Manitoba considers mandatory permit

[revrnd]

2 hours ago, Yukon Cornelious said:

This is what the try our trails program was used for , to collect Stats for sleds in Ontario that were registered but did not buy OFSC trail permits. Cross reference vin numbers with pure data from the snowmobile community. We needed several years to collect that data,this is why it took so long for the program to end/scrapped..

Gotcha. Two years don't make a trend.

[manotickmike]

4 hours ago, bbakernbay said:

They do enforce compliance but just like the highways there is absolutely zero likelihood of charging every operator who commits an infraction of the MVA or the MSVA.

Maybe it's different in Kitchener.

3 years riding here, haven't seen a sign of it. I did speak to a couple of officers once filling my truck at a gas station. Their patrol went from Renfrew to Cornwall. I suspect they were referring to all of district 1.

2 sleds, one patrol. 

Is there a way to verify this? It seems absurd.

 

 

[Panther340]

14 hours ago, Yukon Cornelious said:

This is what the try our trails program was used for , to collect Stats for sleds in Ontario that were registered but did not buy OFSC trail permits. Cross reference vin numbers with pure data from the snowmobile community. We needed several years to collect that data,this is why it took so long for the program to end/scrapped..

Yukon ? Are you saying that it was a data collecting program that was scrapped because it was realized it was useless data ? Because I don't see how that data would be able to  be extrapolated to " total registered sleds".  Maybe it would reflect southern ontario sled numbers given limited trails.....but even there it still would miss the many rural and farm use sleds......and of course it would totally be inaccurate for Northern Ontario and all the crown and private land use not on Ofsc trails.  Thoughts ? 

[02Sled]

34 minutes ago, Panther340 said:

Yukon ? Are you saying that it was a data collecting program that was scrapped because it was realized it was useless data ? Because I don't see how that data would be able to  be extrapolated to " total registered sleds".  Maybe it would reflect southern ontario sled numbers given limited trails.....but even there it still would miss the many rural and farm use sleds......and of course it would totally be inaccurate for Northern Ontario and all the crown and private land use not on Ofsc trails.  Thoughts ? 

The numbers should be easily obtained without a try our trails program. The OFSC would be able to reconcile to the last permit how many are sold year over year. The VIN number should be irrelevant to the total quantities. The MTO would be able to nail down the number of licensed sleds without any effort either. It would be a few short key strokes to extract from either database. The only variable to account for is that the MTO tags are renewed on the owners birthday. Given the birthdays don't change it would be logical to look at all sleds registered between Jan 1 and Dec 31 for the calendar year.

[sledjunk]

42 minutes ago, Panther340 said:

Yukon ? Are you saying that it was a data collecting program that was scrapped because it was realized it was useless data ? Because I don't see how that data would be able to  be extrapolated to " total registered sleds".  Maybe it would reflect southern ontario sled numbers given limited trails.....but even there it still would miss the many rural and farm use sleds......and of course it would totally be inaccurate for Northern Ontario and all the crown and private land use not on Ofsc trails.  Thoughts ? 

What I think Yukon is referring to is the data to extrapolate the number of sleds that would / could use the trails.  This number would exclude the people who 'never' ride an OFSC trail.  It will get us closer, but I still believe there is a large number who do not buy a permit but still use the trails, especially in Northern Ontario, because of the lack of enforcement and repercussions.

[02Sled]

37 minutes ago, sledjunk said:

What I think Yukon is referring to is the data to extrapolate the number of sleds that would / could use the trails.  This number would exclude the people who 'never' ride an OFSC trail.  It will get us closer, but I still believe there is a large number who do not buy a permit but still use the trails, especially in Northern Ontario, because of the lack of enforcement and repercussions.

I believe you will find there are a lot in the more southern areas as well that ride without a permit. They would tend to be locals who ride after work in the evenings when they know there isn't anyone out checking for permits, licenses or insurance. I know of a couple that do exactly that. They just don't ride weekends.

