Canuck Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 I attended the AGM but don't have much to add after BBakernbay and Sledjunk. The regional concept is a bold initiative and a 'work in progress'. (as for ATV damage, where it appears this thread has gone - I've said it before, and will say it again. Lots of the damage in our area is too deep for ATV's. It's as if small jeeps and trucks are now running the trails in the off season). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lep Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 in my opinion it is ludicrous to even seriously consider lower the permit price at all. There is a major lack of money now.....what r we gonna do, pass the hat at clubhouses lookin for money to replace groomers? The real truth of the whole excuse "I can't afford to buy the permit so I am quitting" is crap. The truth is, they can't afford the sport, the gas station doesn't care if u can afford gas, the dealer doesn't care if u can afford the sled, the only one they can bitch about is "the ofsc is gouging". The permit is the best deal in the whole sport. If they take more money off the snow by lowering the permit it will be the end, and it won't take long. How many of u have ever gone ditch bangin? Wildman u are so correct... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lep Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Fred Q...thanks for the info etc...have noticed this the last couple of seasons riding the area on the sled....good to see this coming together and very well organized etc....I will be needing 2 permits spring forsure....thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Fred Q...thanks for the info etc...have noticed this the last couple of seasons riding the area on the sled....good to see this coming together and very well organized etc....I will be needing 2 permits spring forsure....thanks. If your looking to ride up here Lep the club has several organized rides over the Spring/ Summer and into Fall. Come on up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Groomer Guy Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I agree. Valtags should apply to ATVs as well and that is something that our club believes in too. It improves the responsibility factor and drives funds back into the programs. It's unfortunate that more areas are not organized as far as ATV clubs go. In Haliburton the catchment area is basically, Haliburton, Kawarthas, Madawaska, North Hastings, and over towards Muskoka, Peterborough, and Almaguin. A decent sized area under the HATVA umbrella and affiliate clubs. We are working with the Bracebridge area to overcome some issues. It's sad that the jeepsters and 4wd operators are doing so much damage. While some are careful...many are not. We are not seeing too much from them out on the trails yet either. Hopefully that will improve. the 20$ val tag fee was started by the gov trying to do it for atvs... that what I heard then they said they might as well do it for other powersports including snowmobiles..... so both sport would have money coming in from that val tag fee. we know that AS snowmobilers, it the ATVs get some money from the val tag it will help us out with trail work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 the 20$ val tag fee was started by the gov trying to do it for atvs... that what I heard then they said they might as well do it for other powersports including snowmobiles..... so both sport would have money coming in from that val tag fee. we know that AS snowmobilers, it the ATVs get some money from the val tag it will help us out with trail work. I agree. That is why our local ATV club is in favor of the valtags for ATV's as well. It might be awhile off, knowing how the MTO works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Let's hope 100 percent of the additional revenue from val tags goes to the intended activity. I recall discussions on this forum about either the permit fee being included the yearly sticker (and therefore a base of 150,000 users) or the permit price increasing/decreasing. The proposal is a hybrid model. It is, however, quantifiable -- the extra revenue should appear on financial statements in due course. It'll be fuzzy math for a while since some folks will renew for 2 years at the present rate and the numbers will be difficult to track for the first few years. Anyhow, look forward to seeing a definitive statement that all funds from val tags (or the portion above the current $15) will go to Ontario snowmobiling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToSlow Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 i don't know if this has been put out there before, just and idea but what about offering a two yr permit for those who would buy it, i know when i go and buy mine permit i would like it if something like that was available Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 i don't know if this has been put out there before, just and idea but what about offering a two yr permit for those who would buy it, i know when i go and buy mine permit i would like it if something like that was available It certainly might be a good suggestion. I can see potential issues with it, though, but they shouldn't be insurmountable. The issues that I see are 1. The clubs purchase price for the permit changes from year to year, so the accounting may be a bit hairy. 2. Offering a two year permit makes changing the rate and or structure difficult for the MTO, who must approve all changes to the permit as it is their permit. 3. The clubs must provide audited figures to the OFSC (and they in turn to the MTO) for all permits received, sold, and returned. A two year would provide additional complexity to this process. 