Breaking News!!! No Northern Loop for Next winter.

[Bucking Pig]

You missed a step. First, we need jobs to bring in the people with the disposable income to care about the trails enough to want volunteer to reopen the the trails. Obviously right now, the interest is not there, or we'd have found a way to keep things open, as Geraldton and Marathon did.

[Sasquatch777]

You missed a step. First, we need jobs to bring in the people with the disposable income to care about the trails enough to want volunteer to reopen the the trails. Obviously right now, the interest is not there, or we'd have found a way to keep things open, as Geraldton and Marathon did!

 

At least you agree, you need volunteers! I did not want to get into all the details of who what and why. That will start another theiving OFSC discussion and I really didn't want to go there! 

[Sasquatch777]

exactly always a catch 22

 

another scenario

 

close local loops also = less permits yet if you don't have the $$$ or volounteers you can't expect to have these loops

 

Is the trails there for the traveling tourist or are they there for the benefit of the local ridership

 

it cost money and takes man power to have trails

 

Our closing of loop trails has hurt us indeed! Everything is a struggle to keep both happy!

[FreezerBurnt]

You missed a step. First, we need jobs to bring in the people with the disposable income to care about the trails enough to want volunteer to reopen the the trails. Obviously right now, the interest is not there, or we'd have found a way to keep things open, as Geraldton and Marathon did.

 

 

As for jobs that is a given

[02Sled]

Kind of what comes first the chicken or the egg.....a whole lot of interdependencies and prerequisites

[FreezerBurnt]

Kind of what comes first the chicken or the egg.....a whole lot of interdependencies and prerequisites

 

 

the egg(clubs) came 1st

 

Clubs started out for local sledders riding locally

 

Then as more and more clubs and trails came to be, they got together with the idea of a provincial trail system for Ontario

[02Sled]

the egg(clubs) came 1st

 

Clubs started out for local sledders riding locally

 

Then as more and more clubs and trails came to be, they got together with the idea of a provincial trail system for Ontario

I know the history but the question comes now how do you get the ball rolling again. The complexion of the sport has changed as well as society. We are much more litigeous than ever before so now it becomes much more complex. Years ago there wouldn't have been land use permits and insurance coverage requirements and so much more. A whole lot more complex if starting from scratch. I hope somehow the clubs or a consolidation of some of the clubs can be resurrected.

[FreezerBurnt]

I know the history but the question comes now how do you get the ball rolling again. The complexion of the sport has changed as well as society. We are much more litigeous than ever before so now it becomes much more complex. Years ago there wouldn't have been land use permits and insurance coverage requirements and so much more. A whole lot more complex if starting from scratch. I hope somehow the clubs or a consolidation of some of the clubs can be resurrected.

no getting the ball rolling again

 

It was a pipe dream that got over hyped in the 90s unfortunately when permits were $40-100 and many new people bought sleds only to realize they cost money, money to run, you can get hurt and it is cold outside etc etc. Now today we have more liabilty , more activities taking our time etc etc

 

and on the bold, LUP Land Use Agreements have been around for decades as well as insurance issue same as this Hydro thing even in the 80s Hydro questioned and brought up issues with clubs

 

Now the solution is to stabilize it and I am sure the FFC is a step in the right direction but it will take time

[AkronOrange]

I have been fortunate enough to ride from New Liskeard to Marathon, then north to Longlac to Hearst and then back to New Liskeard.  What a trip!   I am sad that it is gone, but I am optimistic that you will recognize the loss and resurrect the great loops that once existed.   This is where the future of Ontario snowmobiling lies. 

[Bucking Pig]

At least you agree, you need volunteers! I did not want to get into all the details of who what and why. That will start another theiving OFSC discussion and I really didn't want to go there!

F. U. I never once said anything about OFSC thieving. I have a difference of opinion about where funding should come from and who should pay it. If you're going to flame me, at least try to accuse me of something I actually said.

The death of D16 is not and was not a black and white issue, and it's resurrection, if possible will not be either.

