OFSC AGM - Who is going?

[Panther340]

Quite frankly Skidooboy………….I don’t think my opinion about how OFSC should be run would be worth much because I fully recognize that I don’t know the inner working of the OFSC and their need to handle both the North and South’s many trails and issues. I fully recognize that that is a much more complicated process. I will say that if the OFSC is having a problem policing the trails for abusers (of which I am not one ), then that is a separate issue between the OFSC and OPP But I do get to have an opinion about the validation tags of ATV’s and Snowmachines , because that is the operation of the Government and the general population of Northern Ontario specifically. To off load the problems that OFSC and or even ATV clubs are having onto the general public, by just having everyone one pay, does not appreciate that thousands and thousand of people do not use the OFSC trails in winter or ATV Club trails in summer. Up here abuse is not near as much as you think, there is thousands of sq miles and lakes and logging roads etc not even close to “payed to make trails.”

The Ontario Government many years ago realized that Car validation tags in the north should be cheaper and not require Pollution checks every few years because the North does not have a smog problem and we do not have the option of transit systems like bus and go trains etc that Southern Ontario has, so we need our cars. The same thinking then went forward with Snow Machines and ATV’s that val tags should be simpler cheaper than the South process because there are people in Northern Ontario eg natives and trappers and yes others like me that live in remote locations that need those types of vehicles. Fortunately that government ruling also covers city people in Sudbury the Sault and Thunder Bay, because the Northern Ontario dividing line is south of that. So with all due respect to you Skidooboy please understand that thousands of us residents of Northern Ontario do not want that validation tag can of worms opened by the Government because it might set precedent for other costs being downloaded to us for all our vehicles. There are roughly 730,000 Northern Ontario people living in the 310,000 sq miles of Northern Ontario (which is 87 % of the area of Ontario) that works out to a density of 2 people per sq mile. So that is very few people to tax to cover the infrastructure of roads and trails required for Northern Ontario. All of Michigan is only 96,000 sq mile and its population density is 174 people per sq mile, so I imagine you are used to better infrastructure capability because of that.

Now if you wanted my humble opinion about OFSC trail permits and or ATV permits………I think they should be more, but have some sort of lack of “snow fall” insurance caveat built in. Now because the sport gets to use so much area and it costs to make those trails it should probably cost more. Hey a downhill ski pass that is good for the same three months of winter and a average person might get on the groomed hill a dozen days on average, and only covers ONE HILL, still costs far more than a OFSC trail pass, that also covers use across the province., but that is just my humble opinion.

Lets remember that whether it is ATV trails or OFSC trails, this is a sport not a system to support trade etc like our highways and rail. It is a sport that does help bring tourists and should get government help but will always be limited by that. Unfortunately our Northern towns needs far more than tourists to keep them from being “ghost towns” we need our logging to pickup we need our mills reopened , we need our Mining not to be so ridiculously handcuffed by red tape, we need electricity rates to be based on Northern Ontario Hydro dam costs not southern ontario rates. (In all seriousness Northern Ontario should be a separate province) Now I hope for a good winter here on the Northshore and that trails between Echo Bay, Leeburn and right thru to Elliot Lake get opened more consistently and I will buy another trail pass again. But until then I will hold off.

[02Sled]

Everyone talks about things like MTO licence stickers subsidising those who ride in the south and not benefitting those in the north. Well guess what. Whenever you get anything provincially based there is a whole lot of subsidy going on geographically.

Just look at the cost of maintaining roads in northern Ontario. Don't think for one second that the property taxes and provincial taxes collected in the north pay enough to cover the roads. Just look at the roads that go for miles with nothing but bush and at the end there is a couple of houses. The taxes collected in the south pay for some of that road maintenance and creation. It all goes into one big pot (the province) and gets split up as required with subsidies going both ways. I would wager though that based on population densities the south subsidises the north far more than the other way around.

Bottom line. We need a sustainable system. It was a number of years ago that Sask. trail system was on the verge of collapse until they changed their system. Every sled registered pays into the trail maintenance.

