OFSC 2014-2015? What happens next season?

[Reved]

my club no longer has any tm125 or other new holland 

 sorry typo (auto correct). I meant to type "I hope not because our club/Most has 2 of these this year"

[hi-mileage]

Well I hope everything works out as a permit buyer every year since 1995 I'v been totally impressed with the trails that I can ride . I do not want a low cost permit to take away resources from the clubs . I personally think the permit price is to low and if you raise it to even $300 I'd be more than willing to pay . What that permit allows me to do over the coarse of the season is Priceless to me , and I thank everyone who's involved .

The best post of all,and I'm on the same page!!

Well said winterules.

[Greggie]

I hope not because our club/Most has 2 of these this year

If the rear wheel housing is cracked, replace it with a used one in stead of a new one. There are lots of used parts companies for tractors.

Thanks

Greg

[Greggie]

A hydrostat rebuild on an older poclain equipped br 180 or 160 is often 30,000 . New tracks idler wheel suspension and upgrades to improve reliability on the tucker almost 40 grand . We had a transmission rear end failure on a new holland run 20g . Repower high hour br180 and new tracks over 50g . Any of these happen under the ffc model and that club is done. 6 maybe 8 new groomers per year into our 300 groomer fleet funded by ofsc means a 40 year turnover that dont work

It's time that the OFSC does also groomer refurbishment grants again. Most groomers can easy keep going 20 years or 10,000 hours.

Thanks

Greg

[Greggie]

Please list clubs that pay that much for hydro and heating , that is insane and 8 to 10grand ON LANDOWNER SUPPERS wtf!!!

Where are you getting these numbers??

$6000 is peanuts for a minor repair, that said that is $6g off the trails

My old club cost $15g to get the groomer out of the drink a few years ago and a club just east of my new club has a $25g+ bill coming for their groomer

Don't need to publish the names. I am involved in some committees and the numbers rolled over the table and are true numbers. Know at least 3 clubs who apply. Have seen lots if financials of clubs and every club is spending their money on their own way. I am sure this happens in lots of districts in Ontario. Would like to see that you get a DVD at the agm with the financials of ALL clubs in Ontario and from the OFSC.

Thanks

Greg

[volunteer2]

Haven't seen the BOG report yet.  Reading between the lines above, does that mean that they are recommending that we stay with the $180 pre-Nov 1?  Hope it is not a 'shotgun offer' (take it or leave it) like last year!!!

I think that is what will be  recommended and the comments will be that it is too late for the MTO to approve anything different. Pre Dec 1 sales where up 9% according to BOG report. If it aint broke don't fix it?

[sledjunk]

I think that is what will be  recommended and the comments will be that it is too late for the MTO to approve anything different. Pre Dec 1 sales where up 9% according to BOG report. If it aint broke don't fix it?

Is that up 9% in numbers or dollars?  I suspect numbers since it seems to be about the 'spin' rather than the results.

[volunteer2]

No indication that the 9 % has to do with $     Prob the # of permits sold  is correct

[Viperules700]

No indication that the 9 % has to do with $     Prob the # of permits sold  is correct

Who counts 15,000 free permits towards the total.

[Viperules700]

my club no longer has any tm125 or other new holland

New holland is junk! Massy, John deere and Case are the leaders.

[AkronOrange]

I'm hoping the structure of the funding changes to favor those small communities that do not  have adequate resources to sell enough permits to keep their share of the major trunk trails open; like Foleyet and Manitouwadge and all of district 16.  I am hopeful that the OFSC and the Ministry of Tourism will finally recognize that closing trails that keep the system connected is not in the best interest of the future of snowmobiling in Ontario.  If trails need to be closed it should be portions of the labyrinth of trails that exist in some of those more populated areas.   Regarding the prices I am in agreement; given this past season, I would pay more, I would also pay more because I am from the States, but only if those trunk trails remain open. 

[Greggie]

I'm hoping the structure of the funding changes to favor those small communities that do not  have adequate resources to sell enough permits to keep their share of the major trunk trails open; like Foleyet and Manitouwadge and all of district 16.  I am hopeful that the OFSC and the Ministry of Tourism will finally recognize that closing trails that keep the system connected is not in the best interest of the future of snowmobiling in Ontario.  If trails need to be closed it should be portions of the labyrinth of trails that exist in some of those more populated areas.   Regarding the prices I am in agreement; given this past season, I would pay more, I would also pay more because I am from the States, but only if those trunk trails remain open.

We did already last season with Framework for Change. Every district is getting the same money for every km of trail and also for every grooming hour.

Thanks

Greg

[dweese]

If trails need to be closed it should be portions of the labyrinth of trails that exist in some of those more populated areas. Regarding the prices I am in agreement; given this past season, I would pay more, I would also pay more because I am from the States, but only if those trunk trails remain open.

I agree with you some what on that point. Some clubs do have a maze of trails that just don't seem to make a lot of sense. I know of a few trails that lead to dead ends, that I'm sure are just there so a few local club members can ride from their backyards.

