OFSC AGM - Who is going?

[zoso]

This idea of regionalizing the areas is a play to segregate the north. It is exactly what i expected out of the current crop pulling the strings.

[Bark Biter]

The motion was amended to ask the committee to approach MTO for approval for this season. If that doesn't happen, there is another motion to try again for next year.

TY for answering as I did not get back on puter till now.

[02Sled]

I have been on a few teleconferences but none to this extent. I would expect that there would have to be somewhere in the order of 3 - 400 connections and it might be difficult to manage and hear everything. As well, there are the private, one on one discussions that take place outside of the meetings, (at coffee and lunch breaks) that provide additional perspective. Also, voting might be difficult as well?

I don't know that it needs to be a two day meeting, though. Location is always an issue but as long as you have a large meeting room and enough accommodations nearby, we could probably get by a little cheaper. Might not be as much fun, though.

You're defintely right about the fun... we just had a senior leadership online meeting. 2000 + people signed in. Your laptop provides the audio and the microphone. You want to ask a question you click on comment and the moderator enables you micophone in sequence. The senior mangement then responds. It is doable. Definitely not as fun though.

[02Sled]

I know this isn't the cause for hailburton area. The atv club there keeps trails maintained that they share with sledders, buy charging permit fees. They do some regular trail grading, bridge repairs on shared trails. I can see what you are seeing as a huge dilemma.

Similar for the ATV club in our area. We are working together more and more.

[zoso]

You're defintely right about the fun... we just had a senior leadership online meeting. 2000 + people signed in. Your laptop provides the audio and the microphone. You want to ask a question you click on comment and the moderator enables you micophone in sequence. The senior mangement then responds. It is doable. Definitely not as fun though.

I suggested thsat and was balked at by the usual suspects that love to spend money that should be on the snow.

[Wildbill]

You're defintely right about the fun... we just had a senior leadership online meeting. 2000 + people signed in. Your laptop provides the audio and the microphone. You want to ask a question you click on comment and the moderator enables you micophone in sequence. The senior mangement then responds. It is doable. Definitely not as fun though.

interesting.

[Fred Quimby]

oh its certainly teh case for Haliburton area when you consider the damage ATVs cause to the trails. Yes they have come and helped out on many occasions, but they do far more damage then they help to reverse. Not $1 of their $95 (I believe) permit goes to the trails outside of a few bridges they may have built for themselves...

there is no question ATVers need to do a lot more for shared trail maintenance. Not to mention the fact that most ATVers aren't members of any organization and the trails were built by the snowmobile clubs decades ago.

I hate to jump all over you But..you are dead wrong in just about everything you said.

The ATV's that do the damage and the off roaders that rip up the trails on un-approved trails are the ones you need to go after. Not the ATV club and responsible riders.

HATVA is investing over 40 thousand in trail work on the B112 between Minden and Haliburton. Not all due to ATV damage but because of poor drainage, bad soil conditions that make it tough for not only ATV traffic but for grooming once the damn area freezes up. This project alone has involved over hundreds of hours of environmental assessments, wildlife reports, turtle studies, MNR approval, fisheries and oceans approval, not to mention engineers reports, private landowner approval, as well as endless meetings with council and then...the tender process for the work. SO..my suggestion is to really know what you are talking about before you bash ATVers and put all of us in the same bundle. Our club is frustrated with renegade ATVers and jeepsters too, plus these fools in the Suzuki sidekicks that seem very popular for off-roading. There are idiots that sled in areas that they shouldn't just the same as those that ATV where they shouldn't. Just so you know..it was the off roaders that wrecked two bridges..one being the Anson creek bridge. Not ATV traffic. I have personally seen these fools line these jeeps and Suzuki sidekicks up end to end while travelling over bridges..by far exceeding the weight limits and damaging the structure underneath.

HATVA has also invested over 15K in trail work for the Haliburton Rail line. Repairing wash outs, bridges,grading, trash removal, calcium application, brushing, signage, drainage culverts and the list goes on.

By the way HATVA also insures all ATV trails the same way the OFSC does..there is a cost to that. We also have signed land use permits so there is no trespassing either. Your quote of $95.00 is also wrong. The annual single pass is $110.00.

We cover 1500+km's of signed, mapped and insured trails.

Please educate yourself before you speak about which you know little. Hope I was able to share some knowledge. PM me if you seek further clarification on what HATVA does.

[Fred Quimby]

One issue that wasn't mentioned but needs to be is that the OFSC & Clubs are spending huge $$$ on bridge replacements due to MNR regulations and the ATV'rs are getting the benefit of this huge funding by snowmobilers and not paying a cent towards the bridges.