[Canuck]

Two comments:

1. The OFSC does support the north. There were substantial transfer payments in the past and they'll likely continue in the future. Does the 'club' model work in those districts, at present? No, in my opinion -- but that will change.

2. Ontario's north, like Quebec's, is a resource filled treasure. I read an article about Charest's loss, and many point to the conflict over his "PLAN NORD". Google that term -- you'll see it's impact. The north will prosper. Our task is to preserve the routes we have for the time being.

[Panther340]

Well O2 Sled .l.................lets pretend that the system of validation tickets for every snowmachine in the province and ATV was done yearly and a few dollars from each tag went to OFSC and ATV clubs. immediately those owners would think in their minds that .........hey my val tag dollars and taxes are going to the trail system, that means I get to use it and don't need to pay for OFSC member trail permit.

So if you think you have freeloaders now, wait until they know val tags money is going to trails. Abuse would be rampant and a hate on for anyone from OFSC would happen in many towns. The last thing OFSC and ATV clubs need is bad optics and bad press like that.

So that process would just make it worse, because OFSC will always need to exist, it is not like the MTO or MNR will ever take over making and maintaining the trails, so volunteers and trail permits etc would still be needed. All you would cause by a solution like that is for more freeloaders to abuse the trails, saying their taxes and fees paid for it..........and more red tape from MTO controlling the OFSC etc.

[02Sled]

Well O2 Sled .l.................lets pretend that the system of validation tickets for every snowmachine in the province and ATV was done yearly and a few dollars from each tag went to OFSC and ATV clubs. immediately those owners would think in their minds that .........hey my val tag dollars and taxes are going to the trail system, that means I get to use it and don't need to pay for OFSC member trail permit.

So if you think you have freeloaders now, wait until they know val tags money is going to trails. Abuse would be rampant and a hate on for anyone from OFSC would happen in many towns. The last thing OFSC and ATV clubs need is bad optics and bad press like that.

So that process would just make it worse, because OFSC will always need to exist, it is not like the MTO or MNR will ever take over making and maintaining the trails, so volunteers and trail permits etc would still be needed. All you would cause by a solution like that is for more freeloaders to abuse the trails, saying their taxes and fees paid for it..........and more red tape from MTO controlling the OFSC etc.

So where is the outrage now. Surely they know the province gave if memory serves me correct $3M to the OFSC for infrastructure last year. That came from tax money.

[Sledguy74]

Just reading my the new Go Snowmobiling Ontario magazine and it says Quebec permits are $340 (reg), $280 (discount) and $440 on trail (ouch)

We pay $210 this season with $10 going to new groomer equipment...............thats fine with me!

The north needs more money than their permit sales can generate.........thats fine with me too!

We have all been up there, longer winters & more snow = greater operating costs.

I know the OFSC and MTO could do things better, but what matters is not losing the network we enjoy today.

Reading a few pages of these new magazines has me wanting winter now lol

[bbakernbay]

Just reading my the new Go Snowmobiling Ontario magazine and it says Quebec permits are $340 (reg), $280 (discount) and $440 on trail (ouch)

We pay $210 this season with $10 going to new groomer equipment...............thats fine with me!

The north needs more money than their permit sales can generate.........thats fine with me too!

We have all been up there, longer winters & more snow = greater operating costs.

I know the OFSC and MTO could do things better, but what matters is not losing the network we enjoy today.

Reading a few pages of these new magazines has me wanting winter now lol

Quebec includes $50 for mandatory insurance (refundable to out of province riders upon application) which is a great deal for liability insurance. That would save me $75 per year but not in Ontario.

[Sledguy74]

Quebec includes $50 for mandatory insurance (refundable to out of province riders upon application) which is a great deal for liability insurance. That would save me $75 per year but not in Ontario.

yes that is a good deal

[02Sled]

Just reading my the new Go Snowmobiling Ontario magazine and it says Quebec permits are $340 (reg), $280 (discount) and $440 on trail (ouch)

We pay $210 this season with $10 going to new groomer equipment...............thats fine with me!

The north needs more money than their permit sales can generate.........thats fine with me too!

We have all been up there, longer winters & more snow = greater operating costs.

