skidooboy Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 i know this will come off sounding wrong but, bear with me.... i have only the best intentions in mind. i have no dog in this fight. i have migrated away from "trail riding" town to town. i have mountain/offtrail capable sleds... personally i could care less about losing a trail, because it means more ungroomed powder riding, and exploring where people with trail sleds cannot go, for me. for the past several years, i have not "needed" to buy a permit but, i do it for the good of the club, the disctrict and those that ride the trails in the dub wawa area. the only reason i am passionette about this is, for the future of all sledders in the region, (both canadian and americans), and my friends in the affected areas, that stand to lose alot more than a trail. truely my intentions of bringing this to light, is to help others, not myself. ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo Doo Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 I think it is going to take ALL of us to make it work. Sledders themselves, the OFSC, the volunteers, and yes, maybe we need more $$ from the government. All this talk about Quebec, are they really doing it better? Is there system better than ours? They sure seem to have alot of government involvment! Keep the constructive comments coming guys.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 well I guess reality is setting in eh, many of us that are involved have said that the permit cost is to low to sustain the system we have had. Some want to take the money from other clubs, well a substantial amount is already taken. If more is taken it will be a very short term fix, if the clubs that sell permits surrender more then they will not be able to sustain their own system for their members. If that happen, that will = even less money because the people that where buying will be pissed that their trails are diminishing and not up to standard. It is a very sharp double edged sword. The reality is we can't sustain the system, if there are no clubs and no permit sales, there will be no trails. It sucks, but that is the way it is. Allot of you need to look up the word federation, and understand what it is. To be a member of the OFSC, you need to have a functional club, sell permits and meet the obligations of the federation. The matrix has floated allot of districts for allot of years, the bank accounts are drying up. Even the stronger clubs are seeing harder times. I posted it here before, my club sells around 800 permits, we pay around 95 per permit, we write a cheque to the federation for around $76000.00 and a good portion of that goes to the shortfall fund, the exact fund that supports the less fortunate clubs. Does anyone want to challenge that and say we don't help enough? Akron? This year we will be paying between 115 to 120 per permit, and spending all the time to enter each permit into the pts system, which is a very time consuming task. For all the naysayer that say the permit costs to much, you are either delusional or clueless, I am not sure which. i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nith Valley Sledder Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 If the northern towns are so concerned about about losing the tourist dollars then maybe it is time for the local councils and chamber of commerces to start helping out financially. The have been reaping the benefits of organized snowmobiling and the volunteers for years and laughing all the way to the bank. It has to be hard for the few people in some of these northern clubs to do all of the work themselves while watching everyone else reaping the benefits i.e. freeloading riders, restaurants, motels etc. You can only do so much before you burn out. From this site we know there are some lodge owners that give back to the sport with their time and possibly their funding. They know what they have to lose if the trails close. Too bad they are few and far between. Just dumping more money into the north isn't going to fix the problem. It takes a lot of man hours to keep a trail open. It seems this is the major issue. You aren't likely to see many volunteers running up north for a weekend in the fall to get the trails ready. It has to be done local. The OFSC is a grassroots organization. The northern population isn't holding up their end. The need to buy permits but more importantly they have to volunteer their time. Asking the southern clubs to pay even more to float the northern clubs doesn't cut it. The ridership isn't up there like it is in the south. The southern clubs can groom almost nightly and still can't keep up with the volume. They probably see more sleds in a weekend than a lot of northern trails see in a month. Why should they be concerned about making a nice trail up north so the northern economy can benefit when the money can be used on their own trails to support their own local advertisers and club members. When most of the riders ride local it is unrealistic to tell them you can't keep their trails in nice shape because you had to send the money north so tourists could have a nice ride. Because the riding season is a lot shorter in the south it is more important to have the money to be able to getthe trails in ridable condition as quick as possible. If not, the southern riders will stop buying permits and the whole thing will collapse. No money for anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 The funding is at the end of the rope, just like nithvalley said. Regular grooming has to be maintained in the south otherwise the trails will be so rough, riders will choose the field beside the trail instead. This leads to lost permission on private land (most of the south is private land) and un-necessary re-routes. Heck most clubs have a hard time keeping riders on the trail, when it is smooth. Some trails in the south see several thousand sleds per day and need regular grooming, has to be money left in the bank to do that too. Complex situation. With the so, so winter in the south again, I suspect permit sales could be down again for next season. We need more government funding to keep it going. The few million the federation gets, is a joke. Sleders put more back into the pot, thru fuel tax alone. It is time the federation gets a fair share to keep the system viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slomo Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 While the OFSC was a good organizational structure for its time, this is no longer true. The type of overall thinking and governance needed at this stage of snowmobiling in Ontario is something akin to that behind the Trent-Severn and Rideau systems of canals and waterways. The canal systems are government funded and tax payer supported. They also sell lock passes. Personally