There needs to be mandatory fees on each registered ATV which will go to Province for Trail improvements.

Too many ATV's are freeloading on snowmobilers $$ and work.

See above....

[Wildman]

in my opinion it is ludicrous to even seriously consider lower the permit price at all. There is a major lack of money now.....what r we gonna do, pass the hat at clubhouses lookin for money to replace groomers?

The real truth of the whole excuse "I can't afford to buy the permit so I am quitting" is crap. The truth is, they can't afford the sport, the gas station doesn't care if u can afford gas, the dealer doesn't care if u can afford the sled, the only one they can bitch about is "the ofsc is gouging". The permit is the best deal in the whole sport. If they take more money off the snow by lowering the permit it will be the end, and it won't take long. How many of u have ever gone ditch bangin?

[bbakernbay]

Wildman is 100% Correct and I said the very same thing at the OFSC AGM.

It's a fatal combination of increasingly poor weather, higher than inflation gas prices, high motel costs and sleds approaching the cost of a new economy type car but can barely last 10,000 kms in too many cases.

$210 for a Trail Permit is peanuts in the total cost of owning and running a sled.

Nobody listens to anybody complain except the Clubs/OFSC.

I argued against giving away the Free Family Day Weekend, primarily because that is already our busiest weekend of the year, why invite others to try the trails for free when they are all beat up with the traffic and I don't believe in giving away something when others are paying.

Apparently it was a big success in Quebec and they sold some extra 3 day passes as a result. You will need to register on-line with VIN and provide your contact info and print your Family weekend Pass online. That's what Quebec didn't do and recommended to the OFSC that they should require for follow up sales, etc.

[bbakernbay]

See above....

That may be in Haliburton and other areas but it sure isn't the case around North Bay.

But I do agree with you that it is the Jeeps, 4WD's that are causing the major structural damage to the bridges and severe rutting on some of the trails.

Nevertheless, if they are going to require Val Tags for all snowmobiles, then the same should apply to ATV's.

Personally I think that this is political dynamite in the current minority government and no party uis going to alienate any interest group if they are smart.

We couldn't even get a $10 permit increase approved with an election looming.

[Fred Quimby]

That may be in Haliburton and other areas but it sure isn't the case around North Bay.

But I do agree with you that it is the Jeeps, 4WD's that are causing the major structural damage to the bridges and severe rutting on some of the trails.

Nevertheless, if they are going to require Val Tags for all snowmobiles, then the same should apply to ATV's.

Personally I think that this is political dynamite in the current minority government and no party uis going to alienate any interest group if they are smart.

We couldn't even get a $10 permit increase approved with an election looming.

I agree. Valtags should apply to ATVs as well and that is something that our club believes in too. It improves the responsibility factor and drives funds back into the programs. It's unfortunate that more areas are not organized as far as ATV clubs go. In Haliburton the catchment area is basically, Haliburton, Kawarthas, Madawaska, North Hastings, and over towards Muskoka, Peterborough, and Almaguin. A decent sized area under the HATVA umbrella and affiliate clubs. We are working with the Bracebridge area to overcome some issues.

It's sad that the jeepsters and 4wd operators are doing so much damage. While some are careful...many are not. We are not seeing too much from them out on the trails yet either. Hopefully that will improve.

[Panther340]

So Fred are you saying that the ATV clubs can't even attempt to control the yahoos on the shared trails ?

Because during the winter months it is the responsibility of the Snowmobile clubs to attempt to control the yahoos on the trails, whether it be the trails on landowner fields and yahoos destroying fields on trails not quite open yet.........or just policing the trail to make sure people have valid tags. Most Snowmobile clubs do a pretty good job of this up here.

Isn't it the responsibility of the ATV clubs to police the trails the same way? It is not the fault of the snowmobile clubs that their sport has much less a damaging footprint on the lands they use. The damage in summer to their trails (if they are shared with ATV clubs) must land directly on the ATV clubs. If the ATV club trailpass income to the club does not cover that, then shouldn't they increase the fees so they can police the trails more consistently ?

I just don't like the impression that ATV clubs get to wash their hands of the responsibility.

[Fred Quimby]

So Fred are you saying that the ATV clubs can't even attempt to control the yahoos on the shared trails ?

Because during the winter months it is the responsibility of the Snowmobile clubs to attempt to control the yahoos on the trails, whether it be the trails on landowner fields and yahoos destroying fields on trails not quite open yet.........or just policing the trail to make sure people have valid tags. Most Snowmobile clubs do a pretty good job of this up here.

