Breaking News!!! No Northern Loop for Next winter.

[Sledguy74]

I'm really not upset over a northern trail close if its not seeing a lot of traffic and the locals are tired of looking after it, that's just a sign of the times!

snowmobiling is expensive and that means less are willing to travel great distances for a trip.

Our trail system needs upgrades in many areas

[white dragon]

trails close in central ont too...new property owner,new development,subdivisions etc..but when riding thru the abitibi forest,that will be there forever...northern trails should be saved,as they may be all thats left in 10 yrs

[Sasquatch777]

As a person who tours for winter enjoyment I have met a great number of tourists on our trails. Course these people did not buy permits from our club. So we can only guess the numbers! But as I don't ride every day or even sometimes every week the numbers could be quite large or those I met where the only ones.

 

As a volunteer and Director I recieved many e-mails over the years from people wishing to ride our trails. Looking for Hotels,gas and food as they plan their trips. RWS has been through our Distric many times and never alone.

 

I fully understand the amount of work and cost to maintain and build trails. I even understand the it up to us to keep the trails open with the permits we sell. Its the we in the south are tired of sending money to the north as we need it more to maintain our trails because of the hard time we are going through. Its the our trails in the south are more important then the ones in the north. Its in this thread and on this forum more times then I like! 

 

Joining the OFSC Family was supposed to support a trail system across the Province of Ontario. The North like the South is hurting as well. Like the south we have people who ride and don't buy a pass! Like the South our groomers break down and our volunteers burn out. Unlike the South we groom and maintain large distances of trails with a much smaller base of riders. We may not groom daily but when we groom we make up for it in distance. We may not have a huge number of riders out on the trails compared to the south.

 

We do however have a large number of touring riders both local and not! The locals buy from our distric the rest may buy from a club down south or a border club. This may help those clubs out but leave a lot of clubs who's trails are being rode out of luck. If those clubs are borderline under the thoughts of many on here its gee let them close. Which then reduces passes all around stressing other clubs and drives them to the breaking point.

 

I hope you guys realise its a domino effect! The North is the Barometer of the OFSC's health! Holes are forming more are coming the cancer is spreading!

[Sasquatch777]

I believe you said you rode a northern loop and in the trip saw a whopping 25 sleds. It is very sad but a reality that it is exceptionally difficult to spend the money required to keep that many km of trail open for just 25 paying riders. Kind of makes it a very exclusive club of elite enjoying the trails while those paying for those trails for those elite 25 are facing much more crowded trails, rougher conditions and financial challenges of their own.

 

A nice thing I guess is I'm thought of as the elite riding around on my rich clubs trails paid for by the poor south.  Hey guess what we are broke as well! I think that was the idea behind the OFSC when they took more money from the club with 50 kms of trail with 1000 permits and less from the club with 500 kms of trails and 100 permits.

[AkronOrange]

 

 

I hope you guys realise its a domino effect! The North is the Barometer of the OFSC's health! Holes are forming more are coming the cancer is spreading!

 

Well said!  How long before the Prius driving, tree hugging, cross country skiing Torontonians with cottages in Muskoka say; "I don't like the noise", "they're a hazard", "not across my property"?  We're all being pushed into those areas where the negatives in congested communities will not be accepted.  The OFSC, Ontario, and the riders should realize the top priority should be the integrity of the system or it will be gone.  All of it.

[Wildman]

Sasquatch777, don't take all this crap personally, the ones making some of these comments do not understand the system, the same as the ones saying the federation needs to change the way they do things. The system works as long as there are permit sales, when sales drop, well we know the rest of the story. There is nothing wrong with supporting the shortfall fund, as long as the money is going to functional clubs that meet the guidlines set forth to be a member club. Where the problem is, some people on here think that the federation should change the way money is dispursed, but they have no clue how the system works or what they are talking about. Their only view is that the federation has no clue how to operate, and the people within the federation are wrecking organized snowmobiling, which couldn't be further from the truth. Everyone needs someone to blame when things go bad, and most fail to look in the mirror. I've said it many times, its a user pay system, if the users don't pay, there will be no system.........seems that is what has been happening the last 5 years eh?

[Canuck]

It's ironic, but the 'north' is where there's consistent snow ....

 

It's also where the trails are shutting down.

[Viperules700]

It's ironic, but the 'north' is where there's consistent snow ....

It's also where the trails are shutting down.

Bottom line is the north isn't buying permits. I know friends near timmins, haven't bought permits in 5 years. They ride the trails free of

charge. More and more people in the north are

doing this. Now the trend is spreading south too.

The whole system is in trouble, if this trend

continues.