[Strong Farmer]

On 12/23/2019 at 10:09 AM, Guy JR said:

I cant understand how people think owning a snowmobile should equal helping subsidize a trail system for the wealthy  so the wealthy can enjoy their expensive sport that most people will never get a chance to enjoy.  I personally know more people with sleds that do not trail ride than do trail ride.  

It is mostly middle class that own snowmobiles, not wealthy. Also snowmobile puts way more back into economy then what is given back to sport. Government subsidizes lots of things that never even turn a profit. Ilt in Kitchener is a prime example of that. We all pay for it but only a select few mostly seniors and students and low income people use it now. 

Edited December 24, 2019 by Strong Farmer

[Panther340]

1 hour ago, 02Sled said:

The numbers should be easily obtained without a try our trails program. The OFSC would be able to reconcile to the last permit how many are sold year over year. The VIN number should be irrelevant to the total quantities. The MTO would be able to nail down the number of licensed sleds without any effort either. It would be a few short key strokes to extract from either database. The only variable to account for is that the MTO tags are renewed on the owners birthday. Given the birthdays don't change it would be logical to look at all sleds registered between Jan 1 and Dec 31 for the calendar year.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/420703/canadian-snowmobile-registrations-by-province/     So then 02sled then that must be what this statistic site did. 

[Yukon]

2 hours ago, Panther340 said:

Yukon ? Are you saying that it was a data collecting program that was scrapped because it was realized it was useless data ? Because I don't see how that data would be able to  be extrapolated to " total registered sleds".  Maybe it would reflect southern ontario sled numbers given limited trails.....but even there it still would miss the many rural and farm use sleds......and of course it would totally be inaccurate for Northern Ontario and all the crown and private land use not on Ofsc trails.  Thoughts ? 

Try our trails was not just for data collection, it was a way to get people back on the snow. But it was also used for data collection, over a number of years.  

 

Of course it may not be fully accurate, but as Sledjunk said it gets us closer to a number.

2 hours ago, 02Sled said:

The numbers should be easily obtained without a try our trails program. The OFSC would be able to reconcile to the last permit how many are sold year over year. The VIN number should be irrelevant to the total quantities. The MTO would be able to nail down the number of licensed sleds without any effort either. It would be a few short key strokes to extract from either database. The only variable to account for is that the MTO tags are renewed on the owners birthday. Given the birthdays don't change it would be logical to look at all sleds registered between Jan 1 and Dec 31 for the calendar year.

Sounds good in theory. 

 

But the MTO are not permitted to give away this information. 

 

This is why there was a requirement to input the vin#s when registering for a no cost try our trails permit.

[Strong Farmer]

So anyone know any permit numbers for this season so far. Are sales above 50,000 to date on full season permits? 

[soupkids]

30 minutes ago, Strong Farmer said:

So anyone know any permit numbers for this season so far. Are sales above 50,000 to date on full season permits? 

I believe they where above at the Dec 1st deadline.

[Ox]

On 12/21/2019 at 11:32 AM, 02Sled said:

You're right we have been down this road before but there are countless examples of people paying for things they don't use. Provincial parks are not self sufficient and camping for the user is subsidized. I don't use public swimming pools, libraries, ice rinks and so much more. The Trent Severn Waterway and Rideau Canal is subsidized by people who will never use it. Game wardens are subsidized by people who don't hunt or fish.

 

Not to pick on you 02, as many have the same feelings ....

 

But that post screams of "I like big Government, and since I had to pony up for something that I don't use, I want someone now to pony up for something that they don't use" mentality.

 

What that ends up as is more taxes (fees?) are levied for more things that are not needed, all b/c "I want mine too".

 

 

Tell me, can you now list as many things that ARE publicly funded that you DOO use?

Like - say Crown Land?

Public waters?

 

I bet that you can if you wanted to.

 

Trust me - I'm sorta on the same page, but ... I'm on the back side of the page....

I'm more other things NOT being funded, rather than "mine too".

 

It's kind'a the same - except it's now MY (your) money that we're spending, rather than someone else's that we may spend a lot easier.

 

 

.

 

[revrnd]

36 minutes ago, Ox said:

 

Not to pick on you 02, as many have the same feelings ....