But than look at what is actually known as the maze up around Bancroft. It's a group of trails that go all to the same place, but are a blast to ride. They could all be closed and just one kept open, but it would remove a lot of fun riding places from the area. I've spend hours just blasting the 5 and 6 mile loops..

How do you make the call on what trails stay, and what would go? It's a very hard and touchy subject.

[sledjunk]

I agree with you some what on that point. Some clubs do have a maze of trails that just don't seem to make a lot of sense. I know of a few trails that lead to dead ends, that I'm sure are just there so a few local club members can ride from their backyards.

But than look at what is actually known as the maze up around Bancroft. It's a group of trails that go all to the same place, but are a blast to ride. They could all be closed and just one kept open, but it would remove a lot of fun riding places from the area. I've spend hours just blasting the 5 and 6 mile loops..

How do you make the call on what trails stay, and what would go? It's a very hard and touchy subject.

Good point.  What needs to be taken into account is the demand for those trails.  The fact that they don't "seem to go anywhere" may be irrelevant to local permit buyers (and possibly volunteers) whose permit purchases are critical for the local club.

 

While I do some trips from town to town, the majority of my riding (and my personal preference) is to base at a  location and ride loops for a few days.

[Nith Valley Sledder]

A lot of the local loops are there to get the local riders/volunteers onto the main trail system. If you get rid of the loops then you also get rid of local riders/volunteers. These people not only maintain the local loops but the main trails as well. See how long a trail system in an area will last when you start cutting off the volunteers from the trail. In southern Ont the loops are very popular with evening riders and families out for a ride. They are not looking for high miles. Our trails take a beating with the volume of traffic down here and the lesser trails are usually much nicer to ride as they don't get beat as much or as quick as the main trunk trails.

[Wildman]

How do you make the call on what trails stay, and what would go? It's a very hard and touchy subject.

It's real easy, if the club sells enough permits to fund their system, none get cut, if they don't sell enough to support their system, the district trail committee should work with the club to decide a viable option.

[AkronOrange]

It's not easy, but doesn't it make sense to cut off access to huge areas of Ontario in favor of numerous 5 or 6 mile loops?  Look at the trail maps for D1 and D7.  Would people really stop buying permits if some of these trails were closed?  I know not everyone rides the northern trails, but to completely allow (almost encourage) them to fail just doesn't seem to be in the best interest of snowmobiling in Ontario.   5 years ago, conditions permitting, I could have ridden from Niagara to Longlac and back taking a different route each way.  This year I could only go as far west as Hornepayne and Hearst with far fewer route options.  I understand the need to have those trails for the local riders and also understand the need to keep them groomed given all of the traffic, those northern trails, because of fewer riders require much less grooming.  I know the last 2 years the A107A was open, it was just groomed once for each season.  Eliminating access to some of these communities just doesn't make sense for so many reasons. 

[Blake G]

I think permit revenue should be spent to service areas used by permit buyers. In other words, trails should be concentrated where the traffic is concentrated.

[xt]

The majority of my snowmobiling is done from home. I can put on 300 kms in a day if I want with being less than 50 to 75 km from home at any given time. This is without riding the same trails twice. If there were no local loops and I had to go 150 km one way and turn around a come back to do 300 kms I would probably seriously reconsider buying the two permits I do . Just my way to enjoy the sport. Nothing against the longer destination trips.

[Blake G]

I guess that's where I am coming from too, xt. I went a little over 6,000 kms this winter, and was always within two hours of home.

 

I don't pretend to know the fairest way to spend the permit money, and I assume the well-intentioned and more experienced decision makers try to make things as fair as possible, given the competing views of the sledding community. All views need to be expressed and considered, not just my view. LOL

[Nith Valley Sledder]

The new funding model should ensure the northern trails are groomed. I don't believe funding is the only reason these trails are closing. There still needs to be a volunteer base to maintain the trails and sign them to the provincial standard. The OFSC can't afford to pay people to do trail and signage maintenance. If these northern communities want to keep their trails they have to come to the table and do their part. Maybe the business associations need to hire people to sign and maintain the trails if they want to reap the tourism dollars if a suitable volunteer base is missing. At the end of the day the OFSC has a limited budget to work with and they have to get the most bang for the buck from it. Waiting for the province to come to the table won't help us as they don't have the money for a "rich man's sport" but they are willing to reap the rewards from our volunteer efforts.

[02Sled]

I guess that's where I am coming from too, xt. I went a little over 6,000 kms this winter, and was always within two hours of home.

 

I don't pretend to know the fairest way to spend the permit money, and I assume the well-intentioned and more experienced decision makers try to make things as fair as possible, given the competing views of the sledding community. All views need to be expressed and considered, not just my view. LOL

 

There isn't a silver bullet solution and there is the realization that you will please some of the people some of the time but you will NEVER please all of the people all of the time. We don't have the tools or the resource I don't believe to use the equivalent of traffic counters on the trails but it would be nice if we did. My perception is that the trails should be justified based on usage which indicates where the permit buyers actually ride.

