aar0n Posted January 6, 2014 Author Share Posted January 6, 2014 There is always room for improvement and anything that does not evolve is destined for failure. That may be part of our problem... Too many people who hang onto the "this is the way we did it 20 years ago" and still want to do things the same way. People by nature are resistant to change but it has to happen. GREAT POINT! Completely agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake G Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Agreed. Things have been analyzed, re-analyzed to death. Policy and procedures have been put in place for policy and procedure and things have been committie'ed to death. Common sense went out the window in favour of fear mongering. You become the center of attention by crying wolf. I don't honestly know enough about Quebec and their system so I can't comment but I'm not sure how any government could possibly get things right. Just my two cents. Blizzard in Chesley This may be a little off topic from the OFSC role (not sure)..... but I remember learning that Quebec's legal system is not the same as the legal system in the rest of Canada. Their system is based on Civil Law, and ours is based on Common Law. I have little idea how this affects lawsuits, but perhaps liability issues are handled differently in Quebec? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanky Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 This may be a little off topic from the OFSC role (not sure)..... but I remember learning that Quebec's legal system is not the same as the rest of Canada. Their system is based on Civil Law, and ours is based on Common Law. I have little idea how this affects law suits, but perhaps liability issues are handled differently in Quebec? Good point. In Quebec there is a limit as to how much you can sue for, therefore the FCMQ does not have to carry as much third-party liability insurance. There are also other legal differences between the provinces. In Ontario we like to make things difficult with lots of rules that ensure nobody has to take any responsibility for what they do, therefore there is no limit on how much you can sue for. It is also easier to sue volunteers in Ontario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 This may be a little off topic from the OFSC role (not sure)..... but I remember learning that Quebec's legal system is not the same as the rest of Canada. Their system is based on Civil Law, and ours is based on Common Law. I have little idea how this affects lawsuits, but perhaps liability issues are handled differently in Quebec? My understanding of law in Canada are as you say we are based on the principles of the old British Common Law which was the premise that if it was common sense then it had a basis in law. Unfortunately thanks to the bleeding hearts that worry so much about the rights of the criminals we have thrown common sense out the door in so many cases at the expense of the victims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Blameless society run amok. Snow days out the ying yang. People whining about the weather that old timers dealt w/ on a daily basis. Everyone wants what they're entitled to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkids Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I was listening to our local radio the other day and heard a lwaers comercial "if you have been hurt in a slip or fall or snowmibile accident and it is your fault, you may still be entitled to" WTF, when does somebody take resposibilty for their own actions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkPlug Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 This may be a little off topic from the OFSC role (not sure)..... but I remember learning that Quebec's legal system is not the same as the legal system in the rest of Canada. Their system is based on Civil Law, and ours is based on Common Law. I have little idea how this affects lawsuits, but perhaps liability issues are handled differently in Quebec? I am NEW member to this forum but have visited as a guest for some time now. It might be interesting to look further in to what other areas are doing re liability & lawsuits. Then, approach your gov't representative. The OFSC Corporate office has someone that works with Provincial & Federal Gov'ts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I was listening to our local radio the other day and heard a lwaers comercial "if you have been hurt in a slip or fall or snowmibile accident and it is your fault, you may still be entitled to" WTF, when does somebody take resposibilty for their own actions when the legislation changes to force them to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 So why are we not asking the government to change the laws Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucebob Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 All excellent points. From all of that I gather we should shoot all the Lawyers first then move on from there. lol You forgot about the judges...they are letting it happen.