MY BIG RANT!!!! it's time I speak up... We need new groomers

[02Sled]

Ill bet anything that Dubreuilville doesn't get one, if only to piss in Lucs' face, because he says what needs to be said ... I know that feeling. I don't kiss anyone's a$$ either and regret very little of it.

 

Tell us how you really feel.  Actually that is one of the things I like about Luc. He tells it like he sees it.

 

There are times however to not speak your mind, like when your wife says do these pants make my butt look big? There is no safe answer.

[Greggie]

Ill bet anything that Dubreuilville doesn't get one, if only to piss in Lucs' face, because he says what needs to be said ... I know that feeling. I don't kiss anyone's a$$ either and regret very little of it.

 

If Dubreuilville needs a new groomer, they have a 2002 and 2003 Ford groomer with both less then 4000 hours, there are clubs with average way older groomers with higher hours. The average of all groomers in District 13 is 2002, there are 3 districts with average older groomers. The oldest is District 17 average 1998. So do we need to replace all groomers in District 13? There are lots of old groomers who do a great job and are way cheaper to operate and maintain then a new groomer. I don't know in what shape Luc's groomers are but a Ford tractor can do easy 10,000 hours. 

Thanks,

Greg

[02Sled]

I don't know but often wonder about what defines worn out on a groomer. When you look at the fact they are diesel engines which tend to last a very long time and look at the age of some of the farm tractors many farmers are using and still consider viable for everyday use and making their living off of it makes one curious. I have a few friends that are farmers and not wealthy, They tell me they go to the farm show each year to look at the tractors they will be using 15 years from now when they buy them used.

[FreezerBurnt]

I don't know but often wonder about what defines worn out on a groomer. When you look at the fact they are diesel engines which tend to last a very long time and look at the age of some of the farm tractors many farmers are using and still consider viable for everyday use and making their living off of it makes one curious. I have a few friends that are farmers and not wealthy, They tell me they go to the farm show each year to look at the tractors they will be using 15 years from now when they buy them used.

 

 

tractor working field in warm weather vs a tractor work in -30s in winter is a different ball game

[Greggie]

tractor working field in warm weather vs a tractor work in -30s in winter is a different ball game

It can have some impact but not that much. Look at ski hill groomers, they get replaced average 12,000 hours or more.

Thanks

Greg

[Greggie]

Did you guys know that the 2017 Husky with a new drag cost $310,000 tax included? So the amorisation of the first year is about $60,000? How much repairs can you have for $60,000??

Thanks

Greg

[02Sled]

tractor working field in warm weather vs a tractor work in -30s in winter is a different ball game

 

I agree the colder temps will have an impact on engine wear for cold weather starting but not that much really. They tend to be plugged in and parked in a drive shed. A lot of the farmers use their tractors year round. Not so much cash crop but those with livestock will. My one farmer friend has his running every day year round. Taking round bales to the field for the cattle, cleaning the loafing shed with the loader bucket, blowing snow, things like that and more.

 

Or think about the other diesel powered equipment like that used in construction. If the equipment is worn out engine wise after 5000 hours that is only 2.5 years of a full time job. Maybe factor in that our groomers sit idle for such a large portion of the year could have an impact. Likely better to keep using it rather than let it sit idle.

[skidooboy]

It can have some impact but not that much. Look at ski hill groomers, they get replaced average 12,000 hours or more.

Thanks

Greg

 

and if it breaks down, you haul it a few hundred meters to the ski hill garage. up here in Algoma country... you might be 100 kms or more from ANY FORM OF COMMUNICATION, OR CIVILIZATION. now who needs a better, maintained, and or newer unit??? who's life is worth more? someone who can walk to warmth, or someone who might have to wait over night, or several days, before they see another human being.

 

again, we know you hate MOS, we get it. BUT, YOU SKEW THE NUMBERS TO REPRESENT YOURSELF, YOUR CLUB, AND YOUR DISTRICT, AS THE MOST IMPORTANT PIECE OF THE OFSC PUZZLE. you also, downplay other areas and regions problems, as not as important as yours. again, we get it... YOU ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVERYONE ELSE. 

 

it is a BIG PROVINCE, getting everyone what they need to get the job done, is not easy. each situation warrants concerns, and decisions based on the needs of each individual situation.

 

bringing a problem to light, is each individuals right and responsibility, as a good steward to our provincial trail system, and economic platform.  