 

If you have a trail that sees 1500 sleds in a day and you have another trail that sees 15 sleds in a week and you have to shut one down, which one do you choose. The other aspect is the number of those sleds that have permits. If of those 15 in a week only 3 of them have permits if becomes even more of a slam dunk.

 

No matter what is done there will always be someone who is unhappy with the outcome.

[Canuck]

I wonder how many 'northern' riders were brought back into the fold with the $180 permit?

[Bucking Pig]

The majority of my snowmobiling is done from home. I can put on 300 kms in a day if I want with being less than 50 to 75 km from home at any given time. This is without riding the same trails twice. If there were no local loops and I had to go 150 km one way and turn around a come back to do 300 kms I would probably seriously reconsider buying the two permits I do . Just my way to enjoy the sport. Nothing against the longer destination trips.

 

This is, I think, the way the majority of folks like to ride, if they can.

 

The new funding model should ensure the northern trails are groomed. I don't believe funding is the only reason these trails are closing. There still needs to be a volunteer base to maintain the trails and sign them to the provincial standard. The OFSC can't afford to pay people to do trail and signage maintenance. If these northern communities want to keep their trails they have to come to the table and do their part. Maybe the business associations need to hire people to sign and maintain the trails if they want to reap the tourism dollars if a suitable volunteer base is missing. At the end of the day the OFSC has a limited budget to work with and they have to get the most bang for the buck from it. Waiting for the province to come to the table won't help us as they don't have the money for a "rich man's sport" but they are willing to reap the rewards from our volunteer efforts.

 

This, combined with the first quote,  is part of the reason the Northern Folks (at least in my neck of the woods) stopped supporting the system.  We have these LONG  tourism trails to try to maintain, with no loops to keep the locals entertained (All of our resources were going to keeping the main TOP trails open)  People got bored with only being able to ride oout and back.  This and the economy tanking, along with a couple of poor winters, killed it.

 

There isn't a silver bullet solution and there is the realization that you will please some of the people some of the time but you will NEVER please all of the people all of the time. We don't have the tools or the resource I don't believe to use the equivalent of traffic counters on the trails but it would be nice if we did. My perception is that the trails should be justified based on usage which indicates where the permit buyers actually ride.

 

If you have a trail that sees 1500 sleds in a day and you have another trail that sees 15 sleds in a week and you have to shut one down, which one do you choose. The other aspect is the number of those sleds that have permits. If of those 15 in a week only 3 of them have permits if becomes even more of a slam dunk.

 

No matter what is done there will always be someone who is unhappy with the outcome.

 

Blah blah blah... Northern locals stealing my trails.. Don't you know any other tunes?

I agree with your argument about useage, to a point.  If we want to keep the long distance touring trails, which might only see 15 sleds a week, there needs to be a different funding model for THOSE trails.  You cannot expect a club of 50 riders (or less) to maintain 300 km of remote bush trails that are strictly for tourists (this was our situation in Nipigon).  I don't know how this new funding model could be set up, but I think that's the only way.  Otherwise, you're right... spend the money where the riders are and screw the north and the touring rider.

 

I wonder how many 'northern' riders were brought back into the fold with the $180 permit?

 

I wouldn't think it got much traction in D16

[02Sled]

This is, I think, the way the majority of folks like to ride, if they can.

This, combined with the first quote, is part of the reason the Northern Folks (at least in my neck of the woods) stopped supporting the system. We have these LONG tourism trails to try to maintain, with no loops to keep the locals entertained (All of our resources were going to keeping the main TOP trails open) People got bored with only being able to ride oout and back. This and the economy tanking, along with a couple of poor winters, killed it.

Blah blah blah... Northern locals stealing my trails.. Don't you know any other tunes?

I agree with your argument about useage, to a point. If we want to keep the long distance touring trails, which might only see 15 sleds a week, there needs to be a different funding model for THOSE trails. You cannot expect a club of 50 riders (or less) to maintain 300 km of remote bush trails that are strictly for tourists (this was our situation in Nipigon). I don't know how this new funding model could be set up, but I think that's the only way. Otherwise, you're right... spend the money where the riders are and screw the north and the touring rider.

I wouldn't think it got much traction in D16

Get over it. Where did I say anything about Northern. I didn't did I. It's just your paranoia. Read the start there isn't a win win situation. I have seen trails in the "southern" areas that actually get little traffic because there is a parallel trail that will get you to the same place but is usually in better condition so it sees more traffic. The rationalization is if it isn't being used we have to ask the question is it needed regardless of where it is. Do you upset 1500 riders by closing the heavily used trail or do you upset 15 riders by closing the trail that doesn't get used. If it was a critical trail one would hope and expect it sees more than 15 sleds a week.

It's like keeping your store open and losing money every month. Do you continue for the handful of people that come in to buy a loaf of bread every now and then. You have to make tough decisions from time to time.