OFSC AGM - Who is going?

[Panther340]

Well of course the majority of those that normally buys a OFSC permit will agree it would be better to use the MTO Val tag if it means they can pay less..............but for the rest of the snowmobile owners in Ontario that do not need or have access to OFSC trails are essentially being asked to subsidize the "touring snowmobile sport". It is completely wrong and to be frank, self serving to expect it.

Unfortunately even the OFSC survey being done will only reflect the wants of OFSC trail riders because there are very few non trail riders like me that frequent this site or OFSC site. So OFSC will be able to pretend they consulted with the public but they only consulted with their trail riders. All I know is that where in past years where I could get val tag for free for the use of my machine on my farm and rural roads around me, ......the OFSc would want me to pay $100 or more a year in future to support a trail sport I don't use. Maybe the government should raise the car license fee and support downhill skiing , or bowling , or cross country skiing, those sports bring tourists too. ITS A SPORT FOLKS....WHY SHOULD YOU BE SUBSIDIZED MORE THAN YOU ARE.

On another thread someone mentioned a million dollar bridge over the Tik River , that may not even have trails groomed to it anymore........waste of money ?

[02Sled]

Well of course the majority of those that normally buys a OFSC permit will agree it would be better to use the MTO Val tag if it means they can pay less..............but for the rest of the snowmobile owners in Ontario that do not need or have access to OFSC trails are essentially being asked to subsidize the "touring snowmobile sport". It is completely wrong and to be frank, self serving to expect it.

Unfortunately even the OFSC survey being done will only reflect the wants of OFSC trail riders because there are very few non trail riders like me that frequent this site or OFSC site. So OFSC will be able to pretend they consulted with the public but they only consulted with their trail riders. All I know is that where in past years where I could get val tag for free for the use of my machine on my farm and rural roads around me, ......the OFSc would want me to pay $100 or more a year in future to support a trail sport I don't use. Maybe the government should raise the car license fee and support downhill skiing , or bowling , or cross country skiing, those sports bring tourists too. ITS A SPORT FOLKS....WHY SHOULD YOU BE SUBSIDIZED MORE THAN YOU ARE.

On another thread someone mentioned a million dollar bridge over the Tik River , that may not even have trails groomed to it anymore........waste of money ?

There are subsidies every where you look. Those who don't fish or hunt pay for fisheries and wildlife management. Those who don't boat pay for the Trent Severn Waterway and Great Lakes Management. Those who ski do get subsidies every time there is a bad snow season. Blue Mountain for example has gotten subsidies in past years with little snow and they have vast financial resources. Those who don't go camping subsidise the Provincial and National Parks. I don't use the TTC but it is subsidized. We don't have kids but pay education taxes in Toronto and Georgian Bay Township. The list could go on forever. Devil's advocate only.... the North pays income tax at a reduced rate, licence plates for their vehicles at a reduced rate, exemption from vehicles being checked for emissions, free val tags for snowmobiles. Look at any insurance policy. It is essentially a sharing of risk where everyone pays for your loss. It's just part of the society we live in. Why should you be subsidized any more than you are today.

[dweese]

There are subsidies every where you look. Those who don't fish or hunt pay for fisheries and wildlife management. Those who don't boat pay for the Trent Severn Waterway and Great Lakes Management. Those who ski do get subsidies every time there is a bad snow season. Blue Mountain for example has gotten subsidies in past years with little snow and they have vast financial resources. Those who don't go camping subsidise the Provincial and National Parks. I don't use the TTC but it is subsidized. We don't have kids but pay education taxes in Toronto and Georgian Bay Township. The list could go on forever. Devil's advocate only.... the North pays income tax at a reduced rate, licence plates for their vehicles at a reduced rate, exemption from vehicles being checked for emissions, free val tags for snowmobiles. Look at any insurance policy. It is essentially a sharing of risk where everyone pays for your loss. It's just part of the society we live in. Why should you be subsidized any more than you are today.

Bingo....

It's the way the world works. Like it or not, non-users or minority users pay to support the majority of users.

However if its really only 60% of sleds have permits, how do you make the other 40% pay to support the 60%?

Those numbers are too close. For sure of that 40% of not trail permit buyers there is an amount who ride the trails anyways. Anyone know what that number is? Is it 20%, or maybe 30%? That would mean 25% of the selds on the trail are freeloaders.

[Panther340]

O2Sled .......when the OFSC trails start carrying the freight of Canada like the locks and highways do then you have an arguement otherwise your examples are very focussed examples with little or no proof that they are not carrying themselves.

You had me laughing at Wildlife Management though as if you as a taxpayer should not be concerned about protecting and managing Canada's wildlife. You know as well as I do your sport is very well subsidized each year for trails and bridges and OPP etc etc etc. You are comparing apples and oranges, but we have argued this before.

