OFSC AGM - Who is going?

[Mossy]

Here in Manitoba, most pay for their permits monthly Dec-March just like when your insurance for your sled

$30-40 each month for Dec-March

It would help a lot in Ontario IMO

I believe other provinces do it also that way

Great idea!

[blakesnowcrest]

Another great AGM with new, fresh ideas on the table. I am very proud of my club and what the have done. Good job crew!

BTW- Canuck knows how to party! Lol

[al]

are you going to keep us in the dark tell us what was voted on for this year and next

[bbakernbay]

The big item was an approval to seriously investigate a Regionalized approach with lower Trail Permit fees if you stay within your Region, although full province Trail Permits would still be available. 5 Regions and do away with Classics. This proposal requires that the Province implement a new/increased fee for all snowmobile registrations that would flow to OFSC.

AGM directed OFSC to implement free riding on Family Day Weekend, hopefully this February but possibly in 2014.

Early Bird pricing for Classic Permits similar to regular Seasonal Trail Permits for 2013-14 ($140 then $190

Defeated Recommendation & for a One Day Permit

Approved an Upgrade Process from Classic to Seasonal so that if the old sled dies you can use what you paid for that Classic Permit to apply for a Full Seasonal Upgrade.

For 2013-14 Seasonal Permits would be $210 then $280 so as to encourage early purchase.

Some Trail Matrix changes

[sledjunk]

Good summary!

[Canadoo]

The big item was an approval to seriously investigate a Regionalized approach with lower Trail Permit fees if you stay within your Region, although full province Trail Permits would still be available. 5 Regions and do away with Classics. This proposal requires that the Province implement a new/increased fee for all snowmobile registrations that would flow to OFSC.

AGM directed OFSC to implement free riding on Family Day Weekend, hopefully this February but possibly in 2014.

Early Bird pricing for Classic Permits similar to regular Seasonal Trail Permits for 2013-14 ($140 then $190

Defeated Recommendation & for a One Day Permit

Approved an Upgrade Process from Classic to Seasonal so that if the old sled dies you can use what you paid for that Classic Permit to apply for a Full Seasonal Upgrade.

For 2013-14 Seasonal Permits would be $210 then $280 so as to encourage early purchase.

Some Trail Matrix changes

thanks for sharing. looks like some good stuff came out of hte meeting. The bolded sentence is very good news, we have to stay on top of the government if we want to maintain a world class trail system. This will be even mroe important in years to come IMO

[02Sled]

Thanks for the update... appreciated. The unfortunate part of all of this is that many will thing that this was a very fruitful and productive AGM. The structure we have today is such that it likely is. I believe we need to be able to respond faster and accomplish more sooner than waiting on a once a year 3 day meeting to determine the direction on a small number of business practices. We need to be more agile.

[sledjunk]

Thanks for the update... appreciated. The unfortunate part of all of this is that many will thing that this was a very fruitful and productive AGM. The structure we have today is such that it likely is. I believe we need to be able to respond faster and accomplish more sooner than waiting on a once a year 3 day meeting to determine the direction on a small number of business practices. We need to be more agile.

That is true. Unfortunately, the cost of province wide meetings could become expensive and we still have to get approval on anything related to permits from the MTO.

We could possibly meet electronically but I think that for items requiring ratification from the membership, it must be done with everyone having the opportunity to hear and consider all of the opinions. Each area of the province has a different perspective and different concerns.

[FreezerBurnt]

The big item was an approval to seriously investigate a Regionalized approach with lower Trail Permit fees if you stay within your Region, although full province Trail Permits would still be available. 5 Regions and do away with Classics. This proposal requires that the Province implement a new/increased fee for all snowmobile registrations that would flow to OFSC.

AGM directed OFSC to implement free riding on Family Day Weekend, hopefully this February but possibly in 2014.

Early Bird pricing for Classic Permits similar to regular Seasonal Trail Permits for 2013-14 ($140 then $190

Defeated Recommendation & for a One Day Permit

Approved an Upgrade Process from Classic to Seasonal so that if the old sled dies you can use what you paid for that Classic Permit to apply for a Full Seasonal Upgrade.

For 2013-14 Seasonal Permits would be $210 then $280 so as to encourage early purchase.

Some Trail Matrix changes

BB how woukd the regional permit affect you guys?

If you end up with a yr like last where you get tons of snow and riders from all over

What is the price structure looked into? $25? $50? $100 discount on regional permit?

Say you only ride NB and decide to get the regional permit and come mid feb, there is no snow and now have to travel to say Timmins, Do you have to get another permit or just pay the rest of the regular permit fee? I gather the permits will all vary in size for regional and color to define what region you bought in? What if you live on the border of 2 regions say Verner where you can easily head to Sudbury or North Bay? How big will the regions be? You can make the argument for say Kenora that is an area that does not see regulars for S.Ont like a NB or Sudbury or Muskoka would see if the snow is bad in places

Could this be a nightmare for TP as well as police to monitor

IMO regional discounts look good on paper but not good if you want a provincial system

[sledjunk]

FB

These were all issues that were discussed on the weekend. The idea is still in a relatively formative stage so there aren't a lot of answers yet. The price range that was discussed was just over half the provincial permit fee with pre and post Dec 2 prices.