[zoso]

There is a 500 plus km gap in the trail system wawa to thunder bay, how can this be called a province wide system and why do we feed money to district 17 flying them in for meetings, sending them permit money to run trails it is ludicrous to keep supporting an area so far removed?

[Wildbill]

There is a 500 plus km gap in the trail system wawa to thunder bay, how can this be called a province wide system and why do we feed money to district 17 flying them in for meetings, sending them permit money to run trails it is ludicrous to keep supporting an area so far removed?

They are in Ontario they are part of us.

[zoso]

They are in Ontario they are part of us.

Somtimes a cancer must be removed to save the body.

[Canuck]

Zoso,

 

Snowmobile clubs and districts that require more funding than others aren't a disease.  But you knew that.

[sledjunk]

Zoso,

 

Snowmobile clubs and districts that require more funding than others aren't a disease.  But you knew that.

Well said!

[zoso]

Zoso,

 

Snowmobile clubs and districts that require more funding than others aren't a disease.  But you knew that.

Ones that are so far removed and not interconnected to the system that supports them are. Sad reality, but simply because they are in the same province no longer can justify the resource allocation that it takes to keep them alive. District 17 needs to self fund and become a seperate entity. The argument that by buying a pass in district 5 you can use trails that are 1700km away no longer can hold water. They system is strapped for money and if we are to rationalize trails then those that will NEVER be used by the permit buyers paying for them need to go first.

[coach]

Wow, I Just spent an hour or so scanning through this topic, Seems like there is a lot of info and a lot of comment but no real resolution. It would be an interesting statistic to see the % of local riders using these northern trails vs touring riders. I suspect it could be as high as 75% tourist. Being from Southern Ontario the only way we can get a 3 month riding season is to ride the north during March. I love riding Gowganda, Elk Lake and New Liskeard in late March

The sport is changing, how often do you go for a 20 km ride? Most riders won't even start up the sled unless they are going 100 km or more. Maybe the funding formula needs an adjustment. Maybe OFSC needs to look at the trials that actually link cities throughout the entire Province and fund these highways differently than the local club trails. This may in turn force some clubs to reduce the amount of local club trails that just go in circles anyways. I guess what I am saying is that the OFSC may need to govern or limit local trails. Could it be that the more wealthy or well funded clubs have to many kms of trails leading nowhere. Some local trails could always go back to narrower trails that can be maintained with smaller less expensive equipment. 

 

Here is the strange thing. Take a look at the sleds we were riding in the late 70's and early 80's. The quality of the trails was horrendous and we were riding sleds that had virtually no suspension. Today we are riding sleds that have the more suspension and handling capabilities than ever. Most new sleds have at least 136" tracks and are capable of motoring through deep snow. Yet we want to ride these luxurious snowmobiles on flat, perfectly prepared, pristine highways.

 

Don't get me wrong. I love to destination ride, even here in Southern Ontario, but I am certainly not opposed to hitting a small single lane trail that heads to an open field or remote area where we can play around and explore the potential of these great machines. But I don't need a highway to get me there. I don't really care how far I go, but more importantly I want to ride for the day, A few slower trails, a few open fields or bowls to play in, maybe even a fire pit somewhere where I can have lunch and I can still spend the day, go half the distance, burn half the fuel and have just as much enjoyment.  

 

If you have ever ridden in the Haliburton Forest, you will see 3 or 4 different levels of trails from wide groomed highways to single lane trails that get broken through early in the season and hardly ever see a groomer after that. Cool Thing, it doesn't matter which trail you select they all seem to get used.

 

I guess what I am saying is maybe the problem isn't Funding and Lack of Volunteers. Maybe we are trying to maintain a champagne system on a beer budget. When the majority really want Beer anyways.