Having a discussion with you is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock over the pieces, poop on the board, a strut around like it's victorious!

[dweese]

O2Sled .......when the OFSC trails start carrying the freight of Canada like the locks and highways do then you have an arguement otherwise your examples are very focussed examples with little or no proof that they are not carrying themselves.

You had me laughing at Wildlife Management though as if you as a taxpayer should not be concerned about protecting and managing Canada's wildlife. You know as well as I do your sport is very well subsidized each year for trails and bridges and OPP etc etc etc. You are comparing apples and oranges, but we have argued this before.

Having a discussion with you is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock over the pieces, poop on the board, a strut around like it's victorious!

I'll play chess with you....

The Trent system carries almost no freight anymore it's a complete recreation use waterway for the most part now adays. Seaway locks for sure, Trent not a chance.

But for get that....

Look at all the special intrest groups that get our tax dollars fund. The Ontario Arts Council, I for one don't give a damn about the Arts, but some people do, so everyone's tax dollars support it. So someone in Stratford can enjoy A Mid-Summer's Night.

How about GO Transit, someone in Thunder Bay is paying taxes to Ontario but will most likely never use it. Hell I drive 150km in to Pickering everyday and pay taxes to support GO but can us it because it doesn't start anywhere close to me.

Making all seld owners support the OFSC is a fair way of doing it. Less goverment tax dollars would be give, as the OFSC would have a higher income base. Saving the non-sled owners tax dollars from being directed towards something they don't use.

[Panther340]

Except you are conveniently forgetting how much the OFSC sport already gets.

Lets admit it the sport started with simple trails to get from one lake to another and get around the area with family and kids towed behind the 300 cc Snow Cruiser or 250 Elan.

But then expectations grew and legal ramifications grew. The trails needed to be double/triple wide, they needed to be table top smooth , because folks wanted to go faster and get to put a notch on the belt on how many miles they did in a day, instead of a short family outing . So trail costs went up. The machine manufacturers did not help either, the engines needed to be tripled in size and HP. They need to corner like a race car , and be able to go 100 km/h , so then cost to buy one went up dramatically. Machines became more complex so you could no longer change out an engine on the lake (like I did with my Elan ) So costs for mechanical work needed went up. With faster more expensive machines the insurance rates went up both for the machine and for trail liability. So who really caused the cost of Snowmobiling to go up ? So why do you think you lost trail riders willing to pay? The sport now is for the guy that owns a $10,000 machine , a $4500 trailer , $500 of high tech clothes suitable for 8 hrs in cold, and has an average family income of what $75,000 to $100,000 (I can’t remember the stats were here) That guy wants to go from point A to point B as fast as trail allows him. He wants smooth trail comfort and dry river crossing with million dollar bridges on the taxpayer dime. It does not matter that many feeder OFSC trails don’t even see a rider for days at a time , he wants those trails ready and usable for 2 to 3 months of each year and paid for because $210 a year , (a pittance compared to his equipment and gas) is too much to pay he demands it be subsidized by taxpayer even more than it is now .

Yep not self serving at all ! Now compare that to a guy that goes to the local lake and goes boat fishing on his own dime, even the boat launches are no longer free or even publicly serviced anymore. And comparing to TTC is not even applicable, getting people to work using a less pollution efficient means is quite different than going for a random trail ride cause you feel like it.

There I said my piece , unless I am mistaken this is a site for all snowmobilers not just OFSC riders, but I realize most are, but you need to at least see the point of view of the rest of us silent owners that you are now asking to help you do even more for your upscale sport.

[dweese]

Panther340, I see your point completely, and maybe if the system didn't have so many freeloaders there would not be a target on the back of ever sled owner to link permits with reg tags.

Sure the OFSC gets some tax cash, I wouldn't say it's lots. Quebec gets lots we get table scraps. Like I said, if it was a linked permit system there would be an overall increase in funds and than the OFSC wouldn't need a tax payer handout.

There is nothing more than I hate is to pay for something I can't use. But sometimes the little guy get stepped on.

As for this being a sledder board it is. Read some of the post we hate on the OFSC and their brainless ways as well.

[Fred Quimby]

All good point Fred, but it does come down to the fact the current system is broken, and doesn't work.

Adding more trail patrols is a great idea, problem is OPP makes it a money grab, and training memebers to be trail patrol works sometimes works, but the few I've interacted with all had inflated heads thinking they where cops.

The val tag deal is used someplaces, and I would rather pay $110 for my sticker than $215 for the current sticker/permit system. But now we have up the province in total control of our funding system.

It's a hard call anyway you look at it.

Agreed. The current system is a disaster and could be getting worse. Many clubs are actually not using the STOP officers as much as they used to, as the fees that get billed back to the club is pretty hefty versus the actual benefit. Especially when these guys are not laying trespassing charges and going to court, they are getting paid to cruise the trails and interact.. a trail patroller can do that for a lot less. The OPP are from what I have been told is not even too fond of the STOP program as much, hence the beefed up SAVE team training.