I don't mind my tax dollars supporting them as having these water systems in place allows me the potential or the possibility of using them - I don't just consider them as a place for rich people to float their cruisers. The vast majority of sledders are in the south. The loss of trails in the north is a loss of potential for southerners to enjoy these trails whether they use northern trails or not. I would support combining the val tag and trail pass as necessary for all snowmobiles. Tender out the construction and maintenance of snowmobile trails in areas where population is thin. They could hire temporary foreign workers for a couple of months if necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 The risk management type paperwork is enough to drown any volunteer away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 The vast majority of RECREATIONAL sledders are in the south. The loss of trails in the north is a loss of potential for southerners to enjoy these trails whether they use northern trails or not. Fixerated it for ya Slomo. there are probably more sleds owned in the north than the south. but, they use them for everyday activities, work, trapping, fishing, hunting, sustaining their lives through the winter. truely the problem is... in the region we are talking about, there are not enough people to stand up and do the work needed, to keep a provincial wide trail system linked together, north to south. people have to work 50-80 hours a week to make ends meet.... then someone wants them to brush, sign, fix equipment and groom? let alone fight the districts and ofsc red tape to get permits, sell permits, verify their trails have enough snow, signeage ect.... to stay open. where does it end, who else can help? the pool of people and funding is not large enough to "just get more people from the community to help." not many people can do that without losing more than they have. wives, jobs, businesses ect.... example, most mining operations in the north are now are having workers work 28 days on and 14 days off. what would happen if you worked a schedule like that? on your 14 days off, you would have to take care of everything you didnt, while you worked working a month straight, no days off. the last thing most will want to do is, "volunteer" to help open, maintain a trail system for others to use while you work. Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 It is the same all over the province of Ontario Skidooboy, working shifts like that and are not isolated to any 1 region. No time to volunteer and no money to buy a pass, yet they have time to ride their sled. The answers to the problems are right in front of everybodys face. Look at Marathon, Longlac and Gearldton, they have maintained a trail system that is not connected to anything and paid for it strictly on their own. They all managed to sell the mandatory 50 permits per club and are in good standing with the federation. The only benifit they don't receive is shortfall payments. It is possible to fix the problems within each club and district, but it has to come within. Again, I do not want to see trails, clubs and districts close, I ride northern Ontario as much as anybody, but I also am a part of a club and see the logistics.......I am not blind nor stupid, I just understand what is sustainable and what isn't. I feel for Luc, Reg, Russ, Gord and all the others just like them, fighting the uphill battle. The sad part is, the snowmobile community from afar see's it, but their local community's do not. A federation cannot fix that, the federation gives power and tools to make it easier, unfortunately there is no majic wand. The federation worked with the other clubs mentioned, it will work with any club that trys, it just may not be what they are used to having. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 The only suggestion I can make is to review the existing structure for this specific area by a "transportation" specialist. Before anyone dumps on me regarding the merits of a "consultant" (cost, etc.) I'll bet that there are folks in Ontario snowmobiling that have this designation/ ability and would volunteer their time to look into this specific problem. I'm not talking about the usual internet verbiage about studying number of groomers; how they're allocated; how they're used; how they're maintained and repaired; etc. This would be a direct analysis of Folyet - As I recall, Folyet doesn't have a 'tourism' hub that benefits from sledding (dealers; retailers; hotels; etc.). How does this type of region continue as part of our org'n? As others have said, we're only as strong as our weakest link (and I don't mean to denigrate Folyet with that term). Thanks to all in that area for their efforts to date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 The way things are going this area can be, the next caines quest. Can start In the soo and end in hearst. Skidooboy will be the first to sign up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 you are right Canuck, it would be a big help to look at that info. In most cases the district looks after or delegates for dead areas like Foleyet, and in this case they did this past year, for what ever reason it sounds like it is over, could be cash flow, it could be man power, I would guess both, with the long season they may feel the money would be better spent somewhere else? Not all districts are managed equaly though, so at this point it is all speculation, unless someone that was at the district meeting speaks up, I noticed on Luc's blog there is a comment from a person that makes me believe they where at the meeting,or at least have some first hand info. It really is a mess, I wish they would just raise the permit price and see what happens, we have nothing to lose at this point and everything to gain. How much was a Quebec permit this past year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Or we could apply a small fraction of the $585,000,000 spent on not building a power plant west of Toronto to this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 brutal isn't it, there is one shitload of cash wasted in this province........should be mandatory to be middle class to run for parliment, somebody with some idea of what a dollar is worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucking Pig Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Part of the problem is the distances between towns. Why would anybody in Folyette spend $200.00 for the opportunity to ride the same trail out of town and then back again? These northern trails are strictly for touring sledders. When times were good, the other clubs could afford to subsidize the smaller "link" clubs. I am a Northerner and, my whole district is gone. I used to argue against these closures and the folks who said let it close, but