catch them. Your group riders every Wednesday Lep? How many sleds did you see without permits??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doogirl69 Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 On the weekend here permit compliance is quite good. Come Monday morning trails are filled with sleds with no permits. I seen a group of students with backpacks on thier back. 10 sleds and no permits. Started checking more sleds and found 12 more sleds out of 20 I seen had no permits. Bumped into another group on a Wednesday after 7 sleds and only 2 had permits. I asked them how come they appeared to not have permits and they told me they were just trying the sleds out for the day, to see if they wanted to buy them or not. They had no Val tags and I bet no insurance either. I bet I seen a few hundred sleds over the course of 3 weeks, that had no permits. They all know, there is no one around mid week during the day to catch them. Your group riders every Wednesday Lep? How many sleds did you see without permits??? So as I have said before, get off your a$$ and become a Trail Patrol for your Club. Sheeeesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 On the weekend here permit compliance is quite good. Come Monday morning trails are filled with sleds with no permits. I seen a group of students with backpacks on thier back. 10 sleds and no permits. Started checking more sleds and found 12 more sleds out of 20 I seen had no permits. Bumped into another group on a Wednesday after 7 sleds and only 2 had permits. I asked them how come they appeared to not have permits and they told me they were just trying the sleds out for the day, to see if they wanted to buy them or not. They had no Val tags and I bet no insurance either. I bet I seen a few hundred sleds over the course of 3 weeks, that had no permits. They all know, there is no one around mid week during the day to catch them. Your group riders every Wednesday Lep? How many sleds did you see without permits??? Hmmm! I would say that is a problem wouldn't you... if they all bought permits we likely wouldn't have the financial problems we have. A few $750 fines and they would start to think twice about riding without a permit. Add to that the fines for no insurance and current registration. We need tougher penalties and the ability to get them charged much easier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techdenis007 Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 Hmmm! I would say that is a problem wouldn't you... if they all bought permits we likely wouldn't have the financial problems we have. A few $750 fines and they would start to think twice about riding without a permit. Add to that the fines for no insurance and current registration. We need tougher penalties and the ability to get them charged much easier Like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 Local trails = local sales one through trail = no sales not rocket science and the 90s pipe dream has failed, the economics and man power are just not there and it is NO ones fault other than being the cold hearted reality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slomo Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 1. Valtag includes sled registration and trail pass. Mandatory for sleds. 2. Central organization i.e. MTO or Ontario Parks becomes responsible for provincial trunk trails linking areas managed by local trail authorities - much as conservation authorities over see various water way systems. 3. Central trunk trail organization tenders out construction / maintenance of trunk system. Local trail authorities or others may bid on these tenders. Initial tenders set out to construct trails in such a way as to be easier to maintain than current 'rugged' systems in place - alongside existing roads / highways or use of environmentally safe material such as wood chips bring up safety / maintenance specifications. Insurance at some point becomes responsibility of sled owner as per highway vehicles. 4. Portion of permit/valtag money to local clubs/authorities to build/maintain local trail systems. Grants available for district business marketing plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 Like a lot of things... It seemed like a good idea at the time. When things started up, there were promises of local touring loops, and the idea of bringing in tourists to help diversify the economy made sense (to me anyway) And, for $80, $100. $120 a pop, what the heck, lots of people bought in. Then, the price of the permit went to $150, $180 and up and up, while at the same time the local loops were closed up and the clubs focused on the TOP trails, our economy tanked and all the volunteers left town looking for work. The result is what you see today, where it does not make sense for a local (at least where I live) to buy a permit, so the clubs close up (unless you have a miracle worker like Luc). Thats the way I see it anyway. BP that wasn't directed at you BP, ol Panther there, does nothing but trash organized snowmobiling, it just gets old that's all. I understand what your area went through and the fact that the communities don't support the sport in that way. If they did, there would be no problem. The thing that so many fail to realize is that it is up to each club to operate and stand on their own. The club has to be functional to be part of the federation, the federation is not there to build clubs. It is up to each club to build a trail system to satisfy its members, if members aren't happy, they need to help out, that is where the failure was. Maybe because people left town, maybe because they felt they didn't need trails so they didn't support it....I don't