4. How would a two year permit be distinguishable on the trails? If the two year is a different colour, then that means and additional printing process for those permits. It would also require enforcement (police. S.T.O.P, and trail patrol) to be able to distinguish the difference at a glance to prevent longer stops at checkpoints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 On a car etc..you can buy a two year valtag, and that is administered through the MTO. As is our sled valtags. It would not be that hard to design a system that tracks who bought what permit when and how long it is good for. As far as the STOP and trail patrols go, you could just change the date range that is printed on the actual decal portion so that it reads to coincide with the two year option. So instead of a permit just reading 2013 it would read 2013-2014. At the club level a simple spreadsheet that currently (at least in our club) is used could be expanded to denote two year pass purchasers. I think it is a great idea. I too would really like to see the actual number from the valtags that get's returned to snowmobiling. That's a lot of coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve c Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 It certainly might be a good suggestion. I can see potential issues with it, though, but they shouldn't be insurmountable. The issues that I see are 1. The clubs purchase price for the permit changes from year to year, so the accounting may be a bit hairy. 2. Offering a two year permit makes changing the rate and or structure difficult for the MTO, who must approve all changes to the permit as it is their permit. 3. The clubs must provide audited figures to the OFSC (and they in turn to the MTO) for all permits received, sold, and returned. A two year would provide additional complexity to this process. 4. How would a two year permit be distinguishable on the trails? If the two year is a different colour, then that means and additional printing process for those permits. It would also require enforcement (police. S.T.O.P, and trail patrol) to be able to distinguish the difference at a glance to prevent longer stops at checkpoints. The easiest way to deal with 2 year permits would be for the clubs or ofsc to just issue the normal permits for the 2 years. As stated, it would be too complicated, and expensive to have multiple permits each season. I don't think it would be too complicated to have a program that keeps track of people that have purchased 2 year permits and can just mail out the second years permits in the second year. For anyone that purchases a 2 year permit, the club or ofsc, depending on how it is purchased could just hold the funds for the 2nd year as just as deposit or prepaid on their books. If the price does go up in the 2nd year, then they could just offset the difference in price as a prepaid discount. This would also serve as a bit of incentive for people to save a bit if the price does go up the next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I think the two year permit is a waste of time and resources. How many people buy the two year Val tags. Very few, since not many want to pay that far ahead. I think it would be more hassle then what it is worth, for the amount of two year permits that would be sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 The easiest way to deal with 2 year permits would be for the clubs or ofsc to just issue the normal permits for the 2 years. As stated, it would be too complicated, and expensive to have multiple permits each season. I don't think it would be too complicated to have a program that keeps track of people that have purchased 2 year permits and can just mail out the second years permits in the second year. For anyone that purchases a 2 year permit, the club or ofsc, depending on how it is purchased could just hold the funds for the 2nd year as just as deposit or prepaid on their books. If the price does go up in the 2nd year, then they could just offset the difference in price as a prepaid discount. This would also serve as a bit of incentive for people to save a bit if the price does go up the next year. The problem is that the MTO owns the permit and will not allow discounted rates other than what has been agreed upon (eg pre- and post Dec rates) We would need to get approval from MTO for any changes like this. IMO, I think the database required would be difficult for the individual clubs to maintain and reconcile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I'm not 100% positive, but I thought that the Val Tag funds would go to OFSC for distribution. I don't think those $$ were going to Region/District/Club For example, they could use those dollars to pay the insurance premium for whole Province which is around 25% of the annual costs. To me the big question apart from revenue, is how the 5 Regions would split up the Permit Revenue pie. There would have to be a percentage of each permit sold retained by the Club and the balance distributed amongst the Clubs that have shown they need it based upon the year's snow, grooming hours, etc. Lots of questions for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I'm not 100% positive, but I thought that the Val Tag funds would go to OFSC for distribution. I don't think those $$ were going to Region/District/Club For example, they could use those dollars to pay the insurance premium for whole Province which is around 25% of the annual costs. To me the big question apart from revenue, is how the 5 Regions would split up the Permit Revenue pie. There would have to be a percentage of each permit sold retained by the Club and the balance distributed amongst the Clubs that have shown they need it based upon the year's snow, grooming hours, etc. Lots of questions for sure. It must be fair however it is done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 I'm not 100% positive, but I thought that the Val Tag funds would go to OFSC for distribution. I don't think those $$ were going to Region/District/Club For example, they could use those dollars to pay the insurance premium for whole Province which is around 25% of the annual costs. Lots of questions for sure. I think you are correct. IIRC, the val tag would go to fund provincial programs like the insurance, etc. For sure, the presentation raised more questions than answers, but as WB says, the distribution must be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 The problem here with the val tag is it should not all go to the OFSC 150,000 sleds 80,000 permits there are tons of sleds that do not see OFSC trails and if the OFSC fragments further how do you justify the moneys going to the OFSC when there is no trails in some areas where a sledder might still sled even though there is no official OFSC trail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 it should be done like the states... ALL SLEDS ARE REGISTERED