aar0n Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Hi, There has been lots of discussion regarding ofsc checking groomers to prevent fires, why they get the 40$ for driver training, liability issues, etc.. I thought ofsc was just a tern for the ensemble of volunteer driven clubs. So why is there like a corporate office in barrie? And when we say "they" who are we referring too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 The OFSC does a lot of work what volunteers don't see. They are organising and distributing everything fir the clubs. Think about permits, driver training and so on. They take care of groomer insurance, liability insurance, court cases and a lot more. If they do everything right, I don't think so but who does everything right? Nobody. If you work, you take sometimes a bad decision, same for OFSC. Overall they do a great job! Thanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowTouringGuy Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Hi, There has been lots of discussion regarding ofsc checking groomers to prevent fires, why they get the 40$ for driver training, liability issues, etc.. I thought ofsc was just a tern for the ensemble of volunteer driven clubs. So why is there like a corporate office in barrie? And when we say "they" who are we referring too? hmmmm.......People like to tell you that the OFSC is not an entity but a 'grassroots organization of volunteers' which is, actually, a bunch of hoeey. Did I spell 'hooey' correctly? Volunteers still exist in every club and they do yeoman's work to keep us on the trails. Thank goodness for the volunteers. But........the OFSC is busy. Very busy. It creates paperwork and rules and regulations that drive volunteers to madness. Press hard, you're making 5 copies on that multi-use form. Canary coloured copy goes to the Payables department. The Biggest contributing factor to "Volunteer Burnout" these days is the rules, regulations, and insidious bureaucracy imposed by the Mother Ship. Volunteers get out and 'volunteer' because they love sledding, they love to see others love sledding, they love to make trails so others can enjoy sledding as much as they do. Volunteers who got this great business going and started the first Snowmobile Clubs loved sledding and loved the simplicity of creating a trail for others to enjoy. Volunteers do not want to fill out 5 part forms, or any of the other bureaucratic bs that goes along with being a Snowmobile Club these days. Club Office, District Office, reporting lines..........And, if the OFSC is making efforts to positively raise our public profile, or to lobby the governments, or defend individual clubs etc, it is not very evident so volunteers don't see it as an entity that's 'got their back'. The current structure of OFSC has got to change. It needs to be 'blown-up' and re-invented. To those that say, 'oh my, we can't live with the destruction of our "grassroots" organization', I will say, "you haven't had your "grassroots" organization for some time except you have been drinking the Kool-Aid. This, today, does not look anything like the 'grassroots' organizations of local snowmobile clubs I knew that created all the trails we now enjoy. "grassroots" is the Kool-Aid distributed by those that don't want you to think that things have changes. Well, they have. They have changed Big Time. I'll make an another unpopular comment (or two). I continue to look at Quebec as a model. The Province of Quebec has obviously decided that snowmobiling is an important industry. I'm not sure which entity concluded that but when it was concluded something very interesting happened. Something that has not happened in Ontario. "somebody" got everyone in a room and said, "we are going to promote snowmobiling as an industry. Let us all in this room decide how we can make this happen. Let none of us talk about why it 'can't' happen. Let us all talk about how we can make it happen." That included the Ontario versions of the Ministries of Tourism, Natural Resources, Environment, Transportation, Justice, etc etc etc.... A few examples....Joncas burned down. (very unfortunate). A year later, there was a new trail blazed through the bush in a Provincial Preserve, groomed and on the Provincial Map. How many government entities cooperated quickly to get that done? Liability on trails is limited by the Justice department thereby limiting insurance premiums. They have embraced ATV clubs to share in trail costs. I have seen traffic lights in towns that have a special 'snowmobile' light that lets me know it's ok to cross the intersection. It costs to do those things. Their cost structure is different.... Landowners get paid, Hotels/Restaurants Pay for trails, everybody gets paid for everything in their system. AND they still rely on volunteers. So, for all those that say we will destroy our "grassroots" by paying people to do things to make our sport wonderful, I say Poppycock. Yes, it is $300 for a permit. But with less going to pay for insurance, more goes to the sport. And, instead of getting all nervous and dropping permit prices so we can have the same number of permits sold with less revenue, somebody there has the confidence to say, "this is our price and you are getting good value". And, aar0n, that is just a start to what many of us have to say about what needs to change to keep our sport healthy and developing.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 X2- Welcome to the nanny state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Can't argue with you STG. Risk management is a load of crap, what happened to use at your own risk, be responsible for your actions. ?....I'll tell you, it left with the grass roots, the legal system is what is responsible for all this, and I don't know how to get around it. I would like to know the inner workings of the french system, it looks great from the outside, I have said that for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Well said STG ! STG for president! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuvMyViper Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Well said STG ! STG for president! I second that!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Can't argue with you STG. Risk management is a load of crap, what happened to use at your own risk, be responsible for your actions. ?....I'll tell you, it left with the grass roots, the legal system is what is responsible for all this, and I don't know how to get around it. I would like to know the inner workings of the french system, it looks great from the outside, I have said that for years. The Risk Management unfortunately is a reality of the society we live in today where almost everyone wants to blame someone else for their stupidity, file a claim and get paid for their stupidity. Picture a road and along side that road the local club has groomed a route for snowmobiles. That route is partially comprised of the groomed down and now flat bank created by the snow plow. It is maybe two feet above road level. A rider decides that due to traffic that sled trail is now too much washboard for their liking and the road looks better. Goes to ride down onto the road and rolls the sled. One day before the statute of limitations runs out sues the local club for a bunch of money. A rider going too fast comes to a bend in the trail and runs off into trees and rock. The rider sues the club since the rider thinks there should have been a slow and a turn arrow there and there wasn't so he blames the club for the damages to the sled and his injuries. This one is not OFSC trail related but is snowmobile related. Good friend of mine lives on a farm property near Flesherton. Typical very long farm driveway and a year with lots of snow. Snowmobiler runs down the driveway past the house and heads for one of the fields. Suddenly the sled stops dead as it runs into the wire farm fencing. The rider sues my friend who then fortunately was able to get their insurance to battle it out on their behalf but insurance premiums went up and were told to be sure to put lots of no tresspassing signs. I don't have collision on my sled. If I run into a tree it is my own stupidity and I will pay for it. When people start taking responsibility for their own stupidity... then the insurance requirements might lighten up. Maybe you too would take responsibility for your own mistakes but so many others won't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I'll make an another unpopular comment (or two). I continue to look at Quebec as a model. The Province of Quebec has obviously decided that snowmobiling is an important industry. I'm not sure which entity concluded that but when it was concluded something very interesting happened. Something that has not happened in Ontario. "somebody" got everyone in a room and said, "we are going to promote snowmobiling as an industry. Let us all in this room decide how we can make this happen. Let none of us talk about why it 'can't' happen. Let us all talk about how we can make it happen." That included the Ontario versions of the Ministries of Tourism, Natural Resources, Environment, Transportation, Justice, etc etc etc.... IMO in Ontario all ministries/gov't agencies are working independently to create roadblocks to anything the clubs try to do. The Ministry of Tourism makes folks believe the trail fairies create the mint trails you see in their brochures. Someone says you can't use CAUTION tape to mark a hazard on the trails. The MNR & MOE makes clubs jump thru hoops to get any trail work done. I was recently told by a club executive member that the little ice thickness "cards" are a no no & that all ice is to be considered unsafe. Not sure if this is his opinion or the OFSC's & he's drank their Kool-Aid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanky Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I can understand the frustration but I think perhaps some issues identified are being blamed on the OFSC, but in reality is a by-product of todays society. "Me" society, voter-apathy, continuously voting in useless government and allowing our elected representation to pander to the minority, immigration, southern Ontario influence, the list goes on. It is a litigous, refusal to take responsibility for peoples own action society, inside AND outside of the organized snowmobiling community. The government in Quebec understands tourism, the government in Ontario does not, at least not for motorized "non-green" tourism. I'm not sure we can blame the OFSC for the state of affairs in this province any more than we can blame volunteers for the Canadian Cancer Society for someone getting cancer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 The Risk Management unfortunately is a reality of the society we live in today where almost everyone wants to blame someone else for their stupidity, file a claim and get paid for their stupidity. Picture a road and along side that road the local club has groomed a route for snowmobiles. That route is partially comprised of the groomed down and now flat bank created by the snow plow. It is maybe two feet above road level. A rider decides that due to traffic that sled trail is now too much washboard for their liking and the road looks better. Goes to ride down onto the road and rolls the sled. One day before the statute of limitations runs out sues the local club for a bunch of money. A rider going too fast comes to a bend in the trail and runs off into trees and rock. The rider sues the club since the rider thinks there should have been a slow and a turn arrow there and there wasn't so he blames the club