 

But that post screams of "I like big Government, and since I had to pony up for something that I don't use, I want someone now to pony up for something that they don't use" mentality.

 

What that ends up as is more taxes (fees?) are levied for more things that are not needed, all b/c "I want mine too".

 

 

Tell me, can you now list as many things that ARE publicly funded that you DOO use?

Like - say Crown Land?

Public waters?

 

I bet that you can if you wanted to.

 

Trust me - I'm sorta on the same page, but ... I'm on the back side of the page....

I'm more other things NOT being funded, rather than "mine too".

 

It's kind'a the same - except it's now MY (your) money that we're spending, rather than someone else's that we may spend a lot easier.

 

 

.

 

Heck I know people that say "I never drive on that street, so why should they fix it?"  

[Sksman]

On 12/23/2019 at 6:54 PM, 02Sled said:

Do you have a boat? Do you use either the Trent system or the Rideau? You heavily subsidize the operation of those although many boat owners will never use it and it is very widely used by people who can afford boats worth $100K and much more.

How many boats buy lock passes yearly?

I would bet the number is in decline.

 I watch from our cottage over the years and notice a huge drop in boats travelling the system East of Simcoe on the Trent Marinas have closed.

 

Kinda like sledding numbers will be in decline.

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2019 by Sksman
Missed words

[gtserider]

1 hour ago, Sksman said:

How many boats buy lock passes yearly?

I would bet the number is in decline.

 I watch from our cottage over the years and notice a huge drop in boats travelling the system East of

Marinas have closed.

 

Kinda like sledding numbers will be in decline.

 

 

 

Actually there is shortage of Marinas in Ontario.The ones that are closing are due to external pressures that are mostly caused by regulations from the various governments.Try to find a slip in some parts of the province and you'll find yourself on a waiting list.Your antidotal   evidence of boats traveling might be correct,fuel prices and peoples time has limited the scope in which they travel.The 3 major dock builders in my area are always busy as are the people that build storage sheds.No decline here.

[Sksman]

10 hours ago, gtserider said:

Actually there is shortage of Marinas in Ontario.The ones that are closing are due to external pressures that are mostly caused by regulations from the various governments.Try to find a slip in some parts of the province and you'll find yourself on a waiting list.Your antidotal   evidence of boats traveling might be correct,fuel prices and peoples time has limited the scope in which they travel.The 3 major dock builders in my area are always busy as are the people that build storage sheds.No decline here.

Could be busier on Severn side.  I have edited my post previous as we are on Trent side east of Simcoe.  No where near the boats going through on a long weekend.

 

 

 

 

[zoso]

On 12/24/2019 at 11:32 AM, Yukon Cornelious said:

Try our trails was not just for data collection, it was a way to get people back on the snow. But it was also used for data collection, over a number of years.  

 

Of course it may not be fully accurate, but as Sledjunk said it gets us closer to a number.

Sounds good in theory. 

 

But the MTO are not permitted to give away this information. 

 

This is why there was a requirement to input the vin#s when registering for a no cost try our trails permit.

Not true, MTO can and does say how many sled are registered.

[Strong Farmer]

5 hours ago, zoso said:

Not true, MTO can and does say how many sled are registered.

What do you think number is in ontario. I have heard any where from 130 ish to 320,000 sleds registered in ontario. I personally thought It was around 180,000 lately but not sure and permits are below 80 for sure, but no real numbers coming from ofsc lately either. 

[Panther340]

Check the link I provided earlier on this topic page. 

[Sksman]

11 hours ago, Panther340 said:

Check the link I provided earlier on this topic page. 

Interesting that in the link it shows only 155,000 registered in Ontario.  Lower then anticipated by many.  

The source of this number is International Snowmobile Manufacturers.  I wonder if this number is same as MTO registrations or is an estimate by manufacturers association?

 

 

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

2 hours ago, Sksman said:

Interesting that in the link it shows only 155,000 registered in Ontario.  Lower then anticipated by many.  