I know the OFSC and MTO could do things better, but what matters is not losing the network we enjoy today.

Reading a few pages of these new magazines has me wanting winter now lol

The Quebec permit apparently includes $50 for liability insurance. Not sure what that gets you but remove that portion and the permit is still $290. I like our $210 far better.

Perhaps the $50 insurance number is misleading in the concept. I am going to guess that the same company that carries the liability insurance for the Quebec equivalent of the OFSC would also be the company that carries the liability insurance for each sled. If there is a claim from a sledder it is all likely handled by one and only one insurance company.

OUR PERMIT IS A BARGAIN!

[Sledguy74]

The Quebec permit apparently includes $50 for liability insurance. Not sure what that gets you but remove that portion and the permit is still $290. I like our $210 far better.

Perhaps the $50 insurance number is misleading in the concept. I am going to guess that the same company that carries the liability insurance for the Quebec equivalent of the OFSC would also be the company that carries the liability insurance for each sled. If there is a claim from a sledder it is all likely handled by one and only one insurance company.

OUR PERMIT IS A BARGAIN!

sure is

[sledjunk]

The insurance in Quebec only covers sleds registered in Quebec and there are very different awards for insurance claims in that province.

[Fred Quimby]

Everyone talks about things like MTO licence stickers subsidising those who ride in the south and not benefitting those in the north. Well guess what. Whenever you get anything provincially based there is a whole lot of subsidy going on geographically.

Just look at the cost of maintaining roads in northern Ontario. Don't think for one second that the property taxes and provincial taxes collected in the north pay enough to cover the roads. Just look at the roads that go for miles with nothing but bush and at the end there is a couple of houses. The taxes collected in the south pay for some of that road maintenance and creation. It all goes into one big pot (the province) and gets split up as required with subsidies going both ways. I would wager though that based on population densities the south subsidises the north far more than the other way around.

Bottom line. We need a sustainable system. It was a number of years ago that Sask. trail system was on the verge of collapse until they changed their system. Every sled registered pays into the trail maintenance.

Especially in un-organized townships where people pay almost zero property taxes..if any. I have a friend up in Borden Lk..outside Chapleau. He pays about $250.00/yr in taxes and that is just for school and fire protection. So there are some heavy subsidies for sure. O2 is right on the money.

[Panther340]

So Fred now ask that same guy outside of Chapleau how much more he pays for house insurance because he is more than 6 km away from a fire hall, and volunteer fire dept (basement savers) do not have the specified tanker size of equipment your house insurance provider expects for a certain number of minutes of water suppression . Eg I pay roughly 250 more a year for house insurance just on that aspect alone, because we don't have fire hydrants. Oh and the unorganized townships don't have garbage pickup and snow plowing is sparse , so we must own a 4x 4 , no sidewalks , no water lines and sewage pipes servicing us and no paved roads....we like it that way but that is why he might pay a quarter of what city folks pay . (I still pay $1300 /yr and city folks pay $2600) So when you put in in context it makes a lot more sense .....no subsidy here. But please thank us for the cheap electricity we send ya to counter the expensive elec made down there. But lets not get into a subsidy battle, it is the resources of the north that made Bay St in 1950's and still makes many a millionaire for the Haliburton area. MY income taxes pay for your highway 400 improvements and yours pay for my measley highway 638 improvements that happen once a decade. lSo lets get back to Snowmachines please, we had frost here this morn and animal preps for winter seem to point to an early snowfall.

[02Sled]

So Fred now ask that same guy outside of Chapleau how much more he pays for house insurance because he is more than 6 km away from a fire hall, and volunteer fire dept (basement savers) do not have the specified tanker size of equipment your house insurance provider expects for a certain number of minutes of water suppression . Eg I pay roughly 250 more a year for house insurance just on that aspect alone, because we don't have fire hydrants. Oh and the unorganized townships don't have garbage pickup and snow plowing is sparse , so we must own a 4x 4 , no sidewalks , no water lines and sewage pipes servicing us and no paved roads....we like it that way but that is why he might pay a quarter of what city folks pay . (I still pay $1300 /yr and city folks pay $2600) So when you put in in context it makes a lot more sense .....no subsidy here. But please thank us for the cheap electricity we send ya to counter the expensive elec made down there. But lets not get into a subsidy battle, it is the resources of the north that made Bay St in 1950's and still makes many a millionaire for the Haliburton area. MY income taxes pay for your highway 400 improvements and yours pay for my measley highway 638 improvements that happen once a decade. lSo lets get back to Snowmachines please, we had frost here this morn and animal preps for winter seem to point to an early snowfall.