[Bucking Pig]

Wow, I Just spent an hour or so scanning through this topic, Seems like there is a lot of info and a lot of comment but no real resolution. It would be an interesting statistic to see the % of local riders using these northern trails vs touring riders. I suspect it could be as high as 75% tourist. Being from Southern Ontario the only way we can get a 3 month riding season is to ride the north during March. I love riding Gowganda, Elk Lake and New Liskeard in late March

The sport is changing, how often do you go for a 20 km ride? Most riders won't even start up the sled unless they are going 100 km or more. Maybe the funding formula needs an adjustment. Maybe OFSC needs to look at the trials that actually link cities throughout the entire Province and fund these highways differently than the local club trails. This may in turn force some clubs to reduce the amount of local club trails that just go in circles anyways. I guess what I am saying is that the OFSC may need to govern or limit local trails. Could it be that the more wealthy or well funded clubs have to many kms of trails leading nowhere. Some local trails could always go back to narrower trails that can be maintained with smaller less expensive equipment. 

 

Here is the strange thing. Take a look at the sleds we were riding in the late 70's and early 80's. The quality of the trails was horrendous and we were riding sleds that had virtually no suspension. Today we are riding sleds that have the more suspension and handling capabilities than ever. Most new sleds have at least 136" tracks and are capable of motoring through deep snow. Yet we want to ride these luxurious snowmobiles on flat, perfectly prepared, pristine highways.

 

Don't get me wrong. I love to destination ride, even here in Southern Ontario, but I am certainly not opposed to hitting a small single lane trail that heads to an open field or remote area where we can play around and explore the potential of these great machines. But I don't need a highway to get me there. I don't really care how far I go, but more importantly I want to ride for the day, A few slower trails, a few open fields or bowls to play in, maybe even a fire pit somewhere where I can have lunch and I can still spend the day, go half the distance, burn half the fuel and have just as much enjoyment.  

 

If you have ever ridden in the Haliburton Forest, you will see 3 or 4 different levels of trails from wide groomed highways to single lane trails that get broken through early in the season and hardly ever see a groomer after that. Cool Thing, it doesn't matter which trail you select they all seem to get used.

 

I guess what I am saying is maybe the problem isn't Funding and Lack of Volunteers. Maybe we are trying to maintain a champagne system on a beer budget. When the majority really want Beer anyways.

 

A very thougtful post.  I can't say I don't disagree with your main premise, but along with a new funding formula, there would need to be a new mindset.  Eliminating the local loops is one of the reasons that D16 lost some of it's volunteer base and certainly a large number of the permit buyers.  Very few of us in my town would have called ourselves "destination riders".   Those of us in the north do ride ( I think) somewhat differently.  We can ride from our doorstep in many instances, so riding for even 10 k or less is not unheard of.  If you eliminate the local loops, you will loose a significant proportion of your local riders/permit buyers/volunteers.   Of course, as I pointed out above, that's not the only reason D16 crashed, but it was another nail in the coffin.  Thus, in my opinion, if you only have the trunk trails between towns, the OFSC will need to figure out a way to keep them open with limited local support.  The transfer payments or equalization or whatever it was called help, but there are 1,000,000 issues with that as well.  (Why should my permit $$ go there?  I never ride there).   I don't pretend to have the answer.  I was one of those who helped build the system in my area back in the 90's.  I watched as the permit buyers drifted away with each price increase and each local trail closure.  Throw in the enonomy tanking and a couple of poor snow winters and... RIP D16.  Everyone I used to ride with has either moved away, sold the sled, or like me, just uses them to hunt, fish and go to camp. 

It's going to take a huge effort and different thinking from EVERYONE before we'll ever see much trails in D16 again. 

Sorry for the rambling post, it's just my opinion and that, and $1.39 will get you a litre of gas here in Nipigon. 

BP

[sledjunk]

Wow, I Just spent an hour or so scanning through this topic, Seems like there is a lot of info and a lot of comment but no real resolution. It would be an interesting statistic to see the % of local riders using these northern trails vs touring riders. I suspect it could be as high as 75% tourist. Being from Southern Ontario the only way we can get a 3 month riding season is to ride the north during March. I love riding Gowganda, Elk Lake and New Liskeard in late March

The sport is changing, how often do you go for a 20 km ride? Most riders won't even start up the sled unless they are going 100 km or more. Maybe the funding formula needs an adjustment.

 

This is a big part of Framework for Change

 

 

Maybe OFSC needs to look at the trials that actually link cities throughout the entire Province and fund these highways differently than the local club trails.

