Breaking News!!! No Northern Loop for Next winter.

[The Groomer Guy]

Hey Guys, we got some bad news that the C101F will be closed next winter, we need this trail as it will close a big loop in Northern Ontario, this is not good, I'm trying to get the word out to all of the riders that use this trail and I need them to say something. here's the link to my blog with an update to it I will be posting more info as I get it. http://groomerguy.blogspot.ca/2013/04/breaking-news-no-northern-loop-next_30.html

[Wildman]

I wondered if that would happen after the loss of the Folyet club. Was it too much for Timmins and Chapleau to split? it is a ton of land to cover and not the nicest to be running a groomer down.

[skidooboy]

it is VERY TAXING to the two clubs involved. 175 miles between the two towns. plus timmins has to link north, south, and east yet. then add on the stress of the chapleau club grooming 60+ miles to the dalton area (west to Dub), and then from chapleau to aubrey falls when conditions allow (110 miles ONE WAY). a big undertaking for ANY CLUB. dubreuilville, wawa, hornepayne, white river, manitouwadge ect... ect.... all know this FIRST HAND. more and more clubs are feeling this in the north year after year. something will need to be addressed or there will only be "regional/local" trail systems in ontario.

southerners cant imagine clubs grooming 60-100 miles one way to a neighboring community but, that is what is killing the northern clubs/districts.

the turn of the coin is, without these major links, many tourist loops and dollars are on the line. without tourists (local, regional, and out of province), no permits, without permits, no grooming, without grooming, no provincial interconnected trail system.

very bad downward spiral, with no end in sight, nor a marketable fix on the table. Ski

[Viperules700]

Bad news. It is going the way of the d trail after halfway heaven closed. Will be another reason locals won't buy permits next year either. Trail system is still strong and majority of riders don't ride above northbay. I have put on 60,000kms over the last 20 years and have only rode as far north as shinning tree.

[Canuck]

Thanks for the info Luc, as bad as it is.

I'm sure that the northern clubs and districts have brainstormed to come up with a solution. Any input from us southern riders is just internet advice, and that's not what you need.

Thanks for the real time and effort spent by you folks.

[Turbo Doo]

X2 Canuck..

This is very very sad news. Some of the nicest trails and country in the Province period. Very sad indeed. The southern riders who do not venture further north are most definalty missing alot.. Its a shame to see it closed, but without local support?? I do understand the amount of work it takes to keep that area open, and you cannot expect the other clubs to help out, when they are probally just hanging in there as well..

Luc, hats off to you man. I do not know how you do it year after year. A big THANK YOU for keeping the Dub area good to go. With out you, WOW!..Please keep up the good work, and lets pray the clubs and District can resolve this.

I for one am in for something like a toll for the northern clubs. I would not mind 1 bit to pay a small fee, over and above the trail pass fee, as long as the money was spent in good fashion.

Here's a question thought, is this a money thing, or lack of local support?

[Turbo Doo]

Luc, how far do you groom that way? Does the foleyet club groom your way, then over to chapleau? And what will happen to the trail sections that the other clubs groom?

[skidooboy]

iq, if you look at a map, dub is west of chapleau about 115-120 miles (not km's). foleyet is east of chapleau just over half way to timmins (175 miles from chapleau to timmins). one of dubs groomers is located in missanabbi to groom from missanabbi to the halfway point to chapleau. it is 85-90 miles (not km's) from missanabbi to chapleau. no other clubs between.

foleyet is 100 miles east of chapleau, then it is another 75 to timmins. no clubs between any of the three communities. there is no one else to help, if the 3 communities and their clubs cant help themsleves. if the district or the ofsc doesnt step up to offer help, this will officially close "the big northern loop" and the northeasts way to get to the northern corridor without an up and back (read: no loop) trip plan.

here lies the problem of the northern links. too far of a distance town to town with no help. again, this is something most people dont fathom... they have never saw the near north, and it's wilderness riding and settings. people dont understand when they live in a populated area... that another area relatively close to them, could be 50-100 miles from the nearest community.

Ski

[Viperules700]

It Is a combination of very little local support as far as trail permits go. Foylet didn't even sell one trail permit. We know for a fact the locals are riding without permits for various reasons. I hope something can be worked out, but without local support, it will take a tremendous amount of

capital to pay people to do the work, inorder to

keep loop open. Halfway heaven went the exact same way, except it was a business that closed.

Hopefully north will pickup as far as the economy goes and that will help out, but with

electricity rates so high, I can't see the mills

opening back up anytime soon. Without luc, this loop would have been done years ago. I sure hope it can be saved. Could get highschool students from timmins to help clear trail in late fall, in exchange for volunteer credits. Groom once every few weeks, to keep it decent.