I wish we could implement a Valtag system that would result in a lower fee for all and yet yield more back to the clubs..having said that I don't see it happening once the Government sees the inflow of $$$. Plus it's on less damn decal to remove!

[Black Dog]

A little off topic but with today's smart phones and their ability to read those new square bar codes couldn't we add a feature to the permit and license sticker that would allow the phone to scan them trial side and ensure that they are legal? And for those on a trail without a permit a scan of the license sticker would red flag that person's driver's license. The phone could record time / date / GPS location so it would be very hard to argue the ticket. With that said it would still be better to come up with a system where enforcement wasn't such a big requirement and everyone could just go sledding for the fun of it.

[sledjunk]

I think there would be a huge privacy issue with that.

[Black Dog]

No different than the 407- if you use the road you agree to the terms.

[Fred Quimby]

Probably no worse than anybody using an ATM card or any other chip embedded card now. Powers that be know where you are and what you are doing 24/7

[sledjunk]

No different than the 407- if you use the road you agree to the terms.

Really?? When was the last time that you could capture information on your smartphone from someone's transponder? That is where the issue lies. You suggested using bar codes and reading them with a smartphone.

[sledjunk]

Probably no worse than anybody using an ATM card or any other chip embedded card now. Powers that be know where you are and what you are doing 24/7

Again, when were you able to scan someone's ATM Card or chip embedded card with your smartphone. Even the Credit Card readers for the smartphones (e.g. Square) require a specialized application and no information is stored on the phone and very little private information is even dsiplayed. Any ATM or credit card system requires encryption and proven security applications to protect privacy before they are even accepted into the banking system or VISA / MasterCard systems.

Privacy is the reason that the Ministry disallowed online permit sales by individual permit selling entities a few years ago and then the online sales were arranged through a fulfillment house for the OFSC.

[x-man800]

Agm was sept 13 guys,,,,,,,time for a new topic? Did anyone get a new sled? Lets hear about that

[Black Dog]

Again, when were you able to scan someone's ATM Card or chip embedded card with your smartphone. Even the Credit Card readers for the smartphones (e.g. Square) require a specialized application and no information is stored on the phone and very little private information is even dsiplayed. Any ATM or credit card system requires encryption and proven security applications to protect privacy before they are even accepted into the banking system or VISA / MasterCard systems.

Privacy is the reason that the Ministry disallowed online permit sales by individual permit selling entities a few years ago and then the online sales were arranged through a fulfillment house for the OFSC.

The idea was not that anyone could do it, only authorized personnel whether that's OPP or Trail Patrol- just a thought. You would have to have access to a secure database to use it. No different than the police checking a license plate.

[dweese]

Actually, go to a Lowes store, they have iPhones on the floor with built in chip / pass readers to do on floor sales. So a smartphone can read your bank card, hardware not for you and me. But it's out there so those who want to steal your info will have it too.

[Fred Quimby]

Again, when were you able to scan someone's ATM Card or chip embedded card with your smartphone. Even the Credit Card readers for the smartphones (e.g. Square) require a specialized application and no information is stored on the phone and very little private information is even dsiplayed. Any ATM or credit card system requires encryption and proven security applications to protect privacy before they are even accepted into the banking system or VISA / MasterCard systems.

Privacy is the reason that the Ministry disallowed online permit sales by individual permit selling entities a few years ago and then the online sales were arranged through a fulfillment house for the OFSC.

I didn't say anything about scanning a chip card with a phone...arrrgh! RTFP...I likened it to the ability for a third party to know your every move such as using an ATM, where you used it, how much you with drew, what you were wearing etc.

The technology is there in your DL now. It can be scanned in any number of locations, MTO office, Customs, police cruiser...there is no privacy issue under PIPEDA for a professional carrying out the course of his or her duties. So why would it matter about the data on a tag, if scanned by a STOP officer or Trail Patroller?

[killer]

Agreed. The current system is a disaster and could be getting worse. Many clubs are actually not using the STOP officers as much as they used to, as the fees that get billed back to the club is pretty hefty versus the actual benefit. Especially when these guys are not laying trespassing charges and going to court, they are getting paid to cruise the trails and interact.. a trail patroller can do that for a lot less. The OPP are from what I have been told is not even too fond of the STOP program as much, hence the beefed up SAVE team training.

I wish we could implement a Valtag system that would result in a lower fee for all and yet yield more back to the clubs..having said that I don't see it happening once the Government sees the inflow of $$$. Plus it's on less damn decal to remove!