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonCalling Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Sooooo many good points in this thread. I understand venting too and do often do it as well. (%##@## sometimes just feels goooooooood) I agree with shooting the Lawyers. all of them. I partially agree that Quebec is the model (at least worth examining to see what works, what doesn't and how it might look in Ontario) Sounds and looks to me like Quebec has a partnership with all stakeholders. I first started snowmobiling at age 5 and at 43 still love it as my number one winter past time, and from what I see is that the OFSC has just started to recognize that partnerships are the way to go to sustain our past time. I agree that the OFSC isn't perfect and sometimes "it / they " frustrate me as a volunteer as well, but a single organization is better able to deal with the legalities and beaurocracy that exist. Wishing they didn't exist and complaining about how it got this way won't make them go away (whether the ofsc is or isn't such an organization and capable of such a daunting task, it's what we have) Destroying it has no value unless there is a model to examine for rebuilding and improving it. If i destroyed everything of mine that didn't work perfectly I wouldn't have much left and would be even more broke. Change takes time, and recognizing that change is necessary is only step one. Destruction means more time needed. Time to rebuild from scratch if necessary (unnecessary to me). Time is money. Something that's hard to come by these days. *** I also take great personal issue with the comment about southern ontario. Given the current state of economic affairs in this province. An interconnected trail system is not sustainable without EACH OTHER. (the north and the south) Like it or not, the majority of the money required to fund the extensive trail system comes from Southern Ontario, as do many of the riders who travel to northern destinations to spend money. This is additional income not their sole means of income, I recognize that, but who doesn't want additional income? (Also wondering who considers districts 7,8.9 Southern Ontario) I live in District 5 and was willing to see more money go the north this year if it is necessary, and I believe it is. This opinion is always subject to change as I ride thousands of kms here in the south every winter. The vast majority of my riding is in D5 and D9, but I take pride in the entire Ontario system and want to see it continue and not end up like District 16 (not trying to diss them in any way at all but fact is they don't have the population base to go it alone, I'd like to see them re-enter the network) I also want to enjoy the different riding experiences offered by different geographical locations. My club, like every other club, does significant fundraising each year to function. We are trying harder than ever to be more frugal, and at the same time trying to improve on what we do and offer. Doing more with less seems to be the norm everywhere these days. Snowmobiling in its infancy was awesome. It still is! It has just changed. (for one thing OEMs have priced out many) I think our mindsets must change too. I think the future of snowmobiling in Ontario depends on forward thinking. I don't see destruction as forward thinking. It's easy to criticize, and it's a start to recognizing that something isn't right. But if it stops there, it will never be right. Going beyond criticism to suggestion and evaluation is needed. I might be the only one willing to give the OFSC time to adapt and time to change. I'M WILLING TO STATE THIS PUBLICLY I DO NOT want to see its destruction. I want to see what the result is in their course of change. When I feel they have had enough time. I will return to AGM and let my voice be heard. If I'm not in a club position to do so, I will make my voice heard at the club level about what I would like to see and not just criticize. But no matter what I will volunteer in whatever way I can so that my family can do what I did and loved as a kid and still love. (note until this year, it was only me sledding) Bottom line for me: the OFSC is now corporate , but I think it has to be this way, whether I want it or not. As a corporation they have a responsibility to shareholders (permit buyers) and we also have a responsibility to them. (buying a permit and giving time) I'm willing to give them SOME time. (I'm all done now, and being a true Canadian even though I'm from the south, I hope I have not offended anyone) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 You forgot about the judges...they are letting it happen.... You have to remember what a judge was before he was a judge. A LAWYER . They don't p--- in each others cornflakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Bottom line for me: the OFSC is now corporate , but I think it has to be this way, whether I want it or not. As a corporation they have a responsibility to shareholders (permit buyers) and we also have a responsibility to them. (buying a permit and giving time) Many valid points. Our family started riding in '69/'70 & didn't encounter the OFSC until around '82 or '83. If permit buyers are "shareholders" why don't we get an annual report? My father owned shares in a company & got an annual report. We shouldn't have to read vague reports of permit were sales were up or down X or Y % in the Go Snowmobiling insert. Nor should we hear, "Contact your club/district governor/Barrie for the info." Cripes we get mailings from "3rd parties" but nothing OFFICIAL from the OFSC. They ask us for our emails & have our addresses on