know, but I do know that they couldn't support themselves. So then we come to the financial assistance the federation provided, there are mandates to that to, yes we send money to less fortunate districts, and they have to keep up top trails, that was part of the deal, if the federation is taking money from other clubs and be spreading it around, we want an interconnected system. I realize we don't have that, but that was the goal, and I can't see how that is unreasonable. It is hard to take money from other clubs and give it away to less fortunate clubs to build loops and local trails with, the argument is why do they need trails if they have no members? If they had members they would have trails. I know I sound like a big mean bully, but that is how the system has operated and should operate. I realize that allot of people don't understand that, and say that they have to keep up their trails for the tourists that don't buy a permit from them. The downfall in that area comes from all the businesses that reap benefits and don't contribute, and that also comes back to the club, it is the clubs responsibility to solicit businesses and get financial support. The federation offered a program to clubs, to be part of a province wide program, a program that lobbies for government assistance, the best insurance coverage for the rate and advertising to promote the sport, but it is up to the club to take advantage of what the federation provides and make it work for them. So many people think the federation owes the clubs that cannot help themselves, but in all reality, that is unreasonable. I know you see all this in a round about way BP, I just use the opportunity to try and shed light on it for the people that really don't get it. For those of u that still don't understand, the Federation handles money for the insurance, disburses grant money and shortfall funds. Clubs buy their permits from the federation, the clubs purchase price of the permit is determined through the matrix. The federation is not a bank, it does not sit on tons of money, the money is in the clubs and they get it from selling permits, it is a very simple concept and it doesn't need to be made any harder. The federation has tried to help clubs that don't sell permits, but only so much can be done, people don't want to pay more for a permit, but want the federation to supply money to maintain trials where not enough permits are sold. So where exactly does everybody think the federation is going to get the money to maintain these trails? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 Hmmm! I would say that is a problem wouldn't you... if they all bought permits we likely wouldn't have the financial problems we have. A few $750 fines and they would start to think twice about riding without a permit. Add to that the fines for no insurance and current registration. We need tougher penalties and the ability to get them charged much easier Kind of like the distracted driving ticket. $150 fine & no demerit points. Lots of hoopla a week or so ago about the OPP targeting people using cellphones. Well last week I saw a woman driving thru the village yammering on 1. Maybe if Luc's buddy Furious George was still involved w/ provincial politics there would be a sledder @ Queens Park. I did read somewhere that the current premier spent some time @ Constance Lake FN a few years ago a conversation all the way back to her master’s thesis on the grammar of English, based on research she conducted at the Constance Lake First Nation just west of Hearst. So she has to know what a snowmobile looks like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucking Pig Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 that wasn't directed at you BP, ol Panther there, does nothing but trash organized snowmobiling, it just gets old that's all. I understand what your area went through and the fact that the communities don't support the sport in that way. If they did, there would be no problem. The thing that so many fail to realize is that it is up to each club to operate and stand on their own. The club has to be functional to be part of the federation, the federation is not there to build clubs. It is up to each club to build a trail system to satisfy its members, if members aren't happy, they need to help out, that is where the failure was. Maybe because people left town, maybe because they felt they didn't need trails so they didn't support it....I don't know, but I do know that they couldn't support themselves. So then we come to the financial assistance the federation provided, there are mandates to that to, yes we send money to less fortunate districts, and they have to keep up top trails, that was part of the deal, if the federation is taking money from other clubs and be spreading it around, we want an interconnected system. I realize we don't have that, but that was the goal, and I can't see how that is unreasonable. It is hard to take money from other clubs and give it away to less fortunate clubs to build loops and local trails with, the argument is why do they need trails if they have no members? If they had members they would have trails. I know I sound like a big mean bully, but that is how the system has operated and should operate. I realize that allot of people don't understand that, and say that they have to keep up their trails for the tourists that don't buy a permit from them. The downfall in that area comes from all the businesses that reap benefits and don't contribute, and that also comes back to the club, it is the clubs responsibility to solicit businesses and get financial support. The federation offered a program to clubs, to be part of a province wide program, a