I will say that the regions proposed are large as there are only five regions for the province. But, nevertheless, there will always be someone near the boundary with border crossing issues.

[FreezerBurnt]

FB

These were all issues that were discussed on the weekend. The idea is still in a relatively formative stage so there aren't a lot of answers yet. The price range that was discussed was just over half the provincial permit fee with pre and post Dec 2 prices.

I will say that the regions proposed are large as there are only five regions for the province. But, nevertheless, there will always be someone near the boundary with border crossing issues.

Thanx for the info SJ

So basically it would be a whole revamping of how and what the permit is?

If you want to ride provincially you have to pay?

I could see a $50 discount for regional rather then half price discount and of course have the buy before Dec drive

Ya boundaries would be hard once you get to central and S Ont if you go regional yet from where I am from this would be a blessing for permit riders before 2002 I never rode out of the Sudbury Trail Plan and averaged 3000kms a season before meeting my Ex wife..... in 95 I got 5500kms that season

It is nice to see the discusion

Not sure if this was discussed at all, as I mentioned earlier that here many pay their permit monthly rather than a lump sum sorta like you do with you car insurance

[Lep]

FB

These were all issues that were discussed on the weekend. The idea is still in a relatively formative stage so there aren't a lot of answers yet. The price range that was discussed was just over half the provincial permit fee with pre and post Dec 2 prices.

I will say that the regions proposed are large as there are only five regions for the province. But, nevertheless, there will always be someone near the boundary with border crossing issues.

SJ sounds like u had a great weekend etc....Thanks for getting involved. Sammy.

[02Sled]

That is true. Unfortunately, the cost of province wide meetings could become expensive and we still have to get approval on anything related to permits from the MTO.

We could possibly meet electronically but I think that for items requiring ratification from the membership, it must be done with everyone having the opportunity to hear and consider all of the opinions. Each area of the province has a different perspective and different concerns.

I may be expecting too much from some of the more northern reaches as far as connectivity is concerned however in todays world of conference calls and live broadcast meetings everyone could have their say and be heard electronically. I participate in online meetings and conference calls regularly with people from Malaysia, UK, US, India and more. Even if the clubs paid for the connectivity it would be far cheaper than sending someone to Blue Mountain for 3 days. But of course this would take a year or more of discussion then a vote at an AGM and then implement a year later.... way too slow to make change for the world we live in today.

[sledjunk]

SJ sounds like u had a great weekend etc....Thanks for getting involved. Sammy.

Thanks Sammy. It was busy and somewhat productive, but I don't know that I would use 'great'. I am not good with politics.

[sledjunk]

Not sure if this was discussed at all, as I mentioned earlier that here many pay their permit monthly rather than a lump sum sorta like you do with you car insurance

There was something in the package about the possibility of monthly payments but nothing was discussed, so don't really have any concrete information. I would have hoped that it would be made public before now so we'll just have to see. I think it would be great for some people and if it keeps a few more in the sport, it is well worth if, IMO.

[sledjunk]

I may be expecting too much from some of the more northern reaches as far as connectivity is concerned however in todays world of conference calls and live broadcast meetings everyone could have their say and be heard electronically. I participate in online meetings and conference calls regularly with people from Malaysia, UK, US, India and more. Even if the clubs paid for the connectivity it would be far cheaper than sending someone to Blue Mountain for 3 days. But of course this would take a year or more of discussion then a vote at an AGM and then implement a year later.... way too slow to make change for the world we live in today.

I have been on a few teleconferences but none to this extent. I would expect that there would have to be somewhere in the order of 3 - 400 connections and it might be difficult to manage and hear everything. As well, there are the private, one on one discussions that take place outside of the meetings, (at coffee and lunch breaks) that provide additional perspective. Also, voting might be difficult as well?

I don't know that it needs to be a two day meeting, though. Location is always an issue but as long as you have a large meeting room and enough accommodations nearby, we could probably get by a little cheaper. Might not be as much fun, though.

[FreezerBurnt]

btw 2 day nights in a row with below 0c temps here

[FreezerBurnt]

I may be expecting too much from some of the more northern reaches as far as connectivity is concerned however in todays world of conference calls and live broadcast meetings everyone could have their say and be heard electronically. I participate in online meetings and conference calls regularly with people from Malaysia, UK, US, India and more. Even if the clubs paid for the connectivity it would be far cheaper than sending someone to Blue Mountain for 3 days. But of course this would take a year or more of discussion then a vote at an AGM and then implement a year later.... way too slow to make change for the world we live in today.

On paper sounds like a great idea, but in person you interact much more and see more IMO

[bbakernbay]

One issue that wasn't mentioned but needs to be is that the OFSC & Clubs are spending huge $$$ on bridge replacements due to MNR regulations and the ATV'rs are getting the benefit of this huge funding by snowmobilers and not paying a cent towards the bridges.

There needs to be mandatory fees on each registered ATV which will go to Province for Trail improvements.