 

instead of downplaying another regions concerns, that you have never witnessed first hand, their struggles, why not try to come up with solutions, ideas, to help the best way you can. I liken this to hunters, trappers, fisherman ect... infighting and dividing themselves, and losing ground to anti-hunters, and pro land closure groups. united we stand, divided we WILL FALL!  Ski 

[Greggie]

and if it breaks down, you haul it a few hundred meters to the ski hill garage. up here in Algoma country... you might be 100 kms or more from ANY FORM OF COMMUNICATION, OR CIVILIZATION. now who needs a better, maintained, and or newer unit??? who's life is worth more? someone who can walk to warmth, or someone who might have to wait over night, or several days, before they see another human being.

again, we know you hate MOS, we get it. BUT, YOU SKEW THE NUMBERS TO REPRESENT YOURSELF, YOUR CLUB, AND YOUR DISTRICT, AS THE MOST IMPORTANT PIECE OF THE OFSC PUZZLE. you also, downplay other areas and regions problems, as not as important as yours. again, we get it... YOU ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVERYONE ELSE.

it is a BIG PROVINCE, getting everyone what they need to get the job done, is not easy. each situation warrants concerns, and decisions based on the needs of each individual situation.

bringing a problem to light, is each individuals right and responsibility, as a good steward to our provincial trail system, and economic platform.

instead of downplaying another regions concerns, that you have never witnessed first hand, their struggles, why not try to come up with solutions, ideas, to help the best way you can. I liken this to hunters, trappers, fisherman ect... infighting and dividing themselves, and losing ground to anti-hunters, and pro land closure groups. united we stand, divided we WILL FALL! Ski

Ski,

Have groomed for 10+ years and I know about grooming with old and new groomers. Funny part, you are telling me I skew numbers? I don't support one club or District, I support snowmobiling in Ontario. I think that you do t see the whole puzzle what snowmobiling in Ontario is. I am important, you are wrong. I try to help snowmobiling and I think that I have a petty good view where we are going....

There are tons of groomers who can or need to be replaced but don't expect that a new groomer is everything. Have seen it, a brand new Pisten Bully leaking hydraulic oil 3-4 times in one year of grooming....

Thanks

Greg

[Viperules700]

Ill bet anything that Dubreuilville doesn't get one, if only to piss in Lucs' face, because he says what needs to be said ... I know that feeling. I don't kiss anyone's a$$ either and regret very

little of it.

Be nice to get one there some how, because they are going to start to receive thru traffic again.

[Blizzard]

guys we would all like to have new groomers but not viable it has to do with preseason check and maintenance by qualified mechanics. even new groomers after a couple of

years will be unreliable if not properly maintained. a lot of farmers have their equipment thoroughly checked over in winter by factory trained mechanics who find small problems to be fixed before they turn into major down time. volunteers do what they can but not enough knowledge to spot future trouble like a trained eye can. if the ofsc spent half the groomer fund money on professional maintenance and repair how many more very reliable groomers would be on the snow today. Just think how many mechanic hours and parts would be paid with $ 300,000

[Wildbill]

and if it breaks down, you haul it a few hundred meters to the ski hill garage. up here in Algoma country... you might be 100 kms or more from ANY FORM OF COMMUNICATION, OR CIVILIZATION. now who needs a better, maintained, and or newer unit??? who's life is worth more? someone who can walk to warmth, or someone who might have to wait over night, or several days, before they see another human being.

 

again, we know you hate MOS, we get it. BUT, YOU SKEW THE NUMBERS TO REPRESENT YOURSELF, YOUR CLUB, AND YOUR DISTRICT, AS THE MOST IMPORTANT PIECE OF THE OFSC PUZZLE. you also, downplay other areas and regions problems, as not as important as yours. again, we get it... YOU ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVERYONE ELSE. 

 

it is a BIG PROVINCE, getting everyone what they need to get the job done, is not easy. each situation warrants concerns, and decisions based on the needs of each individual situation.

 

bringing a problem to light, is each individuals right and responsibility, as a good steward to our provincial trail system, and economic platform.  

 

instead of downplaying another regions concerns, that you have never witnessed first hand, their struggles, why not try to come up with solutions, ideas, to help the best way you can. I liken this to hunters, trappers, fisherman ect... infighting and dividing themselves, and losing ground to anti-hunters, and pro land closure groups. united we stand, divided we WILL FALL!  Ski 

the new ones break too. 