[dweese]

southerners cant imagine clubs grooming 60-100 miles one way to a neighboring community but, that is what is killing the northern clubs/districts.

I've got 3 clubs around me that don't even have 60-100 miles of trails in total... Let alone that in a one way distance.

[Techdenis007]

I don't believe the economy is related to this problem. Mills were a 50's to 90's thing, then started petering off in around 2000. They've since improved, some are even opening back up recently. Mining Gold is in now, Timmins is going strong, along with Kirkland Lake, Dubreuilville and Wawa. If mills open back up, then great.

The OFSC is going to have to realize that the Northern Ontario clubs with long runs like this are in need of more funding. If a club closes in the South, the surrounding clubs can pick it up easy enough. Not the case up here. We have longer riding seasons, more trail loops, longer trails. An increase in permit costs isn't necessarily going to solve the problem, but maybe the way funds are allocated would help.

It's enough that the Manitouwadge trails are gone, we don't want to lose any more.

[white dragon]

I don't believe the economy is related to this problem. Mills were a 50's to 90's thing, then started petering off in around 2000. They've since improved, some are even opening back up recently. Mining Gold is in now, Timmins is going strong, along with Kirkland Lake, Dubreuilville and Wawa. If mills open back up, then great.

The OFSC is going to have to realize that the Northern Ontario clubs with long runs like this are in need of more funding. If a club closes in the South, the surrounding clubs can pick it up easy enough. Not the case up here. We have longer riding seasons, more trail loops, longer trails. An increase in permit costs isn't necessarily going to solve the problem, but maybe the way funds are allocated would help.

It's enough that the Manitouwadge trails are gone, we don't want to lose any more.

x2

[Viperules700]

Thanks for info Dennis. It is great to have people like yourself dedicated to giving us info about your area. I am glad to hear the economy seems to be doing better lately too. Hopefully a solution can be made to save the trail, since it is close to timmins and is a vital passage for tourist riders, like myself that hope to come north in the future. I wonder how many permits timmins sells or polar bears. Anyone know for sure?

[Wildman]

Denis makes some very good points. I would like to point out the fact that funding is not the issue or at least not the whole issue. Man power is the biggest issue, 2 people to look after that trail is not enough. The district had the funding to keep it going.

Just think about this for a minute, if a club has low permit sales, only a couple members to do all the work and can't keep the club going, where is the real problem? Do you really think the only people riding the trails are tourests and the few members from the club? With no community support, is the club really needed by anybody other than the touring sledder?

I am not saying I want to see the loss of trails and clubs, but sometimes this needs to be looked at in a realistic manner. We can't look at it just as the way we personally want to see it. If I had it my way ther would be more trails in northern ontario, but that is not the way it is or can be. Really, if it was sustainable, we would'nt be having these conversations.

[Sasquatch777]

Sigh! Welcome to my world! Everytime a club closes we take over. Then Districts close! Who's next on the list! Oh and the Cross Province trail closed years ago. District 17 was cut off from the rest of the Province way back then!

[02Sled]

It Is a combination of very little local support as far as trail permits go. Foylet didn't even sell one trail permit. We know for a fact the locals are riding without permits for various reasons. I hope something can be worked out, but without local support, it will take a tremendous amount of

capital to pay people to do the work, inorder to

keep loop open. Halfway heaven went the exact same way, except it was a business that closed.

Hopefully north will pickup as far as the economy goes and that will help out, but with

electricity rates so high, I can't see the mills

opening back up anytime soon. Without luc, this loop would have been done years ago. I sure hope it can be saved. Could get highschool students from timmins to help clear trail in late fall, in exchange for volunteer credits. Groom once every few weeks, to keep it decent.

Devil's advocate...Locals are riding without permits. Foylet didn't sell any permits. If nobody is buying permits then theoretically there essentially shouldn't be anyone on those trails. Those traveling from the "south" would not be regulars simply because of distance. If they have a season or even part of a season without trails what would be the outcome. Would the locals realize what they had once it was gone and possibly step up, volunteer and pay for permits?

[02Sled]

I don't believe the economy is related to this problem. Mills were a 50's to 90's thing, then started petering off in around 2000. They've since improved, some are even opening back up recently. Mining Gold is in now, Timmins is going strong, along with Kirkland Lake, Dubreuilville and Wawa. If mills open back up, then great.