[Wildman]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Wildman]

Bottom line is the north isn't buying permits. I know friends near timmins, haven't bought permits in 5 years. They ride the trails free of

charge. More and more people in the north are

doing this. Now the trend is spreading south too.

The whole system is in trouble, if this trend

continues.

 

False statements like that cause problems, there are northern clubs that sell plenty of permits, there are some that struggle to sell the mandatory 50. It is no different in any part of the province, trail permit compliance is down as a whole, it is a province wide problem that hurts clubs that rely on shortfall payments the most. Less income as a whole means less money in the shortfall fund.

[Sledguy74]

 

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I hope you guys realise its a domino effect! The North is the Barometer of the OFSC's health! Holes are forming more are coming the cancer is spreading!

I agree the North in its current state is a barometer but its more a reflection of the economy in the province.

OFSC is experiencing a down sizing in all areas and I don't believe it ever considered that possibility.

My opinion is the OFSC has gone a great job building the organization into what it is today, I remember the years before there even was a OFSC but like many organizations they didn't prepare for current economic conditions.

These conditions won't be improving anytime soon either.

[martin1]

North America was not prepared for the current economic conditions.  This problem is way bigger than OFSC.  Surprised the sled builders are forging ahead with all the new engineering..  No trails-no sleds required.  The downward spiral could be a long way from near the bottom.

[Sasquatch777]

Sasquatch777, don't take all this crap personally, the ones making some of these comments do not understand the system, the same as the ones saying the federation needs to change the way they do things. The system works as long as there are permit sales, when sales drop, well we know the rest of the story. There is nothing wrong with supporting the shortfall fund, as long as the money is going to functional clubs that meet the guidlines set forth to be a member club. Where the problem is, some people on here think that the federation should change the way money is dispursed, but they have no clue how the system works or what they are talking about. Their only view is that the federation has no clue how to operate, and the people within the federation are wrecking organized snowmobiling, which couldn't be further from the truth. Everyone needs someone to blame when things go bad, and most fail to look in the mirror. I've said it many times, its a user pay system, if the users don't pay, there will be no system.........seems that is what has been happening the last 5 years eh?

 

Well you know how it is. Something you love with all your heart is hurting. How do you fix it? Different views all around and yes things do strike home from time to time. I won't get into my views as if you have been reading anything I have posted I think they are clear but unfortunatly not well recieved by many.

 

Wish I could get a thousand riders from the south to buy and ride in NWO. Our trails are pristine and wildly remote for the most part. We work hard to keep them open and do it with a very small volunteer base. I stepped down as a director this year because of burnout and banging my head against the wall. I've been on the exec for 8 years and wore many hats. I now am devoting my time as a volunteer on the trails and some computor work.

 

There are those who say they would pay 350 dollars for a pass. You know I have hung in there since 80 and at 210 I still buy but at 180 I stopped buying my pass for my second sled that the kids use at christmas time when they are home. I don't think I will ever pay 350 for a trail pass because I know there will not be a club left long before it gets that high! From 900 members to under 200 has been painful to watch.

 

Don't take it personal is good advice but hey its hard not too when your on the front lines. When you fight to keep the trails open and fight to keep the equiptment running. Fight to sell passes and fight to keep the non pass riders off the trails. You fight to keep the bush cutters from plowing your trails to gravel ect. ect. As we all know the list is a long one. 

 

Fight just becomes a stressful way of life. Its why I do two or three touring trips a year! Its so rewarding! Hoping next year when I retire to do much more.

[AkronOrange]

Sasquatch777, don't take all this crap personally, the ones making some of these comments do not understand the system, the same as the ones saying the federation needs to change the way they do things. The system works as long as there are permit sales, when sales drop, well we know the rest of the story. There is nothing wrong with supporting the shortfall fund, as long as the money is going to functional clubs that meet the guidlines set forth to be a member club. Where the problem is, some people on here think that the federation should change the way money is dispursed, but they have no clue how the system works or what they are talking about. Their only view is that the federation has no clue how to operate, and the people within the federation are wrecking organized snowmobiling, which couldn't be further from the truth. Everyone needs someone to blame when things go bad, and most fail to look in the mirror. I've said it many times, its a user pay system, if the users don't pay, there will be no system.........seems that is what has been happening the last 5 years eh?

On one point you're right.  I don't understand the system.  I do know and understand systems need to be re-evaluated.  Your insane if you keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect a different result.  (Einstein).  The sysems that worked years ago need to be adjusted for the current conditions.   Less is not better, growth is good.  We have to keep the foundation, without it the structure will crumble.  These all sound like stupid cliche's, but they're true. 

 

But on another you're dead wrong - I do know what I'm talking about.