We could point fingers back and forth for an eternity on subsidies. Great to here that the signs are pointing to an early snowfall. Let's just hope that it doesn't come too early. Let's get some frost in the ground first.

[Fred Quimby]

So Fred now ask that same guy outside of Chapleau how much more he pays for house insurance because he is more than 6 km away from a fire hall, and volunteer fire dept (basement savers) do not have the specified tanker size of equipment your house insurance provider expects for a certain number of minutes of water suppression . Eg I pay roughly 250 more a year for house insurance just on that aspect alone, because we don't have fire hydrants. Oh and the unorganized townships don't have garbage pickup and snow plowing is sparse , so we must own a 4x 4 , no sidewalks , no water lines and sewage pipes servicing us and no paved roads....we like it that way but that is why he might pay a quarter of what city folks pay . (I still pay $1300 /yr and city folks pay $2600) So when you put in in context it makes a lot more sense .....no subsidy here. But please thank us for the cheap electricity we send ya to counter the expensive elec made down there. But lets not get into a subsidy battle, it is the resources of the north that made Bay St in 1950's and still makes many a millionaire for the Haliburton area. MY income taxes pay for your highway 400 improvements and yours pay for my measley highway 638 improvements that happen once a decade. lSo lets get back to Snowmachines please, we had frost here this morn and animal preps for winter seem to point to an early snowfall.

I am a little confused at where you were going with your post..my buddy does live outside Chapleau..well outside..Borden Lk is quite a hike from the town proper. There is no fire dept. water is from a well, he incinerates his garbage, plows his own driveway, has septic, and as a matter of fact..I do exactly the same here in Haliburton, except we do have a landfill/ recycle station. I am not sure what the heck you are talking about "making a millionaire for the Haliburton area". There are very few in this area that are millionaires. Those that are are ex hockey players. Highway 400 is nowhere near here either..I think your geography is messed up. It's hwy 35 or 118 that runs up here. Perhaps you are thinking Muskoka??

[Panther340]

And I guess we will have to agree that we disagree, because comparing Haliburton to township outside of Chapleau is like comparing a Lada to a Jag. .

ps, my wife's boss is a Haliburton millionaire living there who makes his money off Algoma resources, we see both sides of the coin.

back to snowmachines please

[Wildbill]

Think provincially. United we stand divided we fall.

[02Sled]

Think provincially. United we stand divided we fall.

well said Bill. We need to think beyond the scope of just our club and the impact on the sport.

[catinental couch]

Hear hear,totally agree

[Lep]

Think provincially. United we stand divided we fall.

WB....Interesting quote...

[blakesnowcrest]

OUR PERMIT IS A BARGAIN!

Many riders dont think that. I hearmore people complaining about the permit price then telling me that its a bargain.

[02Sled]

Many riders dont think that. I hearmore people complaining about the permit price then telling me that its a bargain.

Those are probably the same people who I hear complain with things like it started snowing at midnight. It's now 10:00 am how come the trail isn't groomed yet or how come the heavily used trail is all beat up by 3:00 pm.

Then they would be the ones that also ask me if that it the sled they give me for Trail Patrol. How much do I get per hour and do they pay O/T.

If they had any concept of what goes into providing the trails they would sing a different tune. Due to time and logistics constraints in the fall months I typically don't get to do much on trail prep but I do salute those that do and thank them.

[yamahas]

You are mistaken, we do not pay for val tags on sleds in the North, and we pay 1/2 price for car stickers and no e-tests.

How far north do you have to be?

[Viperules700]

How far north do you have to be?

About 100km south of northbay is the dividing line.

[Canuck]

Wow. Doesn't seem too far north.