for the damages to the sled and his injuries. This one is not OFSC trail related but is snowmobile related. Good friend of mine lives on a farm property near Flesherton. Typical very long farm driveway and a year with lots of snow. Snowmobiler runs down the driveway past the house and heads for one of the fields. Suddenly the sled stops dead as it runs into the wire farm fencing. The rider sues my friend who then fortunately was able to get their insurance to battle it out on their behalf but insurance premiums went up and were told to be sure to put lots of no tresspassing signs. I don't have collision on my sled. If I run into a tree it is my own stupidity and I will pay for it. When people start taking responsibility for their own stupidity... then the insurance requirements might lighten up. Maybe you too would take responsibility for your own mistakes but so many others won't So why are we not asking the government to change the laws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I can understand the frustration but I think perhaps some issues identified are being blamed on the OFSC, but in reality is a by-product of todays society. "Me" society, voter-apathy, continuously voting in useless government and allowing our elected representation to pander to the minority, immigration, southern Ontario influence, the list goes on. It is a litigous, refusal to take responsibility for peoples own action society, inside AND outside of the organized snowmobiling community. The government in Quebec understands tourism, the government in Ontario does not, at least not for motorized "non-green" tourism. I'm not sure we can blame the OFSC for the state of affairs in this province any more than we can blame volunteers for the Canadian Cancer Society for someone getting cancer... I'm not sure anyone is blaming the federation , just saying things can't keep going the way they are, and be a volunteer organization Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanky Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I'm not sure anyone is blaming the federation , just saying things can't keep going the way they are, and be a volunteer organization It definately will be difficult to meet "customers" expectations nowadays for groomed trails and still be volunteer-based. Especially now that expectations are for a cheaper trail permit! Having said that, I agree streamlining some things could be done, always can. Someone mentioned we had to blow the current system up and start over for some reason, just sayin' that we will need a much larger bomb if we are going to cure everything and bring things to the way they were back in the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aar0n Posted January 6, 2014 Author Share Posted January 6, 2014 It definately will be difficult to meet "customers" expectations nowadays for groomed trails and still be volunteer-based. Especially now that expectations are for a cheaper trail permit! Having said that, I agree streamlining some things could be done, always can. Someone mentioned we had to blow the current system up and start over for some reason, just sayin' that we will need a much larger bomb if we are going to cure everything and bring things to the way they were back in the day. I am very happy with the trails in my area. Always groomed, opened early, couldn't ask for more. I was just wondering what the corporate office in barrie does. Why can't this just be a bunch of volunteer clubs with no damn corporate office Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanky Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I am very happy with the trails in my area. Always groomed, opened early, couldn't ask for more. I was just wondering what the corporate office in barrie does. Why can't this just be a bunch of volunteer clubs with no damn corporate office Back in the days of Alpines, bedsprings and non-interconnected trails it WAS just a bunch of volunteer clubs with no damn corporate office! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 aarOn, if there was no corporate office it would mean 200+ clubs dealing individually with Insurance Underwriters for liability insurance. It would mean 200+ clubs dealing individually with MTO for trail permits. And finally, how would the sharing of funding work? If you think clubs are possesive of permit dollars now, imagine if there was no corporate office to seek concensus (old matrix/FFC). The provincial network of trails that we value so highly would disappear overnight. Tha's why we can't be just a bunch of volunteer clubs with no damn corporate office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 So why are we not asking the government to change the laws I don't know whether we as a group are or are not. However some of these are the same laws that apply to the motor vehicle environment and we would be a very small voice in that arena. I believe it is far more wide spread than just the snowmobiling community. It is the stupidity of the society we live in and the justice system. There is so much concern over the rights of the criminal that they overlook the rights of the victim in many cases. Picture a woman coming into a major department store and bringing her child with her to create a distraction while she goes on a shop lifting spree. The kid runs around the store knocking things off of shelves and being a holy terror. Mom is stashing merchandise into bags and specially created pockets in her coat. Finally the child knocks over a shelf full of crystal. Loss Prevention now tell her she needs to come to their office to discuss compensation for the intentional damage her child has done. Her child managed to cut his hand when he smashed the crystal. The retailer had a St. Johns Ambulance person provide first aid for the cut. The mother declined any