[AkronOrange]

Bottom line is the north isn't buying permits. I know friends near timmins, haven't bought permits in 5 years. They ride the trails free of

charge. More and more people in the north are

doing this. Now the trend is spreading south too.

The whole system is in trouble, if this trend

continues.

Different problem.  Poachers are poachers and should be dealt with.  The volunteer system needs to adjusted, if you help, you get a discount.  I don't help, charge me more.  I'll bet the northern clubs sell more permits per capita than many of those getting all of the money.

[Wildman]

On one point you're right.  I don't understand the system.  I do know and understand systems need to be re-evaluated.  Your insane if you keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect a different result.  (Einstein).  The sysems that worked years ago need to be adjusted for the current conditions.   Less is not better, growth is good.  We have to keep the foundation, without it the structure will crumble.  These all sound like stupid cliche's, but they're true. 

 

But on another you're dead wrong - I do know what I'm talking about.

so if you admit you don't understand, then how can you possibly know what you are talking about? just saying. To me, it would be pretty hard to pick appart a system I don't understand and then bring up arguements saying that things need to change. The system is very simple, it is extremely hard to do something with nothing. If it was a complex system, I can understand changing things.

    Please answer 1 question Akron, do you think the people involved with running  the OFSC  are stupid people that have no clue?

[AkronOrange]

  On one point you're right. I don't understand the system. I do know and understand systems need to be re-evaluated. Your insane if you keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect a different result. (Einstein). The sysems that worked years ago need to be adjusted for the current conditions. Less is not better, growth is good. We have to keep the foundation, without it the structure will crumble. These all sound like stupid cliche's, but they're true.

  Please answer 1 question Akron, do you think the people involved with running  the OFSC  are stupid people that have no clue?

 

Glad you asked. 

 

These are not stupid people and they do have a clue.  These people have helped me on numerous occasions; they are wonderful people with good intentions.  Same as those who had run Compaq Computers, Xerox and Kodak just to name a few.  They have simply lost sight of the most important objective - to keep this sport alive and re-invent their product to keep up with changing times.  The same as those running the companies I mentioned, who also thought the direction of the company was the most effective. 

 

It's my opinion, that a smaller system is not the answer, there needs to be controlled growth just to account for natural attrition.  The trunk trails should be treated the same as the major highway arteries in Ontario.  If the people in New Liskeard don't register their cars should they stop maintaining highway 11?  If that were to happen then Cochrane would more like Moosonee and we would have small individual communities.  It's the same thing.  There should be trails that are outside of district scutiny and mandatory for the system, separate from district permit sales requirements, the responsibility of the system, regardless of where the permits are sold.  The integrity of the system should be the primary focus as trails die so does this sport.

 

I really do love this sport, all of it; the people the adventure, the challenge and even all of this.  Riding snowmobiles in Northern Ontario is incredible; you can't do this anywhere else in the world.  What bothers me most is that it's dying and there is a cure that just isn't being administered. 

[Wildman]

there have been enough posts on this site that explain the system. If there isn't anybody willing to spend the time to run a club, there is nothing anybody can do to solve that problem........hiway 11 is run by the province,not a bunch of volunteers, the company's you mention, they turn profit and run as a business. You are compairing apples to peanuts

 

go back and read a few threads and understand how the system works. In 2011-12 the equalization payment to districts 13, 14, 15, 16 & 17 combined was $837,282 + grants, groomer funding programs and their permit sales. Don't tell me the federation doesn't care about the health of snowmobiling, we can't send money we don't have. I am sure it is not the federation that has lost sight.

[Viperules700]

There are lots of issue's. The federation is run by volunteers that are very passionate about this sport. Even the president is a volunteer and a women for the first time ever. The system is going to shrink for the next few seasons. That is a fact. The north will loose trails for various reasons. I don't like it either. Bottom line is the system has to remain affordable to everyday riders that use and pay for the system. If we have to pay people to maintain, sign,groom trails. We may as well throw in the white flag now, since the costs would be outrageous (probabily be 2000 per km of trail, per season) which would mean, trail pass would need to be 5 times what they are today, to justify such a requirement. No one would buy a permit and the system would be toast for good under this model. Trails aren't highways.

[02Sled]

Glad you asked. 

 

These are not stupid people and they do have a clue.  These people have helped me on numerous occasions; they are wonderful people with good intentions.  Same as those who had run Compaq Computers, Xerox and Kodak just to name a few.  They have simply lost sight of the most important objective - to keep this sport alive and re-invent their product to keep up with changing times.  The same as those running the companies I mentioned, who also thought the direction of the company was the most effective. 