Isn't it the responsibility of the ATV clubs to police the trails the same way? It is not the fault of the snowmobile clubs that their sport has much less a damaging footprint on the lands they use. The damage in summer to their trails (if they are shared with ATV clubs) must land directly on the ATV clubs. If the ATV club trailpass income to the club does not cover that, then shouldn't they increase the fees so they can police the trails more consistently ?

I just don't like the impression that ATV clubs get to wash their hands of the responsibility.

It absolutely is the responsibility of the ATV clubs and the OPP SAVE units to police the trails.I can't speak for North Bay or any other areas, but in Haliburton we do warden the trails, we do lay trespassing charges when trails are closed and the OPP SAVE team is out when they can be. They are also out on the water, and backing up drug enforcement units when they do grow op raids, so the time spent on ATVs is minimal. The problem is that you can't be everywhere there are idiots out riding irresponsibly. We have removed people from trails, laid trespassing charges, as well as come close to banning people from trails for inappropriate use. Still, the morons get through. The same with sledding. The guys who ride closed trails, venture off trail, through fields over Winter wheat...there is no difference. Both are irresponsible, dangerous and damaging riders. Both do damage to the sport, and both cause major headaches to the clubs to do damage control.

In the Haliburton area there are many trails that are also OFSC trails so..shared use. There are even more ATV only trails and there are trails that are not marked for either to use but many still ride them with ATVs. You legally can not stop somebody on an ATV from riding a MNR road regardless if it an ATV trail or not. What causes the problems are the OFSC trails that ATVs and jeepsters use when they are clearly marked as "closed". These are not shared trails, not multi use trails and are for OFSC use only. Our ATV maps show none of these trails for use for ATV traffic.

[Panther340]

Thanks for your update Fred . I do like that your ATV CLub does not show OFSC trails (not shared) on your maps. That is important distinction , and although it will not prevent locals , it will prevent ATV tourists from using them.

I think as more "sharing" of OFSC trails or local snow club trails with ATV trails occurs, this problem will only get bigger.

This because the footprint of damage ATV use makes is far more than Snow machine footprint. It would be very discouraging for Sled club volunteers to be fixing trails in late fall that were ruined by ATV's ........let alone the landowners that will now decide the don't want to give permission for sled's trails or ATV's because either trails draws local yahoos that don't respect the trails and work and costs. (I used to be one of those landowners giving permission, but sold my land since then)

I honestly think OFSC should discourage trail sharing .

[Viperules700]

Trail sharing works on crown land. The trail rutting Is a big issue though. The atv clubs should fix it in the fall.

[Fred Quimby]

Thanks for your update Fred . I do like that your ATV CLub does not show OFSC trails (not shared) on your maps. That is important distinction , and although it will not prevent locals , it will prevent ATV tourists from using them.

I think as more "sharing" of OFSC trails or local snow club trails with ATV trails occurs, this problem will only get bigger.

This because the footprint of damage ATV use makes is far more than Snow machine footprint. It would be very discouraging for Sled club volunteers to be fixing trails in late fall that were ruined by ATV's ........let alone the landowners that will now decide the don't want to give permission for sled's trails or ATV's because either trails draws local yahoos that don't respect the trails and work and costs. (I used to be one of those landowners giving permission, but sold my land since then)

I honestly think OFSC should discourage trail sharing .

The thing is that ATVs are becoming more and more popular all the time. They are outselling sleds in many areas now, including Haliburton, Like it or not shared trails will continue. MNR roads, access roads, bush roads, and rail lines are all common trails now, and yes..there are several more OFSC trails that HATVA has permits to use in the off season from sledding. That is one of the big reasons we are investing in trail improvements. To reduce rutting and erosion. We spend over 50K a year in various aggregates for local trails alone. The two local communities see the economic benefits to having ATVs being able to access the towns. Fuel, restaurants, shopping, accommodations, all mean inflow to the area, and in a tourism based economy such as Haliburton every dollar counts. I am a big proponent for the two clubs to work together as much as they can. They will both do better when they cooperate and understand each other. It's all dollars in.

[Canadoo]

I hate to jump all over you But..you are dead wrong in just about everything you said.

The ATV's that do the damage and the off roaders that rip up the trails on un-approved trails are the ones you need to go after. Not the ATV club and responsible riders.