further treatment as they were prepared to call for medical services. At this point they discover all the merchandise the mother has stolen and call police. Many months later the mother sues the retailer for the injuries to her son. Damn if she didn't win thousands of $ from the court system and get rewarded for being a thief. That is the world we live in. Another example of some of the stupid things that go on... yes the example is US but we are pretty much in the same boat. It's hard to believe that anyone could win a lawsuit for being injured while trespassing on someone else's property. But that's exactly what happened to two Lancaster, Pa., teens who were severely burned atop a parked railroad car in 2002. While out skateboarding Jeffrey Kline and Brett Birdwell illegally entered property owned by Amtrak and Norfolk Southern Corp. and climbed on top of a boxcar in hopes of getting a view of the city. An uninsulated wire suspended above the train jolted Klein with 12,500 volts of electricity, causing severe burns over 75 percent of his body. Birdwell received burns over 12 percent of his body when he ran to assist his friend, whose clothes were on fire. In the October 2006 trial, a jury said that, although they were trespassing, the 17-year-old boys bore no responsibility for the accident. Instead the blame fell entirely on Amtrak and Norfolk Southern for failing to post signs warning of the danger from the electrified wires that power locomotives. For medical costs, pain and suffering, and "loss of life pleasures," the teens received a combined $24.2 million. Society needs to wake up speak up and change. I just heard on the radio on the weekend where there are a number of judges who are not following the laws as laid down by parliament. They seem to believe they are annointed rather than appointed. The law calls for specific minimum sentences if convicted of some crimes. There are a number of judges which choose not to follow the law and set their own sentences outside the parameters of the law. They should simply be fired from their jobs for slap on the wrist decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Back in the days of Alpines, bedsprings and non-interconnected trails it WAS just a bunch of volunteer clubs with no damn corporate office! Then the world started to change. You pay for a permit you then establish a sort of contract and a level of expectation. Probably the first person to get hurt and trigger a injury court claim started the ball rolling. Can you imagine the cost and the problems of each club individually trying to carry liability insurance, possibly with each one having a different insurance company with different expectations of risk mitigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanky Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Then the world started to change. You pay for a permit you then establish a sort of contract and a level of expectation. Probably the first person to get hurt and trigger a injury court claim started the ball rolling. Can you imagine the cost and the problems of each club individually trying to carry liability insurance, possibly with each one having a different insurance company with different expectations of risk mitigation. Agreed. If snowmobiling wasn't organized under one entity the way it is now, the cost of 3rd party liability insurance would have put ALL clubs out of business long ago...probably right after 9/11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuvMyViper Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 There use to be a private snowmobile club near my parents farm in the 80's on the outskirts if Kitchener (Green Valley Snowmobile Club I think). They had their trail on private land and spent most of their time chasing people off of their private trails (I didn't blame them for that). Without the OFSC we would have never had anything remotely close to what me have now.. Actually, my guess is there wouldn't be any groomed trails anywhere.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 In todays world how many of the landowners including townships, businesses etc. would be willing to provide LUP for anyone without all the insurance liability coverage that the OFSC brings and standardized risk mitigation. Without that we would have gone the way of the dinosaur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 But there is room for improvement and right now we are drowning in red tape and reports and doing this for worse than free Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Agreed. Things have been analyzed, re-analyzed to death. Policy and procedures have been put in place for policy and procedure and things have been committie'ed to death. Common sense went out the window in favour of fear mongering. You become the center of attention by crying wolf. I don't honestly know enough about Quebec and their system so I can't comment but I'm not sure how any government could possibly get things right. Just my two cents. Blizzard in Chesley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iangj Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 All excellent points. From all of that I gather we should shoot all the Lawyers first then move on from there. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 But there is room for improvement and right now we are drowning in red tape and reports and doing this for worse than free There is always room for improvement and anything that does not evolve is destined for failure. That may be part of our problem... Too many people who hang onto the "this is the way we did it 20 years ago" and still want to do things the same way. People by nature are resistant to change but it has to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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