 

There are already different rates for Top Trails, Connector Trails, Club Trails and Natural Corridor Trails.

 

This may in turn force some clubs to reduce the amount of local club trails that just go in circles anyways. I guess what I am saying is that the OFSC may need to govern or limit local trails. Could it be that the more wealthy or well funded clubs have to many kms of trails leading nowhere.

 

The selection of trails allows local riders to have choices as to where they ride.  Limit that and we will certainly lose permit sales and these riders.  Also, does any trail really lead nowhere?  Whether it passes through a tree nursery as near Moonbeam or to a scenic lookout, or even just a meandering loop, it provides variety for the riders.

 

Some local trails could always go back to narrower trails that can be maintained with smaller less expensive equipment. 

 

Because of liability concerns, there is a minimum standard that trails must meet as far as width is concerned.  "Smaller, less expensive equipment" might, in fact mean an additional piece of equipment that needs to be purchased and maintained.

 

Here is the strange thing. Take a look at the sleds we were riding in the late 70's and early 80's. The quality of the trails was horrendous and we were riding sleds that had virtually no suspension. Today we are riding sleds that have the more suspension and handling capabilities than ever. Most new sleds have at least 136" tracks and are capable of motoring through deep snow. Yet we want to ride these luxurious snowmobiles on flat, perfectly prepared, pristine highways.

 

Don't get me wrong. I love to destination ride, even here in Southern Ontario, but I am certainly not opposed to hitting a small single lane trail that heads to an open field or remote area where we can play around and explore the potential of these great machines.

 

Especially in Southern Ontario, there are VERY few areas that are truly an open field or bowl.  Most land is privately owned with Land Use Permissions required for the specific use of the trail.  Traveling off trail in these areas is trespassing and often results in loss of permission.

 

But I don't need a highway to get me there. I don't really care how far I go, but more importantly I want to ride for the day, A few slower trails, a few open fields or bowls to play in, maybe even a fire pit somewhere where I can have lunch and I can still spend the day, go half the distance, burn half the fuel and have just as much enjoyment.  

 

If you have ever ridden in the Haliburton Forest, you will see 3 or 4 different levels of trails from wide groomed highways to single lane trails that get broken through early in the season and hardly ever see a groomer after that. Cool Thing, it doesn't matter which trail you select they all seem to get used.

 

I have ridden HF many times and it is great for an early season / late season ride.  But, going around in circles gets old pretty quickly.

 

I guess what I am saying is maybe the problem isn't Funding and Lack of Volunteers. Maybe we are trying to maintain a champagne system on a beer budget. When the majority really want Beer anyways.

 

The problem is exactly funding and lack of volunteers.  The majority of riders really want "Free Beer" and figure that their permit purchase means that they have done their part.  In fact, the volunteers have also purchased their permits, but then go out and spend many hours actually putting the trails in and taking them down.  Even many of the clubs in Southern Ontario face the burnout and lack of volunteers that is the problem up north.

[Sasquatch777]

F. U. I never once said anything about OFSC thieving. I have a difference of opinion about where funding should come from and who should pay it. If you're going to flame me, at least try to accuse me of something I actually said.

The death of D16 is not and was not a black and white issue, and it's resurrection, if possible will not be either.

 

Sigh! When did I say you or flame you? For that matter when did you ever claim or I claim you said the OFSC was a pack of thieves? Think before you reply and stop being so touchy! See what a simple reply starts! I guess I should not reply to anything you post as you seem to think I'm always running you down, when in fact I respect your opinions and the help you gave the club while it existed.

 

On the bright side my wife just handed me my 2014 trail pass! Life is good!

[Sasquatch777]

There is a 500 plus km gap in the trail system wawa to thunder bay, how can this be called a province wide system and why do we feed money to district 17 flying them in for meetings, sending them permit money to run trails it is ludicrous to keep supporting an area so far removed?

 

Grow up!

[coach]

Thanks guys for clearing up some of these items. It's somewhat disturbing that we always come back to the same place. Money and volunteers. My wife and I have been a volunteers for many years in many different organizations we have 3 children and have supported them through all of their sports organizations and other activities. We have held executive positions in most of the organizations at any given time.  I understand the burnout aspect. I also understand that in many cases volunteering comes at a cost. In most cases there is a monetary cost involved usually indirectly.  I can see from your responses that you too have been heavily involved over the years and made these same investments.

