OFSC 2014-2015? What happens next season?

[Greggie]

Natural corridor trails (over lakes etc.) only get $15/km. We also have to groom some trails with a Skandic and drag and do not get any money for that.

 

There is no way under FFC and without a substantial increase in permit cost that clubs can afford to groom for a lengthy season like this one.

So far I the calculation you, the district, get. $65 -/- 25% for every grooming hour....

Thanks,

Greg

[Greggie]

What will happen if we increase the permit price and the 2014-2015 season is a bad snow year? I think, it is smarter to keep the prices the same and freeze the classic on 1999.

Thanks,

Greg

[dweese]

freeze the classic on 1999.

I agree with you there.. Sleds are lasting a lot longer now, then before. This 15 year old classic permit needs a cap, because we are only a few years away from making 4 strokes classic.

[Bark Biter]

You voted for it.

Wow Classic did not realized you were sitting beside me when the vote took place.  And if you were trust me you would have seen that I did not vote to accept FFC.  Next time know your facts please.  

[Classic]

Wow Classic did not realized you were sitting beside me when the vote took place.  And if you were trust me you would have seen that I did not vote to accept FFC.  Next time know your facts please.  

You meaning the clubs. And by a large majority too.

[Bark Biter]

You meaning the clubs. And by a large majority too.

Thank you for clarifying this, as we as a District did not vote for this dictatorship as we knew from day one that it was not beneficial for the sport in the long run.

[winterules]

What will happen if we increase the permit price and the 2014-2015 season is a bad snow year? I think, it is smarter to keep the prices the same and freeze the classic on 1999.

Thanks,

Greg

 

Then I'd hope the money would go into a pot to be used when we do have a great year .  I have no problem buying a permit and not getting to ride as I realize that you can't count on fantastic snow and conditions ever year . 2 years ago my area never opened my sled never moved but I still bought a early pass the next year . 

[Classic]

Thank you for clarifying this, as we as a District did not vote for this dictatorship as we knew from day one that it was not beneficial for the sport in the long run.

It doesn't matter if you voted for it or not. The majority did and thats all that counts. We're all in this together, not just individual clubs or districts.

[gator]

What will happen if we increase the permit price and the 2014-2015 season is a bad snow year? I think, it is smarter to keep the prices the same and freeze the classic on 1999.

Thanks,

Greg

I agree with you on the Classic permit but if we don't increase the permit price and have another year like this year a lot of clubs will be bankrupt.

 

After a great year is a very good time to increase permit costs. After a poor winter it would not be good to increase permit cost. OFSC should hold onto the surplus funds after a poor winter and use it to keep permit costs the same for the following year. You have to take advantage of the good winters (there is no better selling tool for our product than lots of snow and good trails). Increase permit costs, build a surplus that can help maintain permits at an appropriate cost and hopefully have money available for extended seasons like this one.

[02Sled]

I'd like to see the permit price go up some it's a bargain for what we get . When my carbides ( snowtrackers ) cost more than my permit somethings wrong , I don't need the carbides without trails to ride on . 

 

Well said... the permit is a bargain but I believe here we are preaching to the converted.

[02Sled]

Hopefully the freeloader weekend will be eliminated. If after this winter folks can't be convinced to buy a permit, nothing short of buying their gas will.

 

If someone will buy my gas for me I will buy an extra permit. I would win big time.

[Greggie]

I agree with you on the Classic permit but if we don't increase the permit price and have another year like this year a lot of clubs will be bankrupt.

e.

Why will they go bankrupt? Under FFC every district get money for their trails and for grooming and that is enough to operate the club. If a club goes bankrupt, most of them don't spent their money wise. If you see the financials of the different clubs you understand that it isn't about the funding, it is bad spending money!

Their are clubs who spent yearly between the $8000 and $10000 on landowner suppers, we don't do that because we can't afford it. There are clubs who spent an average of $10000 on heating and hydro if the club groomer storage place. We don't have a groomer storage place and I can go on.

Thanks,

Greg

[02Sled]

Why will they go bankrupt? Under FFC every district get money for their trails and for grooming and that is enough to operate the club. If a club goes bankrupt, most of them don't spent their money wise. If you see the financials of the different clubs you understand that it isn't about the funding, it is bad spending money!

Thanks,

Greg

 

So what happens when you don't spend any money on anything other than groomer fuel, repairs and operators but because you had so much snow for so long that cost exceeds the amount of money you actually have.

[Wildbill]

A couple of major repairs will sink most clubs

[Greggie]

So what happens when you don't spend any money on anything other than groomer fuel, repairs and operators but because you had so much snow for so long that cost exceeds the amount of money you actually have.