HATVA is investing over 40 thousand in trail work on the B112 between Minden and Haliburton. Not all due to ATV damage but because of poor drainage, bad soil conditions that make it tough for not only ATV traffic but for grooming once the damn area freezes up. This project alone has involved over hundreds of hours of environmental assessments, wildlife reports, turtle studies, MNR approval, fisheries and oceans approval, not to mention engineers reports, private landowner approval, as well as endless meetings with council and then...the tender process for the work. SO..my suggestion is to really know what you are talking about before you bash ATVers and put all of us in the same bundle. Our club is frustrated with renegade ATVers and jeepsters too, plus these fools in the Suzuki sidekicks that seem very popular for off-roading. There are idiots that sled in areas that they shouldn't just the same as those that ATV where they shouldn't. Just so you know..it was the off roaders that wrecked two bridges..one being the Anson creek bridge. Not ATV traffic. I have personally seen these fools line these jeeps and Suzuki sidekicks up end to end while travelling over bridges..by far exceeding the weight limits and damaging the structure underneath.

HATVA has also invested over 15K in trail work for the Haliburton Rail line. Repairing wash outs, bridges,grading, trash removal, calcium application, brushing, signage, drainage culverts and the list goes on.

By the way HATVA also insures all ATV trails the same way the OFSC does..there is a cost to that. We also have signed land use permits so there is no trespassing either. Your quote of $95.00 is also wrong. The annual single pass is $110.00.

We cover 1500+km's of signed, mapped and insured trails.

Please educate yourself before you speak about which you know little. Hope I was able to share some knowledge. PM me if you seek further clarification on what HATVA does.

Maybe you need to take a deep breathe, relax and read before jumping all over something you obviously have an immense bias towards.

The only thing I was "dead wrong" about was the $110 vs $95 permit. It used to be $95.

You posted a total of $55,000 that the club has invested in trails. I never suggested they didnt invest $1, did I?

55k is a drop in the bucket compared to what sledders have paid so ANY atv can ride on the shared trails. To suggest that this somehow makes everything sledders have done for 50 years in the area is simply arrogant and misleading. They need to do more, on top of every dime heyve put up so far. Thats what I said.

In terms o "who to go after" I neer suggeted to "go after" anyone. Not to mention youre dead wrong about so called "responsible" riders arent a problem. Sir, an ATV is an ATV, as much as someone can tread lightly yiure still going to dig up a trail. Its an undisputable fact, you obviously are uncomfortable with to get you back up so significantly.

Again, never insinuated anything hat youre referring to, eg never help, never spend a dollar. I attached my quote below for your future reference...

I could go on and on, but I'll save it for when you retort wih another degrading high-horse comment.

oh its certainly teh case for Haliburton area when you consider the damage ATVs cause to the trails. Yes they have come and helped out on many occasions, but they do far more damage then they help to reverse. Not $1 of their $95 (I believe) permit goes to the trails outside of a few bridges they may have built for themselves...

there is no question ATVers need to do a lot more for shared trail maintenance. Not to mention the fact that most ATVers aren't members of any organization and the trails were built by the snowmobile clubs decades ago.

[Fred Quimby]

Trail sharing works on crown land. The trail rutting Is a big issue though. The atv clubs should fix it in the fall.

ATV clubs should not be responsible for rutting etc.. caused on trails that are not designated as ATV trails or shared trails. That is somewhat cost prohibitive. HATVA as I mentioned each year spends 50K on aggregate, grading, culverts and trail improvements that benefit both ATV and snowmobile clubs. With less money coming into snowmobile clubs in this area due to poor Winters and lower permit sales, there will be less money for snowmobile clubs to do much of anything this year. The B112 is a great example of this. With 40K in work being done as we speak, this will improve the width, drainage and condition of this link between Minden and Haliburton.

If an ATV rider chooses to ride on non prescribed ATV trails or sections of trail that are off limits to ATV traffic it is unfair to expect the ATV club to pay for that damage. We do warden, and patrol our trail system, check for passes, issue trespassing fines, all where required. With 1500+Km's of ATV trails it is hard to be everywhere all the time.

The big offenders are the guys who jump on OFSC trails to access their own hunt camps! This is all Summer (for fishing) and certainly all Fall long. Usually these are OFSC trails and not ATV designated trails but..how do you stop them? Then the off roaders do a considerable amount of damage too. Again, not on prescribed ATV club trails. That is why the QE2 park was closed for so long. Renegade off roaders wrecked trails, bridges and access points all through there! It ruined it for sledders. It was not the ATVers.