 

I am currently on the executive of our local Curling club and my role is to ensure the bar in staffed every night. Last year volunteers provided over 800 hrs of bar service plus at least another 250 hrs of my own time. We have 350 members. the service was provided by 28 members, most of which have other volunteer roles in the club. This is consistent with most other organizations we have volunteered with and snowmobiling is no different. I have been trying to get involved with our local snowmobile club but my other volunteer activities get in the way.

 

So why do we do this. We invest valuable time and energy at no return, and then actually invest more money to volunteer than the guy that just sits back, pays his fees and then whines about the cost???  This is really screwed up. The "Haves" just want to pay for there fun and whine about the cost. The "have nots" are tired of doing all of the work for the Whining "Haves".

 

We have had many discussions at our Curling Club regarding Volunteer recognition. What is the cost of volunteer recognition and when does it change from being "recognition" to be a "paid part time job". We can't find the answer either! What I do know is that the % of volunteers verses the % of users is extremely low. If there was a way of enticing more volunteers by recognition, possibly a reduced permit fee for a minimum amount of hours provided it would help.

 

Society is changing. I think the new mentality is more of a "what's in it for me' attitude and as much as we don't like it we have to recognize that. The people that can afford it are more willing to just pay for play and let someone else do the work. I have never expected to gain anything in return for my time than a hand shake, a Thank You, and the feeling that I have contributed to the betterment of my family and community. Unfortunately that mentality is dwindling.

 

So unless people want to do more, or expect less. Conversations like this will never end. The people that need to hear this aren't reading this anyways. They are likely out enjoying themselves while we try to figure out a solution. 

[skidooboy]

people saying we should close this, or close that trail, district ect... are nothing more than selfish, what's in it for me people. how about this, what if your district, club, or local trail was next on the chopping block???  you would be crying to the high heavens, not my trail....

 

pretty soon with all this me, me, me thinking, the only areas to have trails will be southern trails with no long term snow season, and when they do have snow it will be so packed with the not in my back yard people, the masses will leave the sport. then you will have total collapse.

 

it is a nasty downward spiral. there is no end in sight especially with this type of attitude and thinking.  

 

BP, i dont think you took what sasquatch typed correctly. he was agreeing with you but, didnt want to open a can of worms when the others piled on board like they are starting to now. it is very hard to read and understand the typed/printed word without seeing tone or body language. it's all good my friend.

 

 

i know a few would like to just close the northern districts, and keep all their funds local. this is not the answer to keeping a inter-provincial trail system functional without ALOT of dead ends, and trails to nowhere.

 

in fighting like this and the non respect that follows, is one of the BIG reasons the northern volunteers are giving up.

 

you alone are killing the linked trail system in ontario. enjoy riding your farm fields. the end is comming.

 

Ski

[AkronOrange]

people saying we should close this, or close that trail, district ect... are nothing more than selfish, what's in it for me people. how about this, what if your district, club, or local trail was next on the chopping block???  you would be crying to the high heavens, not my trail....

 

pretty soon with all this me, me, me thinking, the only areas to have trails will be southern trails with no long term snow season, and when they do have snow it will be so packed with the not in my back yard people, the masses will leave the sport. then you will have total collapse.

 

it is a nasty downward spiral. there is no end in sight especially with this type of attitude and thinking.  

 

BP, i dont think you took what sasquatch typed correctly. he was agreeing with you but, didnt want to open a can of worms when the others piled on board like they are starting to now. it is very hard to read and understand the typed/printed word without seeing tone or body language. it's all good my friend.

 

 

i know a few would like to just close the northern districts, and keep all their funds local. this is not the answer to keeping a inter-provincial trail system functional without ALOT of dead ends, and trails to nowhere.

 

in fighting like this and the non respect that follows, is one of the BIG reasons the northern volunteers are giving up.

 

you alone are killing the linked trail system in ontario. enjoy riding your farm fields. the end is comming.

