Greggie Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I know about rocks, about 1/3 of our trails is rocks. A expierence groomer know exactly where the rocks are and avoid them, less expierence groomer operators don't know them and yes they can break things on the rocks. We know from expierence. I was on vacation to Mexico and another beginning groomer operator lost the blade of the Trailbully. In the past there was never payouts on terrain and if we start thus, it will open another can of worms. The FFC was a change. Just because it wasn't done in the past doesn't mean it shouldn't be done now. It could not be worse than what FFC has already done.You are complaining about visitors, how many permit buyers has Snowcrest from outside you club area? In the past, you got nothing for a grooming hour, now in ffc the district is getting money for every grooming hour. I think ffc must work better then status quo. Again, you are still complaining that you don't have enough money, explain me if you can't survive, how can the clubs survive who sell less then 300 or 400 permits? Again, you guys are looking what works for you and you want more money, please send me the financial Excel sheet and I like to go over it and see how frugal Snowcrest us with their money. I am not complaining just stating a fact. We get lots of visitors because of our trails and proximity to the GTA. But it costs money and there is currently no compensation for it right now. We enjoy having the volume we get they help to make our club great but we can't pay the bills without proper funding. As Muskoka is a prime vacation/cottage area most of our permit buyers do not live here. Do you seriously believe there was no funding for grooming under Status Quo. That was one of the major complaints about FFC is that the grooming funding was drastically cut. If you look at the Status Quo document distributed with the FFC the reduced hourly fund for grooming was $120/hour. Maybe clubs that only sell 300 0r 400 permits need to do some drastic changes to survive under lower funding. If you look at District 1 there are 1 hell of a lot of trails. Many of them need to be rationalized and if the volume is not there they should be eliminated. I can say also, we don't do a landowner supper because we don't have the money. I am driving at least 5000 km for the club and get nothing. I am volunteering about 400 hours a year and use my equipment, such as truck, dump trailer and excavators and get paid nothing. To do fine, you need to be frugal with your permit dollars and be transparent how you guts are spending your permit dollars. I have no problem to tell guys how we are spending our money. As I said earlier, our club was almost bankrupt in 2004 and having not one working groomer, I came on the board in 2003 and became president in 2004, went over all the spending, cutting cost of $15,000-$20,000 a year. Now we have four groomers and they are all paid off. To solve the problem if we have a couple of bad years, we have a line of credit of $40,000. This year we are up in permit sakes from 600 to 800. We, I and the otter board members and volunteers are doing something right. Thanks, Greg So why do you think, is District 1 selling the most permits last season? Because we have local trails and loops. Our permit buyers like it. Did Snowcrest increase this season the permit sales with 33%? We did. Taking the trails away is taking permits away, there you go. We closing trails? Why would we, we aren't complaining about groomer funding. Under status quo there was equalization money but it wasn't grooming hourly based and yes they were telling that a hour grooming cost $120 but they never paid out $120. Maybe we need to close clubs who complain about money...lol Again you are complaining about visitors and I asked you how many permits are you selling outside your club borders, no answer. You know you do. Thanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 What would be the ideal permit price where all costs would be covered , we need to stop this permit nightmare . The result of the survey from last year was that snowmobilers were saying that they stopped buying a permit when the cost came more then $200. What is all cost, landowners suppers of $10,000? Cost of fuel for heated groomer storage? It's a volunteer organization and every club is spending their money different, no problem. Don't complain and cry because you are spending the money not frugal and are running out of money. We have here clubs who are selling about 300 permits and they don't complain and are doing financial well. Thanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterules Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 The result of the survey from last year was that snowmobilers were saying that they stopped buying a permit when the cost came more then $200. What is all cost, landowners suppers of $10,000? Cost of fuel for heated groomer storage? It's a volunteer organization and every club is spending their money different, no problem. Don't complain and cry because you are spending the money not frugal and are running out of money. We have here clubs who are selling about 300 permits and they don't complain and are doing financial well. Thanks, Greg That still don't answer my question what does the permit price need to be so were in the black ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 