The OFSC is going to have to realize that the Northern Ontario clubs with long runs like this are in need of more funding. If a club closes in the South, the surrounding clubs can pick it up easy enough. Not the case up here. We have longer riding seasons, more trail loops, longer trails. An increase in permit costs isn't necessarily going to solve the problem, but maybe the way funds are allocated would help.

It's enough that the Manitouwadge trails are gone, we don't want to lose any more.

And the saga goes round and round. Damned if you do damned if you don't. I read with interest varying perspectives. Talk of an increased val tag cost going to fund trails is criticised as "why should those who allegedly or actually don't ride the trails pay for them" even partially with the val tag. Then the debate of the south sending money to support the north that they don't ride in comes into play with some saying they shouldn't pay for trails they will never ride especially when the locals are riding without permits and their own club in the south is tight on cash.

No silver bullet. No easy answers. There has to be some way that the "north" can be more self sustaining. Please note I did say more and not totally.

[AkronOrange]

Another one bites the dust.

How many will continue to ride the 25 miles to get to 3 Bears. 3 Bears for Gods sake, a staple in Northern Ontario riding: soon to be gone? Marathon, Longlac, Manitouwadge, Hillsport, Folyet, these are all places I have ridden to in thelast 5-7 years. I can't get to any of them on OFSC trails in 2014. The trail system is shrinking, this is not good news. The north should become "more" self sustaining, the other clubs need to become "more" understanding. I "think" you all still want my US dollars, I "think" you all want a trail "system". The system is disappearing and so are the riders. It's not about the economy, it's not about who is paying for what it's about the system. Screw the weekend warriors, they will come and go, those who love the will stand the test of time.

BTW - I just bought a new sled - this really pisses me off!

[Techdenis007]

Devil's advocate...Locals are riding without permits. Foylet didn't sell any permits. If nobody is buying permits then theoretically there essentially shouldn't be anyone on those trails.

Don't forget ... Foleyet is just a drop in the ocean, a blink and you've missed it. Maybe 5 or 6 streets, don't expect many permit holders there, much less trail cops to enforce permit offenses.

Another one bites the dust.

How many will continue to ride the 25 miles to get to 3 Bears. 3 Bears for Gods sake, a staple in Northern Ontario riding: soon to be gone? Marathon, Longlac, Manitouwadge, Hillsport, Folyet, these are all places I have ridden to in thelast 5-7 years. I can't get to any of them on OFSC trails in 2014. The trail system is shrinking, this is not good news. The north should become "more" self sustaining, the other clubs need to become "more" understanding. I "think" you all still want my US dollars, I "think" you all want a trail "system". The system is disappearing and so are the riders. those who love sport the will stand the test of time.

I ABSOLUTELY want your dollars and our trail system. Even if you spend only one night in a local community, the community benefits from fresh funds. Takes pennies to make dollars. And I believe there's a good argument to have a fee attached to your snowmobile annual MTO sticker that goes directly to your trail pass. Sled is registered, yes, $50 more for every registered sled and there's your trail system. Make it better ... Add a $50 surcharge to opt out of the trail system. Pretty sure that $50 per registered unit will outweigh $260 per unit with a trail pass over the provincial average.

And the saga goes round and round. Damned if you do damned if you don't. I read with interest varying perspectives. Talk of an increased val tag cost going to fund trails is criticised as "why should those who allegedly or actually don't ride the trails pay for them" even partially with the val tag. Then the debate of the south sending money to support the north that they don't ride in comes into play with some saying they shouldn't pay for trails they will never ride especially when the locals are riding without permits and their own club in the south is tight on cash.

I've decided to attack this point head-on. My old Cheyenne had a pass as of mid-January. I admittedly cheated the system with the F-DLX, (which I received as a gift from my boss around March 2), by using some local trails without a pass. I couldn't justify a $260 tag for 3 or 4 weekends of riding (which turned out to be much more than that). Fortunately for me it becomes 15 years old next year, meaning Vintage status for both sleds. We all cheat something at sometime, and not always with bad intentions. My bad.

However I've decided that I wanted to see more done in our local clubs and have forwarded my intent to become a volunteer starting next season. How much involvement that includes will be decided next season, but at least the door has been opened. I want to see that the system is there for my kids to enjoy later on when they are of age to ride, there's no safer way to snowmobile than on club trails.

Denis makes some very good points. I would like to point out the fact that funding is not the issue or at least not the whole issue. Man power is the biggest issue, 2 people to look after that trail is not enough. The district had the funding to keep it going.

Just think about this for a minute, if a club has low permit sales, only a couple members to do all the work and can't keep the club going, where is the real problem? Do you really think the only people riding the trails are tourests and the few members from the club? With no community support, is the club really needed by anybody other than the touring sledder?

