02Sled Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Canuck... if you register your vehicles using your cottage address you are exempt from Drive Clean if you are in Muskoka or north of there. I came across this when I was avoiding David Millers $60 per vehicle tax. It was going to hit me for $240 in one shot. Retroactive to the past year and the upcoming year. The registered address is at the lake and the mailing address is in Toronto. Made sure the insurance reflected the same and that they understood I was still driving in Toronto and that there was no misrepresentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToSlow Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 or you can reg as farm vehicles and not have the drive clean crap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Huron county is exempt from drive clean (out your wallet) too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Canuck... if you register your vehicles using your cottage address you are exempt from Drive Clean if you are in Muskoka or north of there. I came across this when I was avoiding David Millers $60 per vehicle tax. It was going to hit me for $240 in one shot. Retroactive to the past year and the upcoming year. The registered address is at the lake and the mailing address is in Toronto. Made sure the insurance reflected the same and that they understood I was still driving in Toronto and that there was no misrepresentation. You would have to have your driver's license registered with your lake property as well. Everything has to match. Also most insurance companies state that your vechile has to be kept 80 percent of it's time at the registered address. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamahas Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Well in that case I don't thing its unreasonable to use val tags as a permit and make every registered snowmobile pay. Maybe make it so if your 100km's north of the OFSC trails then your val tag is free instead of the majority of the Provence (geographically)? That way if you don't have a trails close to you you don't have to pay. Just an idea. I am just thinking if the OFSC got money from the val tags why not bring that line up a bit? 100km's south, I just miss that here in Ottawa. NB is more west then north of me, seems a bit low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamahas Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Double post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther340 Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Well Yamahas , it nice of you to decide that the rest of the province that does not use your trails should pay for your sport. We already allow that some of our taxes go to that sport because we recognize the American Tourist component. I bought a trail permit a few years ago when we lived in Elliot Lake, but since moving to this neck of the woods the trail conditions have not allowed us to bother . I even had a ofsc trail cross one of my fields back of Leeburn , but we sold that property. (Glad I did I would not of ever allowed shared use with ATV's) ............I frequent this website to see how the sport is doing, but now I see how many here want to foist their sport on rest of us taxpayers..........I get frustrated. You want to ride you should pay for your ride. ............bye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamahas Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 I understand what your saying. Nothing can be perfect for everyone. This system does not seem to be working all that great from what I gather on here. A lot of people seem to be happy with the systems in other places outside of Ontario, maybe its time to incorporate some things that work in other areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 You would have to have your driver's license registered with your lake property as well. Everything has to match. Also most insurance companies state that your vechile has to be kept 80 percent of it's time at the registered address. I did switch the drivers licence. You suggest 80% at the registered address. I told my insurance exactly what I was doing and why and they didn't have a problem with it. At 80% you would only be allowed to be at your cottage 73 days per year. Fri. Sat, Sun would give you 156 days alone. When I did this I spent most of the summer at the lake. Jun, Jul, Aug, I had 6 weeks at the lake and 5 in Toronto. Roughly 150 days a year at the lake. I would spend at least 40% of my time at the lake and they know that. I would never come close to 80% of my time in any one location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Thanks for the info re: registration guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Only those that ride OFSC trails should be forced to pay for them. How is it fair to ask a person that has no intention of using OFSC trails to pay one cent towards them? Need more funding, raise the price of the permit, or stop wasting money. I know many many guys that ice fish and never use the trails. Sledders are by average higher income earners and if you cannot afford to ride then don't, just like I cannot afford to run a 60 foot cruiser, but maybe if all other boat owners subsidized my fuel I could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Only those that ride OFSC trails should be forced to pay for them. How is it fair to ask a person that has no intention of using OFSC trails to pay one cent towards them? Need more funding, raise the price of the permit, or stop wasting money. I know many many guys that ice fish and never use the trails. Sledders are by average higher income earners and if you cannot afford to ride then don't, just like I cannot afford to run a 60 foot cruiser, but maybe if all other boat owners subsidized my fuel I could. Let's extend that total user pay system to everything then. How about make all roads toll roads. User pays. I can see some of those northern roads costing about $10 per km based on low volume usage and high maintenance cost. You need to go get a bag of milk at the store. Add $20 for the round trip. Of course in perhaps Toronto they would also be toll roads but with the number of vehicles sharing the cost it may be $0.01 per km. Or how about the education system. You don't have kids or kids in the school system anymore your property taxes don't include an education levy. Those that use the education system let them pay the full value. Watch your property taxes quadrupple if you have kids. The province already has a vested interest in snowmobiling and the off shoot benefits to the smaller communities and provides funding. Those guys that ice fish. Let's charge them a fee for putting their ice hut out there to cover the costs associated