 

It's my opinion, that a smaller system is not the answer, there needs to be controlled growth just to account for natural attrition.  The trunk trails should be treated the same as the major highway arteries in Ontario.  If the people in New Liskeard don't register their cars should they stop maintaining highway 11?  If that were to happen then Cochrane would more like Moosonee and we would have small individual communities.  It's the same thing.  There should be trails that are outside of district scutiny and mandatory for the system, separate from district permit sales requirements, the responsibility of the system, regardless of where the permits are sold.  The integrity of the system should be the primary focus as trails die so does this sport.

 

I really do love this sport, all of it; the people the adventure, the challenge and even all of this.  Riding snowmobiles in Northern Ontario is incredible; you can't do this anywhere else in the world.  What bothers me most is that it's dying and there is a cure that just isn't being administered. 

Xerox and Kodak are alive and well by the way. They have evolved and diversified. Xerox is one of the largest in business quality print and imaging solutions for example. To compare a provincial government funded system that everyone in the province pays for regardless of whether they drive or not to the OFSC is way off base. If the province wants more money they just dip into the taxpayers pockets a little deeper and they don't have a choice. The OFSC can't simply dip into anyones pocket and if people stop buying permits the revenue source goes away.

 

See how far you get on the roads whether you are in New Liskeard or anywhere else for that fact if you don't keep your car registration up to date. No insurance for example is $5,000 fine, vehicle impoundment and more. If we had similar penalties on the trails and the enforcement presence that they have on the roads it would be a lot closer to being somewhat comparable.

[AkronOrange]

Xerox and Kodak are alive and well by the way. They have evolved and diversified. Xerox is one of the largest in business quality print and imaging solutions for example. To compare a provincial government funded system that everyone in the province pays for regardless of whether they drive or not to the OFSC is way off base. If the province wants more money they just dip into the taxpayers pockets a little deeper and they don't have a choice. The OFSC can't simply dip into anyones pocket and if people stop buying permits the revenue source goes away.

 

See how far you get on the roads whether you are in New Liskeard or anywhere else for that fact if you don't keep your car registration up to date. No insurance for example is $5,000 fine, vehicle impoundment and more. If we had similar penalties on the trails and the enforcement presence that they have on the roads it would be a lot closer to being somewhat comparable.

Xerox and Kodak are alive but they're on life support.  Xerox has just sold their consumer products division to Domtar and Kodak is trying to recover from recent chapter 11.   They are trying to evolve and diversify.  Is this where the OFSC should go?  A struggle to survive?

[AkronOrange]

there have been enough posts on this site that explain the system. If there isn't anybody willing to spend the time to run a club, there is nothing anybody can do to solve that problem........hiway 11 is run by the province,not a bunch of volunteers, the company's you mention, they turn profit and run as a business. You are compairing apples to peanuts

 

go back and read a few threads and understand how the system works. In 2011-12 the equalization payment to districts 13, 14, 15, 16 & 17 combined was $837,282 + grants, groomer funding programs and their permit sales. Don't tell me the federation doesn't care about the health of snowmobiling, we can't send money we don't have. I am sure it is not the federation that has lost sight.

I don't think they don't care, I think they don't know.Why couldn't the trunk trails be run by the Province like the roads? It would be a different funding model all together.  Forget about all of the stuff that got us into this mess.  Start over!  I think everyone can win!

[Wildman]

start over eh....right on, too bad it can't be fixed from behind the keyboard eh  hahahahha

[02Sled]

I don't think they don't care, I think they don't know.Why couldn't the trunk trails be run by the Province like the roads? It would be a different funding model all together.  Forget about all of the stuff that got us into this mess.  Start over!  I think everyone can win!

The province is running a huge deficit and growing debt. They haven't any interest or money to operate a snowmobile trail system. If that did happen the cost would sky rocket phenomenally since the volunteer labour would be gone and you would have union groomer operators making ridiculous amounts of money with guaranteed jobs for life.

[Doogirl69]

There are lots of issue's. The federation is run by volunteers that are very passionate about this sport. Even the president is a volunteer and a women for the first time ever. The system is going to shrink for the next few seasons. That is a fact. The north will loose trails for various reasons. I don't like it either. Bottom line is the system has to remain affordable to everyday riders that use and pay for the system. If we have to pay people to maintain, sign,groom trails. We may as well throw in the white flag now, since the costs would be outrageous (probabily be 2000 per km of trail, per season) which would mean, trail pass would need to be 5 times what they are today, to justify such a requirement. No one would buy a permit and the system would be toast for good under this model. Trails aren't highways.

 

Yes the President is a volunteer position but what about the others below that position in Barrie raking in $150,000 per year? Brenda has been President for a while now.

 

Permit sales have gone down 50%+ over the years but the Barrie office still operates like there are 120,000 permit sales.

 

Cuts need to start at the top.