 

Ski

You nailed it Ski.  This is not about permit sales and where people want to ride, it's about survival.  I have, like many of you, have been fortunate enough to see the existence of a trail system.  It doesn't exist anymore.  This year C101F was closed because Folyette didn't sell enough permits.  Are you kidding?  No one lives in Folyette.  The same was true with Longlac.  This is the reason we lost half-way; not having any concern for the greater good. 

I live here in the States and find it hard to believe that you no longer care about encouraging "us" to come up and spend our disposable income.  It's rather insulting, like you're too good for us. 

 

What a shame!

[Sasquatch777]

 

Here is the strange thing. Take a look at the sleds we were riding in the late 70's and early 80's. The quality of the trails was horrendous and we were riding sleds that had virtually no suspension. Today we are riding sleds that have the more suspension and handling capabilities than ever. Most new sleds have at least 136" tracks and are capable of motoring through deep snow. Yet we want to ride these luxurious snowmobiles on flat, perfectly prepared, pristine highways.

 

Don't get me wrong. I love to destination ride, even here in Southern Ontario, but I am certainly not opposed to hitting a small single lane trail that heads to an open field or remote area where we can play around and explore the potential of these great machines. But I don't need a highway to get me there. I don't really care how far I go, but more importantly I want to ride for the day, A few slower trails, a few open fields or bowls to play in, maybe even a fire pit somewhere where I can have lunch and I can still spend the day, go half the distance, burn half the fuel and have just as much enjoyment.  

 

 

I have a 144 track and a suspension designed for rough trail, off trail use and yet I want smooth well groomed trails. Why would I want rough trail? Trails that do get tore up are made passable by that ferrari of a sled. To play in the deep snow is fun for awhile and breaks up the day but I sure as hell don't want to do it all day. I also have a 4x4 truck yet like my sled I want the highways to be nice and smooth as that is where I drive it all the time. I don't off road my truck ever! Been there broke that!

 

I do all kinds of riding but without the trails it goes back to the way it was before the OFSC and destination riding ends, Sure you can do all the other kind of riding but along with that comes the breakage and pulled muscles. Fun when I was 20 years old but at my age the old way of riding is fun in very short durations. I sit on my sled and watch the youngsters play while I record. I get way more enjoyment out of that then having a coronary stuck in four feet of snow with my A arm torn off by a rock I could not see. No OFSC trails means sledding is dead for a huge amount of people around here, I guess those would be most of the guys buying passes every year. We have an old boys club (65 to 80 year olds) that rides together in a group for lunch to the neighboring towns around us. They would stop riding as groomed trails are their only form of winter recreation! Mostly made up of the original volunteers who built and maintained the trails.

 

I love trails both wide and groomed and narrow turkey trails going into some lake to go fishing or to play in the powder but the biggest call is the grommed trail. It is what has opened up the wilderness to travel long distances, not going in circles in your back yard or having only the lake you can travel any distance on. The groomed trails is why most of us buy the new 15 to 20 thousand dollar sleds get ride of the OFSC trails and sled sales will all but dry up! Except for the few trappers and fisher men who ride 10 to 20 year old skandics and bearcats with no though of replacing them, (most fisherman now build shacks and stick them on the lakes forming shanty towns) there will be no one riding or buying new sleds. Sure the youth will get their mountin sleds with 152 tracks and 2 to 3 inch paddles that spend most of the time in the back of the half ton for weight. Mostly because the youth have to work their butts off to afford the payments on the truck and the toys along with the rent utilitys and bar bills. Heck Unless its payday most of them can't afford a tank of gas to go riding never mind two tanks and a meal to go for a day run. Don't even ask if they want to do a weekend run because they can't afford the 300 bucks that will cost. The old farts will just sit by the fire and save their money and in the end its those old farts that have the most money to spend.

 

This old fart put 3500 miles on his sled spent 12 nights in hotels and bought about 60 meals along with gas for the truck to haul the trailer. Would be lucky if 100 to 200 miles of those 3,500 where spent on non OFSC trails. Two trains of thought on fun for the day!