Too many ATV's are freeloading on snowmobilers $$ and work.

[Viperules700]

One issue that wasn't mentioned but needs to be is that the OFSC & Clubs are spending huge $$$ on bridge replacements due to MNR regulations and the ATV'rs are getting the benefit of this huge funding by snowmobilers and

not paying a cent towards the bridges.

There needs to be mandatory fees on each registered ATV which will go to Province for Trail improvements

Too many ATV's are freeloading on snowmobilers $$ and work.

I know this isn't the cause for hailburton area. The atv club there keeps trails maintained that they share with sledders, buy charging permit fees. They do some regular trail grading, bridge repairs on shared trails. I can see what you are seeing as a huge dilemma.

[Viperules700]

I think the regional permits will be a nightmare. How can a region that is farther north and get's a 12 week season versus one that normally has a 4 week season, yet the permits will be the same price. This could lead to more people not buying any permit ahead of time and seeing where it snow's,. I don't think this is the answer.

Sounds good on paper, but how is the system

going to function properly, since this will lead to less cash flow.

[Canadoo]

I know this isn't the cause for hailburton area. The atv club there keeps trails maintained that they share with sledders, buy charging permit fees. They do some regular trail grading, bridge repairs on shared trails. I can see what you are seeing as a huge dilemma.

oh its certainly teh case for Haliburton area when you consider the damage ATVs cause to the trails. Yes they have come and helped out on many occasions, but they do far more damage then they help to reverse. Not $1 of their $95 (I believe) permit goes to the trails outside of a few bridges they may have built for themselves...

there is no question ATVers need to do a lot more for shared trail maintenance. Not to mention the fact that most ATVers aren't members of any organization and the trails were built by the snowmobile clubs decades ago.

[sledjunk]

I think the regional permits will be a nightmare. How can a region that is farther north and get's a 12 week season versus one that normally has a 4 week season, yet the permits will be the same price. This could lead to more people not buying any permit ahead of time and seeing where it snow's,. I don't think this is the answer.

Sounds good on paper, but how is the system

going to function properly, since this will lead to less cash flow.

This is part of the analysis that is still to be completed. The regional permits will have split pricing (Pre- and Post- Dec 2) and it is expected will see the majority of the funds stay in the region. This is a multi-planked proposal and is not expected to be viable unless all planks are approved and viable. Other aspects include additional enforcement powers for trail patrol and also the val tag surcharge for all sled registrations going into the program.

We were told that the feasibility will probably not be completed until after June of next year.

We do need to make some changes, I just do not know if this is the solution.

[bbakernbay]

BB how woukd the regional permit affect you guys?

If you end up with a yr like last where you get tons of snow and riders from all over

What is the price structure looked into? $25? $50? $100 discount on regional permit?

Say you only ride NB and decide to get the regional permit and come mid feb, there is no snow and now have to travel to say Timmins, Do you have to get another permit or just pay the rest of the regular permit fee? I gather the permits will all vary in size for regional and color to define what region you bought in? What if you live on the border of 2 regions say Verner where you can easily head to Sudbury or North Bay? How big will the regions be? You can make the argument for say Kenora that is an area that does not see regulars for S.Ont like a NB or Sudbury or Muskoka would see if the snow is bad in places

Could this be a nightmare for TP as well as police to monitor

IMO regional discounts look good on paper but not good if you want a provincial system

There are a lot of questions asked during the 4 seminars we broke into to discuss this proposal.

There are certainly issues for riders who live in the boundary areas, unfortunately they may need to purchase a full province permit as would anyone who wishes the full flexibility of going where they want to based upon snow conditions or their touring plans. For them nothing would change.

If you want to ride only in your Region, then you pay less and take your chances. As well no more Classic Permits would be sold with this proposal.

Enforcement will undoubtedly be an issue and could generate a lot of negative feedback.

Remember this Regional concept is based upon getting a good chunk of money from mandatory Sled Registration fees, regardless of whether you use your sled on the trails or just bombing around a lake or farm field somewhere.

The other issue is how the Regios will operate in disbursing some of the $$$ to Clubs that need it.

One suggestion I heard but wasn't discussed is to move the "Snow Line" farther north so that souhtern residents would have to buy their Trail Permits from Clubs north of __________?

There seemed to be some agreement that Clubs that are sitting on lots of cash due to high permit sales and low costs requires a change in funding formula. Easier said than done though.

[fish]

I have always said to people that buying a permit the way it is now is a good deal as say compared to buying a season pass for a specific ski hill or golf course, as it allows you to sled any where in the province. I have only been in the game for a few years but there has always been snow somewhere and it is up to me to get to it. Last year was the first year our oldest daughter had her licence and she had saved her money for a sled. We drove from Wellesley to Lindsay over Christmas holidays just so she could get out on it for the day. We certainly wouldn't do that if we had to buy a second permit for each of our 3 sleds.

I guess it would depend on how much the provincial permit would cost as to whether we stay in the game or not. We originally got into the game thinking we could just sled from home, but the last few winters that hasn't been the case and when you have cash tied up in 3 sleds we travel as much as possible to go where the snow is.