The district get paid for every grooming hour of a club so far about $50. If the district doesn't give the money back yo the clubs who need it, it's the district fault as example if you don't sell any permit, have 250 km of trail and groom 1000 hours. The district get $72x 260 = $18,000. For grooming $50 x 1000 = $50,000 together $68,000. Don't tell me that there is a club who spend $68000 on 1000 grooming hours. If so, I like to see how and on what the depend the money.

Thanks,

Greg

[Greggie]

A couple of major repairs will sink most clubs

What us a major repair? $6000?

You must have the money for it.

Thanks

Greg

[02Sled]

The district get paid for every grooming hour of a club so far about $50. If the district doesn't give the money back yo the clubs who need it, it's the district fault as example if you don't sell any permit, have 250 km of trail and groom 1000 hours. The district get $72x 260 = $18,000. For grooming $50 x 1000 = $50,000 together $68,000. Don't tell me that there is a club who spend $68000 on 1000 grooming hours. If so, I like to see how and on what the depend the money.

Thanks,

Greg

 

The bottom line... the pot of gold at the district level only has so much in it. Just picking representative numbers. If the district has $500K for grooming for the season and 10 clubs that is $50K per club. A few major repairs and a heavy season and all the clubs exceed the $50K and spend $60K each. The pot of gold is now just an empty pot and there is a defecit of $100K for the district. Somebody has to make up the shortfall and there isn't an OFSC money printing machine that I know of.

[gator]

The district get paid for every grooming hour of a club so far about $50. If the district doesn't give the money back yo the clubs who need it, it's the district fault as example if you don't sell any permit, have 250 km of trail and groom 1000 hours. The district get $72x 260 = $18,000. For grooming $50 x 1000 = $50,000 together $68,000. Don't tell me that there is a club who spend $68000 on 1000 grooming hours. If so, I like to see how and on what the depend the money.

Thanks,

Greg

Congratulations. Your club receives enough funding to cover your costs. I am happy for you. But for you to think you know what costs other clubs have is ridiculous and to make statements that any club is receiving enough money to cover their costs means that you are out of touch with reality. Many clubs will be okay but there will be other clubs that will fall well short of covering all their costs. It is also easy for you to sit there and say that because your club doesn't do it that certain expenses are unnecessary. Things you don't do may be necessary in other districts. I hope that if you have any funds left over that you will be returning it to the OFSC as you are receiving too much.

 

If I am reading the FFC correctly there is no pay out for grooming hours, trail length or admin costs. These are used in the calculation to determine the total operating cost for a district. Take a look at the Supplemental Data Document for FFC. Under the projected data using actual 4 year figures (page 7 and 8) it shows the calculation of the Actual 4 Year Average Expenses using these numbers. The District Equalization Fund is the result of taking the Actual 4 Yr Expenses less the 30% of permit sales kept by the district/club. There is also a shortfall funding factor that was modified at the AGM so that no club would receive less than what was projected under Status Quo or no more than 10% over. So they are using a 4 year average not your actuals and even there you may not get the full amount under the 4 year average.

 

Bring your groomers up to Muskoka for a season and see what your maintenance costs are. You currently have no idea.

[Greggie]

The bottom line... the pot of gold at the district level only has so much in it. Just picking representative numbers. If the district has $500K for grooming for the season and 10 clubs that is $50K per club. A few major repairs and a heavy season and all the clubs exceed the $50K and spend $60K each. The pot of gold is now just an empty pot and there is a defecit of $100K for the district. Somebody has to make up the shortfall and there isn't an OFSC money printing machine that I know of.

I can't see clubs spending more then $10,000 a season on repairs and maintenance. Most groomers are reliable and font have many hours on it. How many groomers have more then 10,000 hours? Breakdowns happens and with volunteers is the cost of repair in most cases not high.

I follow you saying but I do t think that for most clubs the money is the biggest problem. One thing sucks this year and that is the last payment will be in July. I can see clubs who have to choose who to pay, the OFSC for the permits it the suppliers.

Thanks

Greg

[Greggie]

Congratulations. Your club receives enough funding to cover your costs. I am happy for you. But for you to think you know what costs other clubs have is ridiculous and to make statements that any club is receiving enough money to cover their costs means that you are out of touch with reality. Many clubs will be okay but there will be other clubs that will fall well short of covering all their costs. It is also easy for you to sit there and say that because your club doesn't do it that certain expenses are unnecessary. Things you don't do may be necessary in other districts. I hope that if you have any funds left over that you will be returning it to the OFSC as you are receiving too much.