2 big points there. Again there needs to be a greater volunteer presence and some new blood in the pool. My wanting to volunteer in Hearst and Mattice won't cure the Foleyet trail issues, but if the message gets out and enough people hear about the problem, maybe some will step up to the plate. I personally don't like to whine to someone else when something's wrong, I prefer to just go out and fix the problem rather than bitch about it. I'd rather be part of the solution, than part of the problem.

[02Sled]

Another one bites the dust.

How many will continue to ride the 25 miles to get to 3 Bears. 3 Bears for Gods sake, a staple in Northern Ontario riding: soon to be gone? Marathon, Longlac, Manitouwadge, Hillsport, Folyet, these are all places I have ridden to in thelast 5-7 years. I can't get to any of them on OFSC trails in 2014. The trail system is shrinking, this is not good news. The north should become "more" self sustaining, the other clubs need to become "more" understanding. I "think" you all still want my US dollars, I "think" you all want a trail "system". The system is disappearing and so are the riders. It's not about the economy, it's not about who is paying for what it's about the system. Screw the weekend warriors, they will come and go, those who love the will stand the test of time.

BTW - I just bought a new sled - this really pisses me off!

At what point do you draw the line on the cost / value proposition in terms of users of those trails. I want a Maseratti but will never have one. I like the concept of having all of these northern trails stay in place. I also am a realist. How many people riding those trails does it take to justify keeping them going. As noted Foylet didn't sell even one permit.

These costs will be low since they are from 2009.

$2000. . . . . . . . . . Cost per kilometre to build a new trail.

$496. . . . . . . . . . . Annual dollar per kilometre cost to operate OFSC trails.

So now I see a description from Skidooboy above of distances. Perhaps 400 miles or about 650 km for the trail in question.

650 km @ $496 per km = $322,400 to maintain those trails for the season 2009. 4 years later lets add minimum 15% to that and you have $370,760

So how many permit buying riders do you need to justify keeping those trails open? How do you ask clubs that will see perhaps 600 sleds or more on their trails in one day and are having financial problems of their own to send money they don't have spare to a club that wants to keep these trails open for perhaps 50 paid permit riders on a weekend and essentially no paid permit riders on a weekday.

Like I said.. no easy answers but at some point in time you can't keep throwing money into something that just isn't sustainable. Perhaps more people need to follow the buy where you ride premise if there are so many ardent riders in this area. If everyone who claims they ride in the area were to buy a permit then perhaps they wouldn't have a problem with finances. But then there is also the distinct lack of volunteers with few exceptions like Groomer Guy Luc has probably been the driving force keeping his club alive for years.

[02Sled]

Don't forget ... Foleyet is just a drop in the ocean, a blink and you've missed it. Maybe 5 or 6 streets, don't expect many permit holders there, much less trail cops to enforce permit offenses.

I ABSOLUTELY want your dollars and our trail system. Even if you spend only one night in a local community, the community benefits from fresh funds. Takes pennies to make dollars. And I believe there's a good argument to have a fee attached to your snowmobile annual MTO sticker that goes directly to your trail pass. Sled is registered, yes, $50 more for every registered sled and there's your trail system. Make it better ... Add a $50 surcharge to opt out of the trail system. Pretty sure that $50 per registered unit will outweigh $260 per unit with a trail pass over the provincial average.

I've decided to attack this point head-on. My old Cheyenne had a pass as of mid-January. I admittedly cheated the system with the F-DLX, (which I received as a gift from my boss around March 2), by using some local trails without a pass. I couldn't justify a $260 tag for 3 or 4 weekends of riding (which turned out to be much more than that). Fortunately for me it becomes 15 years old next year, meaning Vintage status for both sleds. We all cheat something at sometime, and not always with bad intentions. My bad.

However I've decided that I wanted to see more done in our local clubs and have forwarded my intent to become a volunteer starting next season. How much involvement that includes will be decided next season, but at least the door has been opened. I want to see that the system is there for my kids to enjoy later on when they are of age to ride, there's no safer way to snowmobile than on club trails.

2 big points there. Again there needs to be a greater volunteer presence and some new blood in the pool. My wanting to volunteer in Hearst and Mattice won't cure the Foleyet trail issues, but if the message gets out and enough people hear about the problem, maybe some will step up to the plate. I personally don't like to whine to someone else when something's wrong, I prefer to just go out and fix the problem rather than bitch about it. I'd rather be part of the solution, than part of the problem.

A few more with a positive attitude like you and the desire to make it work and perhaps they will actually be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel and recover from the problems facing the area.