with enforcement of the huts off the ice by date and burden the fishermen with the true cost of fisheries management in Ontario. Basically there are always give and takes at the provincial level and allways will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther340 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Zoso it is waste of breath to try to get folks like 02 Sled to understand that they essentially are wanting their sport to be on the backs of others. He comes up with false statistics out of a hat and compares winter sport trails ......to highways that carry Ontario's trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 If you not using the OFSC trails than you shouldn't pay to support them. We already pay to support big city tranist and the GO train to name a few and I don't use any of them. I'm tired of supporting things I don't use. At one time I had a 71 TNT340 that was plated and insured. I didn't buy a permit because I just bush wacked with it, miles from the nearest OFSC trail. I had no trailer for it so there was no way it was every going to see a trail. Would have pissed me off if I had to pay extra in to a system I could not get too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Zoso it is waste of breath to try to get folks like 02 Sled to understand that they essentially are wanting their sport to be on the backs of others. He comes up with false statistics out of a hat and compares winter sport trails ......to highways that carry Ontario's trade. Wrong. I understand the point you make and it is valid however I am just citing precedence where so much is already subsized all over the province and country already. The Trent Severn Waterway is part of Parks Canada. Call your MP and register your objection to your tax dollars subsidizing the cost of boaters using a waterway for their personal pleasure that you don't. How about the provincial parks that you don't use. Last report I saw indicated the provincial parks are not self funding. They just announced reductions in staff at a number of the parks that are under utilized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slomo Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Only those that ride OFSC trails should be forced to pay for them. How is it fair to ask a person that has no intention of using OFSC trails to pay one cent towards them? Need more funding, raise the price of the permit, or stop wasting money. I know many many guys that ice fish and never use the trails. Sledders are by average higher income earners and if you cannot afford to ride then don't, just like I cannot afford to run a 60 foot cruiser, but maybe if all other boat owners subsidized my fuel I could. I see your point, but wish to take it one step further. Having these facilities and infrastructure in place provides the future opportunity for use. Not everyone uses the GO train, but on the happenstance they take a bus to Toronto and need to visit people along the route, the GO is there. You may not have the financial means for a boat right now, but you might in the future, or you might want to rent a houseboat. The Trent-Severn and Rideau canal systems are there for you. I was helping new Canadians with some shore fishing related info last summer on the Trent and each time a boat went by, they were definitely paying attention to it. While the sled trails rely on volunteer labour, they would not exist without funding wherever it comes from and in addition to current users, it provides an opportunity to people who might aspire to either buying or renting a sled. Without the trails, no future opportunity for this past time. After having read and listened to much of the goings on at the OFSC AGM, the one thing that seems to be neglected is the active pursuit of new groups and individuals to enter the sport. TV and radio commercials, free family days, and trade shows aren't going to do it - they aren't working now. What is needed is direct personal meeting contact with various ethnic groups and other societies where sledding is 'made easy' to people who naturally wouldn't even think about. It was tough enough for someone like me who knows this province to figure out the trails, the licenses, passes and registration etc. The task is daunting to new people and this is where major growth in the sport could be taking place. But each year, the same old stuff keeps coming up again and again.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I see your point, but wish to take it one step further. Having these facilities and infrastructure in place provides the future opportunity for use. Not everyone uses the GO train, but on the happenstance they take a bus to Toronto and need to visit people along the route, the GO is there. You may not have the financial means for a boat right now, but you might in the future, or you might want to rent a houseboat. The Trent-Severn and Rideau canal systems are there for you. I was helping new Canadians with some shore fishing related info last summer on the Trent and each time a boat went by, they were definitely paying attention to it. While the sled trails rely on volunteer labour, they would not exist without funding wherever it comes from and in addition to current users, it provides an opportunity to people who might aspire to either buying or renting a sled. Without the trails, no future opportunity for this past time. After having read and listened to much of the goings on at the OFSC AGM, the one thing that seems to be neglected is the active pursuit of new groups and individuals to enter the sport. TV and radio commercials, free family days, and trade shows aren't going to do it - they aren't working now. What is needed is direct personal meeting contact with various ethnic groups and other societies where sledding is 'made easy' to people who naturally wouldn't even think about. It was tough enough for someone like me who knows this province to figure out the trails, the licenses, passes and registration etc. The task is daunting to new people and this is where major growth in the sport could be taking place. But each year, the same old stuff keeps coming up again and again.... I agree... it isn't an easy sport to get into unless you know someone already doing it. I used to see snowmobiles on trailers on the hwy and think I might enjoy that but hadn't the slightest idea where they ride what was needed etc. I envisioned they were going to somewhere if the far north where they would ride on crown land. I looked at Muskoka and figured too much private property in the way to be able to really ride anywhere. Then a friend introduced me to the sport and I was hooked. What was to be a 1 hr ride became 7 and two weeks later I had a sled. If you don't really know what is