program that lobbies for government assistance, the best insurance coverage for the rate and advertising to promote the sport, but it is up to the club to take advantage of what the federation provides and make it work for them. So many people think the federation owes the clubs that cannot help themselves, but in all reality, that is unreasonable. I know you see all this in a round about way BP, I just use the opportunity to try and shed light on it for the people that really don't get it. For those of u that still don't understand, the Federation handles money for the insurance, disburses grant money and shortfall funds. Clubs buy their permits from the federation, the clubs purchase price of the permit is determined through the matrix. The federation is not a bank, it does not sit on tons of money, the money is in the clubs and they get it from selling permits, it is a very simple concept and it doesn't need to be made any harder. The federation has tried to help clubs that don't sell permits, but only so much can be done, people don't want to pay more for a permit, but want the federation to supply money to maintain trials where not enough permits are sold. So where exactly does everybody think the federation is going to get the money to maintain these trails? No offence taken Wildman. Between what you've written here and what FreezerBurnt said, I think it pretty well hits the nail on the head. It's almost a chicken vs egg argument. Did the locals opt out because the local loops were gone, or did the loops disappear because the locals left the clubs? Whatever. The folks around here just don't seem to have the interest in it, so I agree, there is no point in the OFSC dumping any more $$$ in this area. This is, by the way, the same reason that i do not believe the Val tag solution is fair. There are way too many snowmobiles out there that DO NOT ever have any intention or chance of riding an OFSC trail. Jack up the fines and put more cops on the trail, whatever. Don't ask people who don't ride the trails to pay for them. BP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 that is right BP, that val tag idea is not fair and I have never agreed with it. User pay, if the user's don't want to foot the bill, then trails close, that is the only fair way. It is happening and will continue to happen, and in the end, all the people that didn't want to pay more for a permit may look in the mirror and see the problem. Nobody buys our sleds for us, but a bunch of us want someone else to pay for the trail system.......can't fix stupid. :Maybe if I can find a 163" 05 chassis to shove my 1035 in I can come up and do some riding around Nipigon with you Bucking Pig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucking Pig Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 that is right BP, that val tag idea is not fair and I have never agreed with it. User pay, if the user's don't want to foot the bill, then trails close, that is the only fair way. It is happening and will continue to happen, and in the end, all the people that didn't want to pay more for a permit may look in the mirror and see the problem. Nobody buys our sleds for us, but a bunch of us want someone else to pay for the trail system.......can't fix stupid. :Maybe if I can find a 163" 05 chassis to shove my 1035 in I can come up and do some riding around Nipigon with you Bucking Pig That'd be fun. Actually, I was out riding on Thursday. Not far, only about 5 miles. But how often do you get say you we're riding on May 2nd? The right answer is out there, although I can't claim to have it. I know what works for me, and trail riding isn't it anymore. For those that still enjoy that, more power to you, and I hope you find the solution. BP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo Doo Posted May 5, 2013 Share Posted May 5, 2013 that wasn't directed at you BP, ol Panther there, does nothing but trash organized snowmobiling, it just gets old that's all. I understand what your area went through and the fact that the communities don't support the sport in that way. If they did, there would be no problem. The thing that so many fail to realize is that it is up to each club to operate and stand on their own. The club has to be functional to be part of the federation, the federation is not there to build clubs. It is up to each club to build a trail system to satisfy its members, if members aren't happy, they need to help out, that is where the failure was. Maybe because people left town, maybe because they felt they didn't need trails so they didn't support it....I don't know, but I do know that they couldn't support themselves. So then we come to the financial assistance the federation provided, there are mandates to that to, yes we send money to less fortunate districts, and they have to keep up top trails, that was part of the deal, if the federation is taking money from other clubs and be spreading it around, we want an interconnected system. I realize we don't have that, but that was the goal, and I can't see how that is unreasonable. It is hard to take money from other clubs and give it away to less fortunate clubs to build loops and local trails with, the argument is why do they need trails if they have no members? If they had members they would have trails. I know I sound like a big mean bully, but that is how the system has operated and should operate. I realize that allot of people don't understand that, and say that they have to keep up their trails for the tourists that don't buy a permit from them. The downfall in that area comes from all the businesses that reap benefits and don't contribute, and that also comes back to the club, it is the clubs responsibility