So why do you think, is District 1 selling the most permits last season? Because we have local trails and loops. Our permit buyers like it. Did Snowcrest increase this season the permit sales with 33%? We did. Taking the trails away is taking permits away, there you go. We closing trails? Why would we, we aren't complaining about groomer funding. Under status quo there was equalization money but it wasn't grooming hourly based and yes they were telling that a hour grooming cost $120 but they never paid out $120. Maybe we need to close clubs who complain about money...lol Again you are complaining about visitors and I asked you how many permits are you selling outside your club borders, no answer. You know you do. Thanks, Greg Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. One last comment before I am done with you and this topic. Maybe the OFSC/your district/your club should get rid of some one with tunnel vision that refuses to see anything beyond his own club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 That still don't answer my question what does the permit price need to be so were in the black ? We can survive with this years permit price. If you increase it to $300, there are still clubs complaining. If a club hasmoremoney, mist will send it also. The only solution to solve this is folding all the clubs and have one OFSC club. This can save money buy we will loose lots of volunteers and permit buyers. So keep it for next year as it is but freeze the classic on 1999. From the 620 full season permits we sold, there were 51 snowmobiles of the year 2000. Thanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. One last comment before I am done with you and this topic. Maybe the OFSC/your district/your club should get rid of some one with tunnel vision that refuses to see anything beyond his own club. I don't look what is good for West Carleton, I am looking what us good for Ontario and how can you prevent abuse of the system. Thanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterules Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Well I hope everything works out as a permit buyer every year since 1995 I'v been totally impressed with the trails that I can ride . I do not want a low cost permit to take away resources from the clubs . I personally think the permit price is to low and if you raise it to even $300 I'd be more than willing to pay . What that permit allows me to do over the coarse of the season is Priceless to me , and I thank everyone who's involved . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volunteer2 Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Any idea what's happening for next season permit wise? What's the price of a trail pass going to be? Last year I heard that there were going to be regional passes and for those that rode large areas, a provincial pass, but that never panned out. What's the wordI don't I don't think we can change the prices for 2014-2015. Maybe change up the Family Day stuff, 3 or 7 day permits. We probably can't even change up the Classic year until the following winter. Anything for seasonal prices the floor decides is for 2015-2016. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I don't think we can change the prices for 2014-2015. Maybe change up the Family Day stuff, 3 or 7 day permits. We probably can't even change up the Classic year until the following winter. Anything for seasonal prices the floor decides is for 2015-2016. it was made clear that we are setting next year next september Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volunteer2 Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 it was made clear that we are setting next year next september I hope we can set prices. Heard from someone else that we can't but I do hope you are right. That will make AGM even more lively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 What would be the ideal permit price where all costs would be covered , we need to stop this permit nightmare . That crystal ball is very cloudy at best. There are so many uncontrollable variables. How often does it snow? How much snow do we get? How cold is it before the snow comes? How many repairs get done? Do we get a thaw. How late in the season does it snow etc. etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I don't think we can change the prices for 2014-2015. Maybe change up the Family Day stuff, 3 or 7 day permits. We probably can't even change up the Classic year until the following winter. Anything for seasonal prices the floor decides is for 2015-2016. we did not dcide 15/16 as it was to be seen how ffc does and the valtag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volunteer2 Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 we did not dcide 15/16 as it was to be seen how ffc does and the valtag Yes That would be my understanding too. I was not sure how thing were left after AGM 2013 with permit prices for 2014-2015. Last year was quite the exeption with the MTO being well preped on our potential decision at AGM. I don't know if the MTO will/can get approval to us for 2014-2015 season from AGM being only weeks away from permit sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Thank you for clarifying this, as we as a District did not vote for this dictatorship as we knew from day one that it was not beneficial for the sport in the long run. It centralizes financial control within the district, so what dictatorship are you refering to? Do you feel the district you are in will be biased and leave some clubs out and let them fold? Is your club not on the district board? What exactly do you despise about the newe funding format? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 We haven't nade any decision on permit prices for the 2014-2015 season. The OFSC will come at the agm with a recommendation and we will vote at the agm. The classic permit, I made a motion last year to freeze it and the OFSC will study how many 2000 permits are sold and will come skis with a recommendation. Thanks Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 1. Classic needs to be frozen as it is now. 2. Family Day Free Weekend is finished for at least 2 years 3. Very difficult now to determine TP costs until OFSC, Districts and Clubs can assess this past year and how FFC impacted $$$ and grooming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volunteer2 Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 April BOG report says decisions for 2014-2015 with regards to permit costs, classic year, and family weekend all will be decided at AGM 2014. Recommendations have been made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 OFSC Board approved a Strategic Planning Committee recommendation to keep all 2015 Permit Fees the same as past season, which presumably needs to be confirmed at AGM Try our Trails Permit needs to be voted on a AGM. Also Recommending that Classics be one that is 1999 or older and in 2019 be changed to 20 years or older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volunteer2 Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 OFSC Board approved a Strategic Planning Committee recommendation to keep all 2015 Permit Fees the same as past season, which presumably needs to be confirmed at AGM Try our Trails Permit needs to be voted on a AGM. Also Recommending that Classics be one that is 1999 or older and in 2019 be changed to 20 years or older. Brian Thanks for posting info. That is what I read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Haven't seen the BOG report yet. Reading between the lines above, does that mean that they are recommending that we stay with the $180 pre-Nov 1? Hope it is not a 'shotgun offer' (take it or leave it) like last year!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Haven't seen the BOG report yet. Reading between the lines above, does that mean that they are recommending that we stay with the $180 pre-Nov 1? Hope it is not a 'shotgun offer' (take it or leave it) like last year!!! I want the $180 pre Nov 1. It was a huge incentive to me to buy online. If not for the $180 special I would have been forced to pay the $210 price which would mean my wife and I may have had one less lunch restaurant lunch while out riding. Nope... now that I think it through it wouldn't have made a difference. The permit is one of the best values of the sport. Got our money's worth and then some this season. Heck even on a low snow season we get great value out of the trail permit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Why will they go bankrupt? Under FFC every district get money for their trails and for grooming and that is enough to operate the club. If a club goes bankrupt, most of them don't spent their money wise. If you see the financials of the different clubs you understand that it isn't about the funding, it is bad spending money! Their are clubs who spent yearly between the $8000 and $10000 on landowner suppers, we don't do that because we can't afford it. There are clubs who spent an average of $10000 on heating and hydro if the club groomer storage place. We don't have a groomer storage place and I can go on. Thanks, Greg Please list clubs that pay that much for hydro and heating , that is insane and 8 to 10grand ON LANDOWNER SUPPERS wtf!!! Where are you getting these numbers?? What us a major repair? $6000? You must have the money for it. Thanks Greg $6000 is peanuts for a minor repair, that said that is $6g off the trails My old club cost $15g to get the groomer out of the drink a few years ago and a club just east of my new club has a $25g+ bill coming for their groomer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 A hydrostat rebuild on an older poclain equipped br 180 or 160 is often 30,000 . New tracks idler wheel suspension and upgrades to improve reliability on the tucker almost 40 grand . We had a transmission rear end failure on a new holland run 20g . Repower high hour br180 and new tracks over 50g . Any of these happen under the ffc model and that club is done. 6 maybe 8 new groomers per year into our 300 groomer fleet funded by ofsc means a 40 year turnover that dont work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reved Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 ...We had a transmission rear end failure on a new holland run 20g... Any of these happen under the ffc model and that club is done.... I hope not because our club/Most has 2 of these this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I hope not because your club/Most has 2 of these this year my club no longer has any tm125 or other new holland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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