record. I don't expect a glossy, heavy paper report similiar to that of CPR or Telus, but something informative & not fluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanky Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 *** I also take great personal issue with the comment about southern ontario. Given the current state of economic affairs in this province. An interconnected trail system is not sustainable without EACH OTHER. (the north and the south) Like it or not, the majority of the money required to fund the extensive trail system comes from Southern Ontario, as do many of the riders who travel to northern destinations to spend money. This is additional income not their sole means of income, I recognize that, but who doesn't want additional income? (Also wondering who considers districts 7,8.9 Southern Ontario) I live in District 5 and was willing to see more money go the north this year if it is necessary, and I believe it is. This opinion is always subject to change as I ride thousands of kms here in the south every winter. The vast majority of my riding is in D5 and D9, but I take pride in the entire Ontario system and want to see it continue and not end up like District 16 (not trying to diss them in any way at all but fact is they don't have the population base to go it alone, I'd like to see them re-enter the network) I also want to enjoy the different riding experiences offered by different geographical locations. You are misunderstanding what I said. I am speaking of southern Ontario's influence as a whole on the erosion of rural values that once were the common sense approach, excess unsustainable immigration, and the resultant political influence southern Ontario has in voting in useless government. This might be why things aren't like they were back in the day, and the social activities that communities valued (minor hockey, snowmobiling, hunting, etc) aren't as relevant anymore. Nowhere did I say anything about southern versus northern snowmobile clubs. I also think some of the discontent with the OFSC comes from someone we have NO control over, Mother Nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowTouringGuy Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I've been reading all the posts subsequent to my initial one and realize, among other things, I didn't articulate my thoughts as clearly as I could have. Perhaps I should have reviewed, more closely, what I wrote before pushing "post". I did not make myself clear on one very important point. I did say the 'current structure of the OFSC .............needs to be blown up and reinvented'. I stand by that comment. To be clear, I do not mean the OFSC needs to be eliminated. Whatever we want to call it, we need a central organization. I do think it needs to become more corporate. I do think it needs to be not only the governing body but also the operating body. It needs to stop hiding behind the 'we don't run snowmobiling, we simply do what all the clubs want us to do' palaver. It should run snowmobiling. It should show some leadership and, for sure, it should be a mover and shaker to influence our government. It may be doing that already but one would never know it. I've got to feel really sorry for Ned Flanders, the Insipid Snowmobiler, because he is never given any 'meat' to chew from the mother ship. He is left to writing about 'why we should buy a permit' and other non-news items. He must be ready to strangle someone (anyone) in Barrie. No, we do not need to eliminate a central governing body - my apologies for writing in haste - but we do need to blow up and reinvent "the Model". This current mode of operation is not a sustainable model. It has already proven that it cannot sustain the status quo. We have gone from what - 45.000 (ish) km of trails to 35,000 (ish) km of trail in the past few years. And lost a District. And at risk of losing another. If this model cannot sustain the status quo it is, most definitely, not a model that can accommodate growth. And now, because the model is unchanging, we are running scared and dropping permit prices in order to discover at year end that revenues have not increased. (my prediction) This is a voice for capitalism. Get as many entities as possible to pay for the trails. Riders for sure. Hotels, Restaurants, and everyone/anyone else interested in a winter economy. And every Ministry of the Ontario Government needs to be on board. Our Central Governing Body can play an enormously valuable role in this regard. Expand the 'user pay' concept that we have had for years to embrace all in the most liberal sense. So far, the user pay has been the rider. Hotels/restaurants - if you want to play, you have to pay. And not a 50 buck map ad - you're paying for us to groom a trail to your door. We'll groom it and sign it and take it to your front door. And we will use some of that money to pay landowners for access to their property. Those that don't pay may have a few 'locals' drop by but they will never see the crowds on Tour because they have will have no public presence nor a trail available. True Tourism at work. We need to forge relationships with other ORV organizations to spread labour hours and capital costs. The more we can share trails the better in that regard. And we will still respect the landowners wishes. Trails can split where landowners decide - bikes have much less an issue riding roads than sleds do. But, maybe paying a landowner for use of land will help smooth the way too. (?) And we will still need volunteers. Having a user pay system to date has not eliminated volunteers and expanding a user pay system to include all that are touched by snowmobiling will not eliminate volunteers in the future. They will continue to be the backbone of the sport. We will pay more people to do things but we will use the money from people who pay to play to accomplish those things. We will not drop permit prices because we will, again, have 45,000 km of groomed trails and we will proud enough to say that you get what you pay for ! Think of the possibilities !