involved or where to start other than buyiing a sled it can be very intimidating. Many people don't want to make the major investment until they are sure they like it. Sled rentals aren't anywhere near as prevelant or as affordable as they once were (thanks to insurance costs) which will also deter some people. An 8 hour rental in the Collingwood area is $350. That is a lot of money for one day for one person to try out a sport they are not sure they will like. Not the fault of the business just the cost they have to bear is passed on. One of the biggest challenges is where to keep the sled(s) and the ability to tow them. There are countless people living in condos and apartments in the GTA who I am sure would love to try sledding. (the demographics have shifted over the years in terms of population living in detached homes vs. apt,/condo). They drive a small car so can't pull a trailer or they have an SUV that would pull a trailer but nowhere to park one. It can't go in the underground garage at the condo. I bet if there were secure locations where people could leave their sleds for the season and simply have to drive their car with their suits and helmets to you would see more people become involved. Perhaps your local marina located on or near a trail or even the snowmobile club house with a fenced and monitored compound. The cost of the fence is cheap and the cost of on site security could be carried by the fee paid for access. If this is done by the clubs lets not look at this as a significant money earner. How about a non profit break even but it gets more sledders buying permits in your area. Kind of like a loss leader. It may take time to become known or catch on but I bet it would for those without a cottage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther340 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I see that there are a few here that are very passionate about their sport , so much so that they are forgetting it is still just a sport and one that already gets a fair amount of tax payer money ( eg bridges etc etc) but so need to realize that your expensive sport cannot be foisted onto innocent taxpayers to pay further on validation tags etc. This course of action will only either anger those tax payers or will cause them to think " okay I get free use of the trails" . Neither result is a hurdle the OFSC should be putting on themselves. Now here is some out of the box thinking. Is it possible that the pendulum has swung to far to make the sport viable ,so reset of the parameters is needed. Perhaps this is like putting a High service exquisite french restaraunt in a town of 700 like Echo Bay. Yes we would love it but we could all only afford it once a year. Is it possible that with the last two or more decades of snow machine manufacturers making the machines go faster and bigger, that the rider expectations have become that they need the trails groomed to support those speeds and groomed two or three wide for safety. The trails had to be longer or else a loop would be done in an hour at those high compfortable trail speeds with few bumps etc. So the snow machine clubs over the decades has had to get bigger more sofisticated expensive equipment to groom or more need for sophisticated bridges.... etc etc. The pendulum swung very far to an much more expensive sport for all parties. Is there a happy medium compromise that will eventually occur in the decades ahead where a 400 cc machine with good suspension and good gas mileage is the normal. The trails are shorter and maybe narrower and only groomed once a week. Rental guided tours to bring new riders into the sport are common...........maybe setting trail and machine expectations down a peg would make the sport more viable far into the future and bring folks like me back in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Before we get too much into the valtag debate..let's not forget who subsidized the 407! Continue to pay the original deficit and then had it sold from under our feet to a private consortium. Now there is some serious money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Before we get too much into the valtag debate..let's not forget who subsidized the 407! Continue to pay the original deficit and then had it sold from under our feet to a private consortium. Now there is some serious money. Yes 2.9billion to build and leased it away for 99 years for 3.1billion. Bruce Nuclear was the same deal, billions to built than lease it out for pennies on the dollar until it hits end life, than tax payers get it back just in time to spend, the hundreds of millions to take it apart. As far as the Rideau and Trent systems, the point was kind of missed. As a boater if you don't use them you don't have to directly pay for them as a boat owner. Sure you tax dollars help fund them just as our tax dollars help fund the OFSC system. The issue is, should we force everyone who owns a sled to pay extra to support a trail system they may not use. No, if your not using it they why should you pay extra on your yearly tags to go directly to the trail system. That would be like telling boats you new to buy a Trent system pass even if you own a sail boat that is too tall to go up the system. The OFSC is unique system. We have a government control permit, for a system not operated by the government. Common logic says if you can afford the whole thing, with the money you have, you down size and restructure to make thing works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lep Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Some very good post's..... its a real shame it is falling on deaf ear's....we can bitch about what ever BUT in the end without bodies/peeps/volunteers....we will have nothing......its not all about $$ yes it helps, but without the bodies to make this $$ work what will we do then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 As I understand it, the system was using a cellular carrier ( I think it was Rogers) to send the messages. Using Cellular would not be reliable for this type of use as the groomers run out of range often in some areas. Rogers or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 Using Cellular would not be reliable for this type of use as the groomers run out of range often in some areas. Rogers or not. Exactly! We were originally told it was to use satellite messaging. I think it has been upgraded now? We'll see how it works this winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Can you hear me now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Maybe they are using those new cell towers that are disguised as trees? I heard somebody set up a tree stand in one for deer hunting this week! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.