If I am reading the FFC correctly there is no pay out for grooming hours, trail length or admin costs. These are used in the calculation to determine the total operating cost for a district. Take a look at the Supplemental Data Document for FFC. Under the projected data using actual 4 year figures (page 7 and 8) it shows the calculation of the Actual 4 Year Average Expenses using these numbers. The District Equalization Fund is the result of taking the Actual 4 Yr Expenses less the 30% of permit sales kept by the district/club. There is also a shortfall funding factor that was modified at the AGM so that no club would receive less than what was projected under Status Quo or no more than 10% over. So they are using a 4 year average not your actuals and even there you may not get the full amount under the 4 year average.

Bring your groomers up to Muskoka for a season and see what your maintenance costs are. You currently have no idea.

Gator,

I would like to see the financials of the club and yes I agree if you pay every one, money is flying. As example, our club don't pay any volunteer for expenses. I drive every month to the district meetings and to the agm and I pay for the fuel.

If you look at FFC, they take the trails x $72, actual grooming hours x $65 - 25% ( see the march 15 payment) plus the admin fee. From all permit sales the clubs/district get 30 as cash advance. The other amount goes to equalization payment. Again it is how the district distribute the money to the clubs.

Maintenance cost can be high because some operators are hard on equipment. On our groomers we have only 1 operator and he is responsible for repairs. The operators take care of the groomer.

Thanks,

Greg

[gator]

Gator,

I would like to see the financials of the club and yes I agree if you pay every one, money is flying. As example, our club don't pay any volunteer for expenses. I drive every month to the district meetings and to the agm and I pay for the fuel.

If you look at FFC, they take the trails x $72, actual grooming hours x $65 - 25% ( see the march 15 payment) plus the admin fee. From all permit sales the clubs/district get 30 as cash advance. The other amount goes to equalization payment. Again it is how the district distribute the money to the clubs.

Maintenance cost can be high because some operators are hard on equipment. On our groomers we have only 1 operator and he is responsible for repairs. The operators take care of the groomer.

Thanks,

Greg

That will be the District payment to your club. Other districts may be doing it differently.

[Greggie]

That will be the District payment to your club. Other districts may be doing it differently.

That is from the OFSC payment to the districts. To pay for all grooming hours until feb 28, there is a shortfall of $2,500,000.

Thanks

Greg

[02Sled]

I can't see clubs spending more then $10,000 a season on repairs and maintenance. Most groomers are reliable and font have many hours on it. How many groomers have more then 10,000 hours? Breakdowns happens and with volunteers is the cost of repair in most cases not high.

I follow you saying but I do t think that for most clubs the money is the biggest problem. One thing sucks this year and that is the last payment will be in July. I can see clubs who have to choose who to pay, the OFSC for the permits it the suppliers.

Thanks

Greg

 

We had three neighbouring clubs with groomers broke down all at the same time. We had one club groomer stuck in a bog and if I recall correctly someone suggested the cost to retrieve that was $5K alone. Not everyone has volunteers with the skill set, or the tools to do the repairs on what is considered the equivalent of heavy equipment. Depends on the nature of the break down and the cost of the parts as to what it will take to repair.

[Doogirl69]

You groom 1,000 hours with 1 operator

 

Not in our district. Our target grooming hours were 514 and we groomed almost 1000.
Thanks,
Greg

 

 

Gator,

I would like to see the financials of the club and yes I agree if you pay every one, money is flying. As example, our club don't pay any volunteer for expenses. I drive every month to the district meetings and to the agm and I pay for the fuel.

If you look at FFC, they take the trails x $72, actual grooming hours x $65 - 25% ( see the march 15 payment) plus the admin fee. From all permit sales the clubs/district get 30 as cash advance. The other amount goes to equalization payment. Again it is how the district distribute the money to the clubs.

Maintenance cost can be high because some operators are hard on equipment. On our groomers we have only 1 operator and he is responsible for repairs. The operators take care of the groomer.
Thanks,
Greg

 

You groomed 1,000 hours with 1 operator?

[gator]

That is from the OFSC payment to the districts. To pay for all grooming hours until feb 28, there is a shortfall of $2,500,000.

Thanks

Greg

The OFSC has made an Equalization Fund payment to your district based on average costs for the past 4 years. Your district has decided to make payments to its clubs based on current trail length and grooming hours but that is not how the OFSC calculated it. No problem with how your district wants to calculate it but don't try to tell other clubs that they are getting the same payments from the OFSC.

 

$10,000 repair costs can be a drop in the bucket for clubs located in rocky Muskoka and other such lucky areas. Warranties cover manufacturing defects not damage caused by rocks etc.