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Well Said ^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slomo Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I've been reading all the posts subsequent to my initial one and realize, among other things, I didn't articulate my thoughts as clearly as I could have. Perhaps I should have reviewed, more closely, what I wrote before pushing "post". I did not make myself clear on one very important point. I've got to feel really sorry for Ned Flanders, the Insipid Snowmobiler, because he is never given any 'meat' to chew from the mother ship. He is left to writing about 'why we should buy a permit' and other non-news items. He must be ready to strangle someone (anyone) in Barrie. I agree with most everything you've written. The snowmobile trails should become a provincial 'treasure' much the same way as the Trent / Severn and Rideau Canal systems. The one thing to which I take issue is the quote above. One of the main problems with accomplishing any type of change is outlined in this map: One third of Canada's population (let alone Ontario) iive in an area in which there are no snowmobiling trails and as a consequence, 99% of those people don't give a sh&t about snowmobiling trails. Any report on demographics in the area - both myself and 02sled have provided references to this in the past - denotes ethnic populations to which snowmobiling is not a 'natural' past time. What's Ned Nickerson, the Interprid Sledder doing about this? NOTHING Running insipid radio advertisements in Barrie. Riding around like a pasha with his entourage on sponsored sledding tours. Writing about tours in other provinces that he has done. Somehow managing to leave out the Parry Sound area as one of Canada's top ten sledding destinations in his so called book. His head is so far up the asses of those other parasites - the sledding magazine publishers - that he can't see past his own nose. Fire this jackass. Hire a professional marketing firm. Have them link up with ethnic groups, develop sledding weekends with machines, accomodation and equipment to introduce them to the sport. Right now, most non-sledding people don't know the difference between a trail pass and a registration sticker for their sled. To avoid any confusion - We are both referring of course to the so called marketing person for the OFSC - Craig Nicholson. Ned Flanders is a noble character on the TV program The Simpsons. My pseudonyme for Nicholson, Ned Nickerson, is the gender confused boyfriend of Nancy Drew - the teenage solver of crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slomo Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 If you would be so kind as to allow me to go off topic - I wish to apologize to those folks setting up the sledding podcasts - Yukon, Nutter, Groomer Guy, Blakesnowcrest, Krusty, and the girl....I'll look up her name later. At the time I read your post asking for crowd funding for your venture, I had just finished reading another gem from Ned Nickerson, and a rather loud flatuent 'declaration of what snowmobilers must do' with regards to keeping sledding alive from one of the sledding magazine jerkoffs. I was upset in that I thought your production was yet another layer of parasites feeding on the decaying whale. For any comments I may have made that offended you good people, I apologize. Let's ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I've been reading all the posts subsequent to my initial one and realize, among other things, I didn't articulate my thoughts as clearly as I could have. Perhaps I should have reviewed, more closely, what I wrote before pushing "post". I did not make myself clear on one very important point. I did say the 'current structure of the OFSC .............needs to be blown up and reinvented'. I stand by that comment. To be clear, I do not mean the OFSC needs to be eliminated. Whatever we want to call it, we need a central organization. I do think it needs to become more corporate. I do think it needs to be not only the governing body but also the operating body. It needs to stop hiding behind the 'we don't run snowmobiling, we simply do what all the clubs want us to do' palaver. It should run snowmobiling. It should show some leadership and, for sure, it should be a mover and shaker to influence our government. It may be doing that already but one would never know it. I've got to feel really sorry for Ned Flanders, the Insipid Snowmobiler, because he is never given any 'meat' to chew from the mother ship. He is left to writing about 'why we should buy a permit' and other non-news items. He must be ready to strangle someone (anyone) in