I live here and can tell you the off-roaders do a lot of damage when they rip through a trail. When 15 jeeps with huge mudders fly down a trail..how much damage do you think that does to turf? Tons. They stress bridges, drive over small trees, rip down signs, and leave a wake of rubbish on the trails. Its a huge problem.

[Fred Quimby]

Maybe you need to take a deep breathe, relax and read before jumping all over something you obviously have an immense bias towards. Not biased..I am heavily involved with both local clubs!

The only thing I was "dead wrong" about was the $110 vs $95 permit. It used to be $95. Yes..several years ago it was.

You posted a total of $55,000 that the club has invested in trails. I never suggested they didnt invest $1, did I? Ummm yes.. ""Not $1 of their $95 (I believe) permit goes to the trails outside of a few bridges they may have built for themselves..." What did you mean when you made that statement? To anybody reading it, you said that the club is not spending $1 of their $95 on trails....

Perhaps you forgot what you said?

.

55k is a drop in the bucket compared to what sledders have paid so ANY atv can ride on the shared trails. To suggest that this somehow makes everything sledders have done for 50 years in the area is simply arrogant and misleading. They need to do more, on top of every dime heyve put up so far. Thats what I said. That is not what you said..read your own quote!! HATVA has not ben around for 50 years neither has the snowmobile clubs..however HATVA does annually spend over 55K on trail work and improvements! ANNUALLY. Plus they continue to do so. Plus raise money for the community, donate time to the community. Remember, organized ATVing is still in it's infancy. The sport is growing, HUGE, and so is the organizational end of it. It is not fair to compare them to a snowmobile club that has been in existence for 40 years as the HCSA has. ATV's were barely in existence 40 years ago.

In terms o "who to go after" I neer suggeted to "go after" anyone. Not to mention youre dead wrong about so called "responsible" riders arent a problem. Sir, an ATV is an ATV, as much as someone can tread lightly yiure still going to dig up a trail. Its an undisputable fact, you obviously are uncomfortable with to get you back up so significantly.I get my back up because you have your story twisted and are inaccurate in your information. You are attacking and generalizing all ATV riders as wreckless or "digging up" trails. In fact, it is quite possible to ride responsibly and not rip the $h!t out of a trail if you know how to ride and have some brains.

Again, never insinuated anything hat youre referring to, eg never help, never spend a dollar. I attached my quote below for your future reference...

I could go on and on, but I'll save it for when you retort wih another degrading high-horse comment. So here is my "high horse" comment..nothing but the truth. You stated that our permit money does not go into the trails, when it does. You generalized ATVs as all wrecking trails, which they don't. You fail to see that the average ATV rider rides responsibly on ATV trails during prescribed times, which IS the norm, You seem not to understand that the problem lies with those that have disregard for closed or non ATV trails or private land.

The majority of the "shared" trails fall under one of the following categories - MNR roads (not owned by OFSC or ATV club)/ forest management unit access roads/ private tract- property (Rail trail as an example is owned by Haliburton County, not OFSC or any club)/ completely private property - where HATVA obtains it's own LUP and insures the landowner/ or crown land that had trails cut through by logging companies eons ago. There seldom exists an ATV trail that has infringed on a sole proprietorship club trail, that a club built themselves. The majority of ATV trails exist on a trail network mentioned above, or on trails developed by the ATV club, or opened up after being abandoned by a logging company (in many cases) or other resource. When townships were laid out concessions were designed with "right-of-ways" on each concession or road allowances as commonly known. ATV clubs..HATVA for one are taking advantage of using this crown land and cleaning up those allowances for trails. Few are aware of this fact.

Here is another tidbit for you...if it weren't for the pressure the ATV club put on Dysart..and the County, they likely would have pulled the plug on any motorized sports on the rail trail! It was very close to being turned into a giant greenbelt for walkers and bird watchers etc. So...another huge project the ATV club undertook and was successful in. That's another example of where the dollars go. Not to mention HATVA has over 400 members through it's affiliate clubs, so your comment that most ATVers don't belong to an organization is quite unsubstantiated.

Canadoo..maybe it is you that has your back up because I called you out on your comment? Substantiated my retort with hard facts?

[02Sled]

Wildman is 100% Correct and I said the very same thing at the OFSC AGM.

It's a fatal combination of increasingly poor weather, higher than inflation gas prices, high motel costs and sleds approaching the cost of a new economy type car but can barely last 10,000 kms in too many cases.

$210 for a Trail Permit is peanuts in the total cost of owning and running a sled.

Nobody listens to anybody complain except the Clubs/OFSC.