UNLESS OPERATED ON YOUR OWN PRIVATE LAND OR PRIVATE LANDS WITH PERMISSION FROM THE OWNER. they might not need trail permits but, should be registered and paid for their registrations. this helps track numbers of real sleds in operation, adds money to the funds to better the system and crown land for ALL. the crown land argument for trail permits is one thing but, the val tags are another. val tag monies should go to the mto/mnr AND the ofsc to maintain accesses for these public lands, and expand the reach of the trail system when needed and warranted. NO ONE SHOULD BE EXEMPT FROM VAL TAGS. atv's, utv, offroad motorcycles (not used in closed course riding/racing), sleds, ect... also the mto/mnr and the ofsc should put pressure on your provincial governments to get a percentage of the fuel tax given back to the sledders, boaters, atver's ect.. those monies can be spent to help the ENTIRE SYSTEMS TOO! help for boat ramps, road access for crown lands, trail projects ect.... think of all the gas the sledders boaters and atvers buy, all that tax goes to road only projects, even though these units never drive on the road. maybe there should be taxless pumps for these units to fill up???? in reality it is an unfair tax to these recreations, as we see no benefit from the tax money paid in gas in these particular vehicles. most states have this tax percentage given back for these recreational vehicle fuel purchases. Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 it should be done like the states... ALL SLEDS ARE REGISTERED UNLESS OPERATED ON YOUR OWN PRIVATE LAND OR PRIVATE LANDS WITH PERMISSION FROM THE OWNER. they might not need trail permits but, should be registered and paid for their registrations. this helps track numbers of real sleds in operation, adds money to the funds to better the system and crown land for ALL. the crown land argument for trail permits is one thing but, the val tags are another. val tag monies should go to the mto/mnr AND the ofsc to maintain accesses for these public lands, and expand the reach of the trail system when needed and warranted. NO ONE SHOULD BE EXEMPT FROM VAL TAGS. atv's, utv, offroad motorcycles (not used in closed course riding/racing), sleds, ect... also the mto/mnr and the ofsc should put pressure on your provincial governments to get a percentage of the fuel tax given back to the sledders, boaters, atver's ect.. those monies can be spent to help the ENTIRE SYSTEMS TOO! help for boat ramps, road access for crown lands, trail projects ect.... think of all the gas the sledders boaters and atvers buy, all that tax goes to road only projects, even though these units never drive on the road. maybe there should be taxless pumps for these units to fill up???? in reality it is an unfair tax to these recreations, as we see no benefit from the tax money paid in gas in these particular vehicles. most states have this tax percentage given back for these recreational vehicle fuel purchases. Ski just sleds in ontario require a yearly val tag. right or wrong that is what it is, everything else is to be registered and plated. The provincial and federal governments combined do give at least 3m a year. They don't say that the money comes from val tags or gas tax,it just shows up. The system is one of the largest geographicly anywhere, it costs more then most to maintain.......users need to pay more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 the 20$ val tag fee was started by the gov trying to do it for atvs... that what I heard then they said they might as well do it for other powersports including snowmobiles..... so both sport would have money coming in from that val tag fee. we know that AS snowmobilers, it the ATVs get some money from the val tag it will help us out with trail work. Do you really think the $15 or $20 a year we pay to the MTO for a val tag actually gets anywhere? Think of the goverment paperwork, the mail outs, the person sitting behind the desk at Service Onatrio to sell them to you. I've been told by someone I know who works for service Ontario that the $82 (it went up first of the month) you pay for your car, doesn't cover the cost of maintaining the system. Which from a goverment system doesn't suprise me. This is why they have closed a bunch of the MTO offices and moved them in with Service Ontario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Sorry double post, damn iPhone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 just sleds in ontario require a yearly val tag. right or wrong that is what it is, everything else is to be registered and plated. The provincial and federal governments combined do give at least 3m a year. They don't say that the money comes from val tags or gas tax,it just shows up. The system is one of the largest geographicly anywhere, it costs more then most to maintain.......users need to pay more. but, correct me if i am wrong.... doesnt the "north" not have a fee for val tags? if i remember right, there is a geographic line where the "north" starts, and those residents do not pay for val tags on sleds. is this still the case? Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 but, correct me if i am wrong.... doesnt the "north" not have a fee for val tags? if i remember right, there is a geographic line where the "north" starts, and those residents do not pay for val tags on sleds. is this still the case? Ski They changed that few years back. Everyone pays the same now no matter where you live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 I was talking to some ofsc reps from district 5 today at plowing match. They told me last year district 5 alone accounted for 25000 seasonal permits. Rumor has it only 80 percent of people in district 5 are going to re purchase. That could be a whooping 5000 permit drop, if this does occur. Alot of people I talk too, say they are waiting for the snow before they plunk down the permit money. Going to be a tough year for Ontario, if we don't get early snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 They changed that few years back. Everyone pays the same now no matter where you live. You are mistaken, we do not pay for val tags on sleds in the North, and we pay 1/2 price for car stickers and no e-tests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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