Barrie. No, we do not need to eliminate a central governing body - my apologies for writing in haste - but we do need to blow up and reinvent "the Model". This current mode of operation is not a sustainable model. It has already proven that it cannot sustain the status quo. We have gone from what - 45.000 (ish) km of trails to 35,000 (ish) km of trail in the past few years. And lost a District. And at risk of losing another. If this model cannot sustain the status quo it is, most definitely, not a model that can accommodate growth. And now, because the model is unchanging, we are running scared and dropping permit prices in order to discover at year end that revenues have not increased. (my prediction) This is a voice for capitalism. Get as many entities as possible to pay for the trails. Riders for sure. Hotels, Restaurants, and everyone/anyone else interested in a winter economy. And every Ministry of the Ontario Government needs to be on board. Our Central Governing Body can play an enormously valuable role in this regard. Expand the 'user pay' concept that we have had for years to embrace all in the most liberal sense. So far, the user pay has been the rider. Hotels/restaurants - if you want to play, you have to pay. And not a 50 buck map ad - you're paying for us to groom a trail to your door. We'll groom it and sign it and take it to your front door. And we will use some of that money to pay landowners for access to their property. Those that don't pay may have a few 'locals' drop by but they will never see the crowds on Tour because they have will have no public presence nor a trail available. True Tourism at work. We need to forge relationships with other ORV organizations to spread labour hours and capital costs. The more we can share trails the better in that regard. And we will still respect the landowners wishes. Trails can split where landowners decide - bikes have much less an issue riding roads than sleds do. But, maybe paying a landowner for use of land will help smooth the way too. (?) And we will still need volunteers. Having a user pay system to date has not eliminated volunteers and expanding a user pay system to include all that are touched by snowmobiling will not eliminate volunteers in the future. They will continue to be the backbone of the sport. We will pay more people to do things but we will use the money from people who pay to play to accomplish those things. We will not drop permit prices because we will, again, have 45,000 km of groomed trails and we will proud enough to say that you get what you pay for ! Think of the possibilities !! STG - we are thinking alike. I have been saying for a long time that the current structure of every little thing having to be voted on at AGM often by a number of people who don't really understand all the factors of what they are voting on takes way too long. We see a need to react to a situation and it is often two years until it is implemented. We need to be more agile and adaptive to the rapidly evolving needs of the snowmobiling community. We have a dedicated group of volunteers however I know there are a number of those volunteers running clubs and voting on things at the AGM who are of the mindset of "this is the way we have always done it and this is the way we will continue to do it" Change for the sake of change is a waste. Change for improvement and betterment brings value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 STG - we are thinking alike. STG, I'll bring you help!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 STG, I'll bring you help!! Funny monkey..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Groomer Guy Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Thanks Slomo, We recorded a new one last night, I'm on that one, will post the link when it's ready. "The Girl" Is Marni "Doodette" lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Talk to your Club Executive, they have a copy of the OFSC Annual Report that is issued just before the OFSC AGM in September. It is an excellent fact filled report. I will check to see whether it is posted online, if not, it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Well the AGM did that very thing last September in approving Framework for Change after a year of consultation with Districts and Clubs. It was approved unanimously. Get involved with your Club. Our Club wasn't happy with the unfairness of the Classic Permit not having a 2 price system like Regular TP's. We brought a Motion to the AGM to change it and it was approved unanimously and it is in effect this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkPlug Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Well the AGM did that very thing last September in approving Framework for Change after a year of consultation with Districts and Clubs. It was approved unanimously. Get involved with your Club. Our Club wasn't happy with the unfairness of the Classic Permit not having a 2 price system like Regular TP's. We brought a Motion to the AGM to change it and it was approved unanimously and it is in effect this year. Not sure where you get "unanimously"? I was at AGM, and it was by majority vote on both counts. It certainly wasn't unanimous. There were discussions against both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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