The source of this number is International Snowmobile Manufacturers.  I wonder if this number is same as MTO registrations or is an estimate by manufacturers association?

 

 

If it is 155,000 registered in Ontario then it will be MTO registrations. I believe the sled manufacturers would have gotten registered new sled numbers and make from the MTO (same as car/commercial truck manufacturers) so that they know how they are doing market % wise versus other manufacturers. 

I wonder how many people turn in their ownerships to the MTO when they dismantle or park an old sled in the back 40?  

The current yearly valtag sales numbers would be a whole different story.

 

 

[02Sled]

On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 11:32 AM, Yukon Cornelious said:

Try our trails was not just for data collection, it was a way to get people back on the snow. But it was also used for data collection, over a number of years.  

 

Of course it may not be fully accurate, but as Sledjunk said it gets us closer to a number.

Sounds good in theory. 

 

But the MTO are not permitted to give away this information. 

 

This is why there was a requirement to input the vin#s when registering for a no cost try our trails permit.

I understand they can't provide personal information on the person but why can they not give total numbers of registered sleds? Nothing confidential about it. They reveal statistical information all the time. StatsCan and provincial websites provide this kind of information all the time. StatsCan has the number of motor vehicles registered by province. Same Ministry.

[02Sled]

On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 4:38 PM, Ox said:

 

Not to pick on you 02, as many have the same feelings ....

 

But that post screams of "I like big Government, and since I had to pony up for something that I don't use, I want someone now to pony up for something that they don't use" mentality.

 

What that ends up as is more taxes (fees?) are levied for more things that are not needed, all b/c "I want mine too".

 

 

Tell me, can you now list as many things that ARE publicly funded that you DOO use?

Like - say Crown Land?

Public waters?

 

I bet that you can if you wanted to.

 

Trust me - I'm sorta on the same page, but ... I'm on the back side of the page....

I'm more other things NOT being funded, rather than "mine too".

 

It's kind'a the same - except it's now MY (your) money that we're spending, rather than someone else's that we may spend a lot easier.

 

 

.

 

I myself prefer a user pay system rather than all the enormously subsidized or fully costed things I don't and never will use. If I wasn't paying for all the things I will never use I would have a lot more money available for those I do use. That's not likely to happen though. I am just looking at those who say why should I pay for a trail system that I don't use and pointing out the list is endless of things you already do pay for but don't use. TTC cash fare is $3.25 to get anywhere the system takes you which is virtually anywhere in Toronto. In 2014 every trip on the TTC was subsidized by about $0.80. With inflation lets say that subsidy would be $1.00 per trip on the TTC. I wouldn't have a problem paying $4.25. Think about how far you can travel in your vehicle for $4.25. CRA allows $0.55 / km for operating a vehicle. That $4.25 would get you just under 8 km in your vehicle.

 

 I know of a municipally maintained road in cottage country, that runs about 6 or 7 km in off the main road. As you drive down it you don't pass a single cottage or residence. When you get to the end there are a total of 3 cottages. Everyone in the municipality pays to maintain that road but I doubt anyone will ever use it other than those 3 families and their guests.

 

I accept that I will subsidize lots of things I will never use and that's the way it is.

[revrnd]

5 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

If it is 155,000 registered in Ontario then it will be MTO registrations. I believe the sled manufacturers would have gotten registered new sled numbers and make from the MTO (same as car/commercial truck manufacturers) so that they know how they are doing market % wise versus other manufacturers. 

I wonder how many people turn in their ownerships to the MTO when they dismantle or park an old sled in the back 40?  

The current yearly valtag sales numbers would be a whole different story.

 

 

 

I mentioned that when the registration numbers were being discussed years ago. I wonder what would come up for my Elan? I haven't bought a val tag for it in years, but still have the ownership for it. When I get my renewal each year, it's not listed as 1 of the vehicles that I own.

 

 

Looking @ the chart, I wonder how many permits does the FCMQ sell?

 

I've posted the question on a trapping page on Faceplant to ask how many licenced trappers there are in Ontario. For conversation sake those numbers could be eliminated as permit buyers.