I am a realist. We've been three years now without a trail, and I'm ok with it now. I too have a deep snow machine and make my own trail, or use the sled to go to camp or fish or hunt or whatever. I regret that folks like Akron cannot tour up here anymore, but its just not affordable to keep this system open the way it was. I don't agree with the Val tag solution because there are way too many sledders who truly do not use the trails, despite what many of you believe. I think you need to rationalize the system you have left and spend the dollars where they're going to do the best job for you. Apologies to those hard workers like Luc who will likely loose out in that scenario. BP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo Doo Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Mind boggling isn't it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Mind boggling isn't it.. Maybe time to join the fcmq! Then we will get some serious funding! If the permit is raised this year, more sledders will ride without permits next winter! There will be less funding then more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Maybe time to join the fcmq! Then we will get some serious funding! If the permit is raised this year, more sledders will ride without permits next winter! There will be less funding then more! are you sure? how much is the Quebec permit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Part of the problem is the distances between towns. Why would anybody in Folyette spend $200.00 for the opportunity to ride the same trail out of town and then back again? These northern trails are strictly for touring sledders. When times were good, the other clubs could afford to subsidize the smaller "link" clubs. I am a Northerner and, my whole district is gone. I used to argue against these closures and the folks who said let it close, but I am a realist. We've been three years now without a trail, and I'm ok with it now. I too have a deep snow machine and make my own trail, or use the sled to go to camp or fish or hunt or whatever. I regret that folks like Akron cannot tour up here anymore, but its just not affordable to keep this system open the way it was. I don't agree with the Val tag solution because there are way too many sledders who truly do not use the trails, despite what many of you believe. I think you need to rationalize the system you have left and spend the dollars where they're going to do the best job for you. Apologies to those hard workers like Luc who will likely loose out in that scenario. BP Hi BP, good to see you hangin around and contributing to the conversation, I can't argue with anything you say, if the product isn't what the locals want (1 trail) then they won't buy into the product. It is no different then running a store, if there isn't product that people want to buy, they won't shop at your store. Riding trails, the same old 1's gets stale, I ride around home at night during the week, just to get out with friends, the weekend, I tend to travel,but even that is changing, been there done that. We have a warm up shack and a club house, a bunch of shacks around the local area in bush lots on farmers land,makes it kinda fun during the week. I just realy feel bad for the volunteers that have held it all together for all these years. I have no problem with the way the matrix works and sends cash to the less fortunate clubs, but the problem is, the dollar doesn't go as far as it used to......it just takes more to maintain the same...rope is getting short, we are seeing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 are you sure? how much is the Quebec permit 280 before dec ist! Includes personal liability insurance too (worth 120 here in Ontario). Factor that in the permit would cost me 160. They were the first to open in early december and rode to April too! They sold 80,000 full season permits for 2012 2013 season! They are growing and we are shrinking!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 what is the limit on personal liability........don't think it is 1 er 2m, if I remeber right it is like 30k...not enough. Besides the point is they are right in line with us.....if people wanna go, go. Long way for most, and the ones that do go, money isn't the problem, they are seeking something different. We have great trails, I like the Ontario system. I have been to Quebec too, and it is great, but I am not going to travel there 5 er 6 times a year....it is a 2k + trip for me each time, I'll ride here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 what is the limit on personal liability........don't think it is 1 er 2m, if I remeber right it is like 30k...not enough. Besides the point is they are right in line with us.....if people wanna go, go. Long way for most, and the ones that do go, money isn't the problem, they are seeking something different. We have great trails, I like the Ontario system. I have been to Quebec too, and it is great, but I am not going to travel there 5 er 6 times a year....it is a 2k + trip for me each time, I'll ride here. X2. I love districts 5 and 9. Great trails when snow coverage is good. Are people willing to pay 300 for a 4 week season here?? D9 had lots of sledders not purchase permits this year, because of last winter. Now the free weekend is here, more people won't buy again next season. Catch 22. We need snow early before Xmas and the permits will fly off the shelves. Get Xmas break and ofsc will have a banner year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 so what where the final #'s, do you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techdenis007 Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Can't control the weatherman, as much as we'd like to, but yeah, there would be more permit sales if snow came & stayed early. If it weren't for all the rains we had in Dec & Jan, how much snow would your area have ? We lost a full 2 feet in Hearst, imagine if that all stayed, and I mean everywhere. Quebec trails are doing well because Quebec people are pouring money into the system and it's booming for them. I don't know if there's something else going on, but their permit sales are good and they get lots of snow. Not that I'd travel to Quebec for a ride, there's enough to see around our province, but for those wanting a different scenery I have no objection. Our problem is the cost of fuel, lack of volunteers to groom, and the repeated bad starting winters causing low permit sales. Hope someone has a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 so what where the final #'s, do you know? I don't know, what final numbers were. Aren't you heading to the agm? Faceman was saying his club was down 50 percent, back in middle of feb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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