to solicit businesses and get financial support. The federation offered a program to clubs, to be part of a province wide program, a program that lobbies for government assistance, the best insurance coverage for the rate and advertising to promote the sport, but it is up to the club to take advantage of what the federation provides and make it work for them. So many people think the federation owes the clubs that cannot help themselves, but in all reality, that is unreasonable. I know you see all this in a round about way BP, I just use the opportunity to try and shed light on it for the people that really don't get it. For those of u that still don't understand, the Federation handles money for the insurance, disburses grant money and shortfall funds. Clubs buy their permits from the federation, the clubs purchase price of the permit is determined through the matrix. The federation is not a bank, it does not sit on tons of money, the money is in the clubs and they get it from selling permits, it is a very simple concept and it doesn't need to be made any harder. The federation has tried to help clubs that don't sell permits, but only so much can be done, people don't want to pay more for a permit, but want the federation to supply money to maintain trials where not enough permits are sold. So where exactly does everybody think the federation is going to get the money to maintain these trails? Great post Wildman. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo Doo Posted May 5, 2013 Share Posted May 5, 2013 that wasn't directed at you BP, ol Panther there, does nothing but trash organized snowmobiling, it just gets old that's all. I understand what your area went through and the fact that the communities don't support the sport in that way. If they did, there would be no problem. The thing that so many fail to realize is that it is up to each club to operate and stand on their own. The club has to be functional to be part of the federation, the federation is not there to build clubs. It is up to each club to build a trail system to satisfy its members, if members aren't happy, they need to help out, that is where the failure was. Maybe because people left town, maybe because they felt they didn't need trails so they didn't support it....I don't know, but I do know that they couldn't support themselves. So then we come to the financial assistance the federation provided, there are mandates to that to, yes we send money to less fortunate districts, and they have to keep up top trails, that was part of the deal, if the federation is taking money from other clubs and be spreading it around, we want an interconnected system. I realize we don't have that, but that was the goal, and I can't see how that is unreasonable. It is hard to take money from other clubs and give it away to less fortunate clubs to build loops and local trails with, the argument is why do they need trails if they have no members? If they had members they would have trails. I know I sound like a big mean bully, but that is how the system has operated and should operate. I realize that allot of people don't understand that, and say that they have to keep up their trails for the tourists that don't buy a permit from them. The downfall in that area comes from all the businesses that reap benefits and don't contribute, and that also comes back to the club, it is the clubs responsibility to solicit businesses and get financial support. The federation offered a program to clubs, to be part of a province wide program, a program that lobbies for government assistance, the best insurance coverage for the rate and advertising to promote the sport, but it is up to the club to take advantage of what the federation provides and make it work for them. So many people think the federation owes the clubs that cannot help themselves, but in all reality, that is unreasonable. I know you see all this in a round about way BP, I just use the opportunity to try and shed light on it for the people that really don't get it. For those of u that still don't understand, the Federation handles money for the insurance, disburses grant money and shortfall funds. Clubs buy their permits from the federation, the clubs purchase price of the permit is determined through the matrix. The federation is not a bank, it does not sit on tons of money, the money is in the clubs and they get it from selling permits, it is a very simple concept and it doesn't need to be made any harder. The federation has tried to help clubs that don't sell permits, but only so much can be done, people don't want to pay more for a permit, but want the federation to supply money to maintain trials where not enough permits are sold. So where exactly does everybody think the federation is going to get the money to maintain these trails? I agree on the comment you made about where's the money going to come from. We are all aware of rising costs for everything, and i personally think that a cheaper permit price will not solve anything.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted May 5, 2013 Share Posted May 5, 2013 I agree on the comment you made about where's the money going to come from. We are all aware of rising costs for everything, and i personally think that a cheaper permit price will not solve anything.. X2 on that one. Need to hold ground on the permit price and increase it by 75 come dec 1st. Give people a real good incentive to buy early and come up with an even higher on trail price and state that permits aren't available on the trail like Quebec does. No permit you pay 500 for one on the spot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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