[The Groomer Guy]

guys we would all like to have new groomers but not viable it has to do with preseason check and maintenance by qualified mechanics. even new groomers after a couple of

years will be unreliable if not properly maintained. a lot of farmers have their equipment thoroughly checked over in winter by factory trained mechanics who find small problems to be fixed before they turn into major down time. volunteers do what they can but not enough knowledge to spot future trouble like a trained eye can. if the ofsc spent half the groomer fund money on professional maintenance and repair how many more very reliable groomers would be on the snow today. Just think how many mechanic hours and parts would be paid with $ 300,000

Well Said Blizzad. Thank you for saying it.

I'm the first to stand up in my District meetings and to say that there is no reason for groomers not to last more then 5000 hours and that a well maintained machine can run a long time with proper maintenance. I even stood up at a OFSC Convention and said it too. I also admit to the whole room if our machine had had the proper work done, repairs it would still be good. I told them when a club ends up only having about 2 active members for 2 to 3 years doing everything from A to Z there is for sure something that will be over looked or just patched for now to keep things going. Out here we can not just make a phone call to the ford dealer or Ebert to come up and do repairs. Ebert is about 8hrs drive away.. can you imagine the cost to just get them to show up and not even doing anything? The travel cost.. Even a regular Mechanic is hard to get here... There is no shops just do heavy duty repairs.. if there is a guy that dose repairs he's already employed for a company and he will do it when he can... that could be a week.... so the guys would try their best to fix it and get it back on the trail, a temp fix.. then you end up forgetting about and a year later it comes back to haunt you. Now for the last couple years we do have some good guys that are good a fixing in the club but the machines are in bad shape, the guys are tired of constant repairs. They are still not factory mechanics.

Out here a breakdown like Ski said can mean somebody can die... There is no cell reception, some places there is no CB Radio communications, we did have a Global Star Sat Phone and it was expensive and rarely you could make a call on it. Now we have the Spot Units I can more enjoy my grooming trips as I know that I can ask for help.... but it's still 2 to 3 hours until they can get to me, then I have to ride back on the back of a sled. I have a portable propane heater and I always carry my Snowmobile helmet and full gear. Now that's just getting the operator back home... now you have to decide if you bring back the groomer to town or fix it in place if you bring back to town you have to get a big machine the drag it back because you need to bring back the drag because how will you go back to get it? you can not drive a tractor without the drag. You need a good machine because there is some big hills to pull that groomer all the way, ok you can plow the road..... 60kms of groomed road... will take you 2 to 3 days once you started, by the time its all done you have lost over a week for recovery then you have to still fix it, you have to open things up, order parts and then wait for them to get here and you sure hope they have then in stock and it's not in the states.

ask my district and the OFSC to come up with a plan to have a maintenance program to help out clubs like mine. Have factory mechanic go around and do inspections of the machines and come up with a list of things to be repaired or he can perform them. They know what needs to looked at, what to keep an eye on and will detect future problem before they become major problems. We need something like this. Our TM 130 was a great unit, until we had 2 operators that where a hard on it, there is not many people here you can hire in the winter to groom trails full time.. they did a good job grooming but they where the type that rode things hard and that why our grill, fenders are busted on the groomer... it was a nice clean machine until then.. thing would break and quickly fixed but then came back to bit us in the ass. When ever we get a new groomer things will change and there will not anything like this, I rather park it and get it fix properly.

[02Sled]

I wonder if clubs start up their groomers in the off season. For a lot of areas the season is perhaps 3 months long and the groomer sits 9 months of the year which is less than ideal. We have standby diesel generators for power and the manufacturer stresses to us the need to exercise them regularly. They say it is necessary to keep the engine in operating condition, helping to keep fuel systems flowing and seals from drying out. Our program is to run the engine 20 minutes a week and once a month for 2 hours under load to ensure they get to operating temperatures which may take quite some time at idle.

 

Then there are the clubs that have diesel storage tanks rather than get their fuel from a local station as needed. I never dreamed there was so much to know about diesel fuel. it seems that with the implementation of bio-diesel the fuel is significantly more prone to the absorption of water at the molecular level. Lots of places where diesel sits for long periods of time have their fuel polished to remove contaminants once a year. The tanks especially when not full are prone to the development of algae. I have seen samples taken from diesel tanks where the fuel coming out is black.