I argued against giving away the Free Family Day Weekend, primarily because that is already our busiest weekend of the year, why invite others to try the trails for free when they are all beat up with the traffic and I don't believe in giving away something when others are paying.

Apparently it was a big success in Quebec and they sold some extra 3 day passes as a result. You will need to register on-line with VIN and provide your contact info and print your Family weekend Pass online. That's what Quebec didn't do and recommended to the OFSC that they should require for follow up sales, etc.

I agree particularly with the bolded text above. I have stayed in some fairly nice places in the GTA for in around $100 a night (corp rate) Really all you have to do is ask for it. Then I have stayed in some flea bag hotels where I slept in my clothes and was afraid to take a shower and they charge $120 in rural Ontario.

You mention follow up sales. We have a problem getting some clubs to follow up with people who want to volunteer let alone push sales

[FreezerBurnt]

I do not see how anyone can NOT see the damage ATVs do to the trails be it private or public land

Kudos to those that have organized but you are but a small fraction

[Nith Valley Sledder]

I think once you get up into the Haliburton area you will find a lot of the atv riders are also snowmobile riders. They tend to ride the area with the district snowmobile maps in their pockets or the OFSC gps tracks loaded on their machines. It is virtually impossible to keep them off of the sled trails as they are on crown land. There is a select few atv riders that go out with machines modified for mudding and they tend to do a lot of damage with little concern for what they are doing. On the other hand there are a lot of responsible riders that help pick up garbage and ride with chainsaws so they can clear trails when required. After some of the storms these riders have done a hell of a lot of work to make the trails passable for all.

[steve c]

I agree with Fred 100%. I have been snowmobiling for about 15 years now. I usually figure that if I can get out snowmobiling for three months (January to March) that is a good year. The amount of mileage I have been getting has been dropping year after year and last year (which was by far the worst since I have been snowmobiling) I only managed to get out for one week and put on about 560 miles. Unfortunately, with the winters we have been getting the last few years, the trails in southern ontario, usually take a long time to open, if they open at all, so we end up going north to sled, which gets on the expensive side.

I also agree that if snowmobile and atv clubs are able to combine, there would be a lot more resources for trail/bridge maintenance, as I would suspect that the atv permits will be increasing in future years and as everyone has been saying, the snowmobiling permits are decreasing.

I have never owned an atv, but I would guess that your season would last almost 7 months (May to November), which is considerably longer than snowmobiling. Also, atv trails are not dependent on weather for them to open up, so your season will always be around 7 months. The reason I have not gotten an atv is because of the lack of trails, but they are starting to get more and more of them around. The price of atv's also seem to be a lot less than snowmobiles, new atv's seem to run between $8,500 to $10,000 as compared to snowmobiles being in the $10,000 to $16,000 range.

When my current snowmobile dies, unless something drastic changes with our current economy and weather, I will probably switch over to an atv. Also, if the atv clubs are able to get more trails opened up around southern ontario, I would probably switch even sooner. I hate to say it but I personally think the state of snowmobiling in ontario is going to get worse in the next few years.

[Fred Quimby]

I think once you get up into the Haliburton area you will find a lot of the atv riders are also snowmobile riders. They tend to ride the area with the district snowmobile maps in their pockets or the OFSC gps tracks loaded on their machines. It is virtually impossible to keep them off of the sled trails as they are on crown land. There is a select few atv riders that go out with machines modified for mudding and they tend to do a lot of damage with little concern for what they are doing. On the other hand there are a lot of responsible riders that help pick up garbage and ride with chainsaws so they can clear trails when required. After some of the storms these riders have done a hell of a lot of work to make the trails passable for all.

There is some truth to ATV traffic on crown land. However. The HCSA also locks gates on closed private land trails and has spent a lot of money doing such. Yes, there are a select few who have ill regard for doing damage, as there is in the sport of sledding too. Bad apples in both baskets. A lotof guys ride into hunt camps a lot too. doing a majority of repairs and partying in there during the Summer. Many are on OFSC trails or just off them.

If anybody is familiar with the 5 points system of trails in the Crystal lake area towards Gooderham..you can or might remember the tornado damage that happened there last Summer. The Kawartha, Haliburton ATV club along with the Kawartha snowmobile club did many days of major work to open up that whole system of trails in there. Even going to the expense of paying for heavy equipment to come in to remove trees. Some chainsaw crews worked for four to five hours and only progressed twenty feet! It was that bad..so there was a good example of the good work the two powersports clubs can do and do on a regular basis.