[Viperules700]

Tough problem for sure. If the links aren't in place then the touring riders can't get into towns to spend money either. I know alot of touring riders never go past northbay, since there isn't alot of options for places to stay and eat at. Quebec is amazing and they get alot of federal dollars for thier system and local support too. Heck they have small towns in northern part of the province too and don't seem to have these issue's. I know most of the province gets a longer ride season then Ontario, which helps with permit sales, they include the liability issuance too. Has me puzzled! Soon they will be the next world leader in sledding trails.

[Turbo Doo]

iq, if you look at a map, dub is west of chapleau about 115-120 miles (not km's). foleyet is east of chapleau just over half way to timmins (175 miles from chapleau to timmins). one of dubs groomers is located in missanabbi to groom from missanabbi to the halfway point to chapleau. it is 85-90 miles (not km's) from missanabbi to chapleau. no other clubs between.

foleyet is 100 miles east of chapleau, then it is another 75 to timmins. no clubs between any of the three communities. there is no one else to help, if the 3 communities and their clubs cant help themsleves. if the district or the ofsc doesnt step up to offer help, this will officially close "the big northern loop" and the northeasts way to get to the northern corridor without an up and back (read: no loop) trip plan.

here lies the problem of the northern links. too far of a distance town to town with no help. again, this is something most people dont fathom... they have never saw the near north, and it's wilderness riding and settings. people dont understand when they live in a populated area... that another area relatively close to them, could be 50-100 miles from the nearest community.

Ski

Thanks ski, got my towns mixed up..

[Turbo Doo]

Tough problem for sure. If the links aren't in place then the touring riders can't get into towns to spend money either. I know alot of touring riders never go past northbay, since there isn't alot of options for places to stay and eat at. Quebec is amazing and they get alot of federal dollars for thier system and local support too. Heck they have small towns in northern part of the province too and don't seem to have these issue's. I know most of the province gets a longer ride season then Ontario, which helps with permit sales, they include the liability issuance too. Has me puzzled! Soon they will be the next world leader in sledding trails.

Those touring riders that NEVER go past North Bay really have not seen HALF of what this province has to offer. And i will argue that theres plenty of places to stay and eat NORTH of NORTH BAY..

Also, what about the buisnesses in and around these towns that depend on the winter income.HMMM...You would think that they would like to do something.(if they are not already doing so).

I think theres plenty of towns and communities around the province with good experience on what it takes. Take for instance the MoonBeam clubhouse and trail network. Seems like the entire community is involved. Or how about Gowganda lake Camp and Elk Lake Cabins, 3 Bears etc etc. They support and help with maintaining trails, groomer stuff etc.. All very good models of what it takes..

[skidooboy]

folyette is a town of a few hundred people (MAYBE). it is tiny.... so the majority of people "passing through" are tourists, regional, provincial and out of province.

if this trail ends... the "big loop" ends. people will not be able to loop from wawa to dub, hornepayne, hearst, kap, smooth rock, timmins, chapleau and back to dub and wawa. AND not many people will ride out and back from wawa to timmins and back, or from the soo/elliot lake area.

THIS IS A TOURIST DESTINATION LOOP TRAIL. MANY MAGAZINE ARTICLES HAVE BEEN PRINTED, MANY TV MAGAZINE EPISODES MADE ON THIS LOOP. IT WILL BE A HUGE LOSS TO THE REGION FINANCIALLY FOR WINTER TOURIST SEASON.

if you want to go to timmins... you will have to trailer to elliot lake or even sudbury. with no loop, there will be no need to groom the F trail north of aubrey falls, it too will be come a one way dead end trail, or some iron butt, die hard retirees, might make it a huge 10 day/2 week loop. but, for the most part people wont take that much time off for "winter travel"

I said this when the halfway haven trail closed and i will reiterate it now.... THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINING... WHO'S GOING TO BE NEXT TO GO DOWN, OR CLOSE? WHEN WILL IT BECOME IMPORTANT TO SAVE THE INTERCONNECTED PROVINCIAL TRAIL SYSTEM?

when critical links are no longer utilized, it will take more money, and longer times, requiring more man power, to REOPEN them when they are deemed "needed" again. IF THE SYSTEM CAN EVER BE RECOVERED AGAIN.

I really believe the ofsc see this, and that is the number one reason to "try" the regional permit system. because the complete linked provincial system is not a salvageable entity any longer (and they know that). they will see which regions will be strong enough to survive, and the remainder of the system will be left to the local communities, if they survive at all.

which is sad for our future snowmobilers, clubs, districts, and finally the ofsc. all we can do is pray for a leadership to see us through these tough times, and help out the best we can.

Ski