 

I know some places are too remote to not have their own storage tanks but it is less than ideal if you have a choice. Not to mention the TSSA requirements associated with having storage tanks and spill containment etc.

[The Groomer Guy]

I wonder if clubs start up their groomers in the off season. For a lot of areas the season is perhaps 3 months long and the groomer sits 9 months of the year which is less than ideal. We have standby diesel generators for power and the manufacturer stresses to us the need to exercise them regularly. They say it is necessary to keep the engine in operating condition, helping to keep fuel systems flowing and seals from drying out. Our program is to run the engine 20 minutes a week and once a month for 2 hours under load to ensure they get to operating temperatures which may take quite some time at idle.

 

Then there are the clubs that have diesel storage tanks rather than get their fuel from a local station as needed. I never dreamed there was so much to know about diesel fuel. it seems that with the implementation of bio-diesel the fuel is significantly more prone to the absorption of water at the molecular level. Lots of places where diesel sits for long periods of time have their fuel polished to remove contaminants once a year. The tanks especially when not full are prone to the development of algae. I have seen samples taken from diesel tanks where the fuel coming out is black.

 

I know some places are too remote to not have their own storage tanks but it is less than ideal if you have a choice. Not to mention the TSSA requirements associated with having storage tanks and spill containment etc.

Groomers are parked in our garage and we try to start them a few times in the off season. We need to have our own fuel tank as the gas station has limited hours and they only have clear Diesel. Red dye is way cheaper.

[soupkids]

Lots of good things said here.

Tractors are not the end all be all they where thought to be, many clubs have had failures that you would never see if the tractor was used on a farm.

Fuel tanks are not that big a deal except for initial purchase price, we have a LOT of them here.

Trained mechanics, hmmmm.

I'll put it to you this way

I work out of town LOTS and I hate being away from my family, do I always to a bang up job of what I am doing, no.

DO I always have the right parts with me , no.

Do I make things work with what I have in the shortest time possible, yes.

And no 2 machines are alike.

[Blizzard]

Luc for sure the north being more remote, longer seasons need the new machines but the ones you give up should not be sold off but refurbished to go to the south

these machines are not junk and after being refurbished. Problem is in all clubs everyone wants a new groomer they would do quite fine in the south especially tractor

groomers having dealers close by. Remember groomer off season is summer time easier to be worked on to get them checked over for next winter.

Soupkids I hope you are not a road mechanic with your attitude of always wanting to be with your family.Would not want you working on my equipmentWhere have all the men gone now act like women

[Techdenis007]

I think what needs to be realized here is the fact that the rugged terrain in Northern Ontario demands a dedicated purpose-built machine built to cope and function properly in this environment.  A tractor can do perfectly well in a more Southern area, as the warmer temps aren't so hard on tires, tracks, etc.  Changing a flat on a pickup truck is a nuisance at 30 below, I wouldn't fathom how fun it could be on a groomer, trailside.  Kap Sno-Rovers had a rear tire go flat last week on one of their tractors, it was an 8 hour job to swap the tire once it was repaired in town.  NO ONE should have that to worry about when you're miles from nowhere and out of contact from help.  I've done enough service calls in my life to understand where they're coming from.

 

It's not to say the machines are Junk, they're just not ideal for their work environment.  Other options are out there. New stuff breaks too, but at least a used true grooming machine would be better than a tractor out there.

[soupkids]

Luc for sure the north being more remote, longer seasons need the new machines but the ones you give up should not be sold off but refurbished to go to the south

these machines are not junk and after being refurbished. Problem is in all clubs everyone wants a new groomer they would do quite fine in the south especially tractor

groomers having dealers close by. Remember groomer off season is summer time easier to be worked on to get them checked over for next winter.

Soupkids I hope you are not a road mechanic with your attitude of always wanting to be with your family.Would not want you working on my equipmentWhere have all the men gone now act like women

No I'm not a mechanic by any means.

When you have hotels sending you xmas and birthday cards you know you spend way to much time away from home.

My average is 3 out of 4 weeks away from home (monday to friday, home weekends)

[02Sled]

No I'm not a mechanic by any means.

When you have hotels sending you xmas and birthday cards you know you spend way to much time away from home.