You sound confused about how STOP, SAVE and Trail Patrol operate. I've never heard of fees being paid to STOP from a club either, its an OPP program. where are you getting your information from?

as my club's trail patrol coordinator, we dont interact with the police at all. They dont tell us when or where they are going to be generally. They ride up the trail and often we will have a checkpoint going, so they join in sometimes, but that's it. Our district has tried to get a better heads up on where they are set up and will tell the cops sometimes if there is a big checkpoint just so they dont do their own checkpoint a few miles down the trail. never heard of a club using STOP, maybe some do because they have a relationship, but its rare IMO.

As far as OPP not happy with STOP, that's heresay, but can understand why anyone isn't fond of them. They would rather write a ticket for failure to display valid permit $200 than lay a tresspass charge, but the ticket has mroe teeth than the tresspass act (even though its less than current after dec 1 permits!!! ridiculous!!!)

[Fred Quimby]

You sound confused about how STOP, SAVE and Trail Patrol operate. I've never heard of fees being paid to STOP from a club either, its an OPP program. where are you getting your information from?

as my club's trail patrol coordinator, we dont interact with the police at all. They dont tell us when or where they are going to be generally. They ride up the trail and often we will have a checkpoint going, so they join in sometimes, but that's it. Our district has tried to get a better heads up on where they are set up and will tell the cops sometimes if there is a big checkpoint just so they dont do their own checkpoint a few miles down the trail. never heard of a club using STOP, maybe some do because they have a relationship, but its rare IMO.

As far as OPP not happy with STOP, that's heresay, but can understand why anyone isn't fond of them. They would rather write a ticket for failure to display valid permit $200 than lay a tresspass charge, but the ticket has more teeth than the tresspass act (even though its less than current after dec 1 permits!!! ridiculous!!!)

Take a closer look at either your district or clubs books (budgets).. STOP programs bills back to the clubs for mileage and expenses..it's not totally funded by the OPP. They operate under the arm of the OPP, trained by them and may ride with the OPP SAVE teams or regular OPP patrols. I am not confused.I understand that the SAVE Team is a separate unit of specialized OPP Officers. snowmobile, ATV and vessel enforcement unit. I also understand (also as a club trail patrol) what limitations a trail patrol has (which is basically a goodwill ambassador). Your club could, dependent on the availability of OPP in your area certainly interact with regular OPP patrols on the trails and certainly the STOP program, if available. Some clubs chose to..some not.

I can tell you we were billed at our club a hefty amount from STOP patrols last Winter as were many clubs in D6, yet there were few if any trespass charges filed and not much of anything else either. That is why our club has decided to train more trail patrollers and put the visibility out there where it counts as opposed to paying through the nose for a program that isn't doing all that much at the end of the day.

The use of STOP programs is not mandatory.

Many are not aware that STOP bills back for their services, which is why some clubs are not using their services any longer. There was a time when their presence on the trail meant that those who chose not to buy passes were either being sold a pass trailside or charged with trespassing or in situations where trail patrollers rode with STOP, they sold them the pass on the spot. The program is not benefiting the clubs any longer in many areas and that is what our club looked. We will still use them but not as frequent as before. Cost versus benefit.

[Canuck]

Thanks FQ.

Quite an eye opener.

[sledjunk]

I did not know that there was a cost for use of the STOP program as we do not have a program available in our area. Very good to know! Thanks FQ

[FreezerBurnt]

Agreed. The current system is a disaster and could be getting worse. Many clubs are actually not using the STOP officers as much as they used to, as the fees that get billed back to the club is pretty hefty versus the actual benefit. Especially when these guys are not laying trespassing charges and going to court, they are getting paid to cruise the trails and interact.. a trail patroller can do that for a lot less. The OPP are from what I have been told is not even too fond of the STOP program as much, hence the beefed up SAVE team training.

I wish we could implement a Valtag system that would result in a lower fee for all and yet yield more back to the clubs..having said that I don't see it happening once the Government sees the inflow of $$$. Plus it's on less damn decal to remove!

STOP officers get paid to crusie and chat

Now I heard it all

Who do you know that is a STOP officer

I know there are a couple STOP officers on here

[Fred Quimby]

$1700.00+ billed back to our club in D6 for travel expenses. Not saying they get paid for their time, but they are billing back to the clubs for expenses, so..I'm not sure what happened to the OFSC's mandate to take the burden of the costs away from the clubs to ensure consistency? Because now clubs are looking at not using STOP or greatly reducing their use because of these costs, it's one of those things that has to give when pass sales drop. When STOP officers are not laying trespass charges and letting people go, the clubs are not selling passes trail side and therefore not balancing the cost of STOP versus the benefit.

That creates total inconsistency in the program. Not to mention that there are very few if any in some areas. Don't get me wrong. I'm in no way against them. However they need to be funded properly if they are going to work. Otherwise I think you could be just as effective with a good local trail patrol program.