My average is 3 out of 4 weeks away from home (monday to friday, home weekends)

 

Not fun for many people. Especially those who are married. Travel is what prompted me to retire. I spent 6 weeks in Montreal between mid October and Christmas with 4 of them being the consecutive weeks leading up to Christmas. There was talk about travel to Wichita and Dallas being added to the equation. Some people enjoy that life but living out of a suitcase Monday to Friday and eating in restaurants everyday was not for me. Then when I get home my wife wants to know where I'm taking her for dinner and all I want is a burger at home.

 

I wasn't as much of a regular as you but it really hit home when I went to Tims in the airport each Monday morning for the same flight time and the person behind the counter began to ask if I wanted my usual.

[Old Sledder]

I have dozens of resident/field techs in ON, and these guys work their butts off getting equipment up and running fast for their respective owners. They all work very hard, and many are road warriors spending countless hours travelling all across the province and plenty of time away from their families. 

[matt17]

I think what needs to be realized here is the fact that the rugged terrain in Northern Ontario demands a dedicated purpose-built machine built to cope and function properly in this environment.  A tractor can do perfectly well in a more Southern area, as the warmer temps aren't so hard on tires, tracks, etc.  Changing a flat on a pickup truck is a nuisance at 30 below, I wouldn't fathom how fun it could be on a groomer, trailside.  Kap Sno-Rovers had a rear tire go flat last week on one of their tractors, it was an 8 hour job to swap the tire once it was repaired in town.  NO ONE should have that to worry about when you're miles from nowhere and out of contact from help.  I've done enough service calls in my life to understand where they're coming from.

 

It's not to say the machines are Junk, they're just not ideal for their work environment.  Other options are out there. New stuff breaks too, but at least a used true grooming machine would be better than a tractor out there.

 

Now I have only been operating a groomer for 3 years and can't come close to the experience Luc or many others have with regards to groomers, and have never been in a tractor style.  Having said that a huge benefit i see to the Snow-Cat style in our area is the ability to operate without the drag attached.  This makes it easier to open trails because it is more maneuverable, as well it can turn around anywhere on the trails which is a benefit when in some cases the groomer is "scouting" the trail for the first time of the season due to accessibility.  Also if a breakdown occurs because the drag can be left behind another groomer is able to do the towing.  

 

Now from what i have read/heard  the tractor conversions have their benefits as well (cost, speed, fuel use among others) but the dedicated units have many attributes that seem to have made sense in our area (very similar to Luc's)

[bbakernbay]

Okay, I think it is obvious that not every Club is going to get a new Groomer over the next few years.

The system is now setup whereby the Clubs in the District are going to be the ones deciding on where the groomers are assigned, both the new incoming ones and how the existing fleet is to be moved around as may be necessary.

The big squeeze will start to come next year and the 3 years afterwards when the mandated downsizing of the fleet starts to really hurt.

Not many I have talked to think the OFSC's target reduction can be achieved but Clubs and Districts are going to have to prove they can't physically achieve those targets.

Some Districts, including ours, are facing 50% reduction in total groomers.

Fewer but newer groomers running many more hours is no guarantee of better trails and saving money, in fact it will cost more because of almost every Operator being paid along with District Groomer Supervisor that will be needed to run the show fairly and efficiently.

[sledjunk]

Okay, I think it is obvious that not every Club is going to get a new Groomer over the next few years.

The system is now setup whereby the Clubs in the District are going to be the ones deciding on where the groomers are assigned, both the new incoming ones and how the existing fleet is to be moved around as may be necessary.

The big squeeze will start to come next year and the 3 years afterwards when the mandated downsizing of the fleet starts to really hurt.

Not many I have talked to think the OFSC's target reduction can be achieved but Clubs and Districts are going to have to prove they can't physically achieve those targets.

Some Districts, including ours, are facing 50% reduction in total groomers.

Fewer but newer groomers running many more hours is no guarantee of better trails and saving money, in fact it will cost more because of almost every Operator being paid along with District Groomer Supervisor that will be needed to run the show fairly and efficiently.

Don't forget to add in the cost of the inevitable repairs, where the new g roomers have so much electronics that volunteers will no longer be able to diagnose and repair issues and therefore a trained and diagnostically equipped mechanic will need to be brought in to the mix.

[Faceman]

Wow..We all know what the problem in, or we think we do..So, what is the solution? And I don't mean raising permit prices because we all agree on that.