soupkids Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 I have dozens of resident/field techs in ON, and these guys work their butts off getting equipment up and running fast for their respective owners. They all work very hard, and many are road warriors spending countless hours travelling all across the province and plenty of time away from their families. Best employee you can every get is somebody who is young and has lots of debt !!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Don't forget to add in the cost of the inevitable repairs, where the new g roomers have so much electronics that volunteers will no longer be able to diagnose and repair issues and therefore a trained and diagnostically equipped mechanic will need to be brought in to the mix. Some will. It will depend on if the dealer wants to allow the diagnostic software to be used by a volunteer or not. I know my boss would be for it if we had the right software. Each manufacturer has their own Not like the automotive world! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Wow..We all know what the problem in, or we think we do..So, what is the solution? And I don't mean raising permit prices because we all agree on that.I think we have started part of the solution, right now, the junk is being eliminated.....it had to happen and it wasn't going to without being forced. I believe target numbers will be adjusted going forward, but not before trail kms are reduced. Not every club can reduce trails, but lots can......is that fair?....what is, we can't operate what we have for the income, reductions are needed to become sustainable, it really is a simple thing to figure out, implementation is the painful factor. The masses where heard, now the reduction begins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crow Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 As I am a new poster here I know my opinion may not have much weight but here goes . The way I am seeing it is that the permit price had hit a ceiling. So .he OFSC introduced the "free weekend" and introduced the early permit (180) to try and sell more to get newbies and former sledders back. Now did this work or did it cost them more in lost revenue with less $/permit plus the added abuse to the trail base. Now to save money the idea is to replace old iron with new to somewhere to just over 50% of the current fleet in the next five years thinking less repairs or breakdowns and obviously less insurance as less units on the system. With the reduction of groomers comes the reduction of trails because there will not be enough time to groom current trails with less groomers. IMO, every club has a trail or two that should probably closed, fair enough. But closing these trails to comply with the proposed groomer fleet will come with fewer permit sales, and again IMO, we will be right back to this point in 5 years with tired groomers, fewer trails and as always the cheep a$$ that says the price is too much or simply wont buy a permit as there is no enforcement. I don't have the answer either, wish I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 I think we have started part of the solution, right now, the junk is being eliminated.....it had to happen and it wasn't going to without being forced. I believe target numbers will be adjusted going forward, but not before trail kms are reduced. Not every club can reduce trails, but lots can......is that fair?....what is, we can't operate what we have for the income, reductions are needed to become sustainable, it really is a simple thing to figure out, implementation is the painful factor. The masses where heard, now the reduction begins. I have heard some say that there are trails that exist simply as a result of because they can. It seems that in some clubs there may have been some people who loved to build trails and that the number of km of trail in their club got them bragging rights. They at times would make a trail not so much because it was needed but because someone thought it a nice to have. There has also been suggestions that some trails existed as a matter of convenience for some club people. An example would be a trail that goes to essentially nowhere but then you realize the road it runs to perhaps some club members lived on that road and it was put in as a convenient way for them to access the trail system. It seems that this may have occurred when there was lots of money, few regulations and it was easy to do. Now we have some of those legacy trails. Now it is time to look at who uses, how much traffic, where does it go and other factors to determine the value of a trail. Do we keep grooming 10 km of trail because it provides access to the trail system for three sleds that like to ride from home. Or we may find as we rationalize things there are far more using the trail than first thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkids Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 I D12 we went through the trail reduction a number of years ago. We had a few trails that where just nice to have to make a short loop. Some of those trails have been removed due to land use issues some just because. I know in D12 if we reduce anymore it will make it impossible to get from point A to B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Some will. It will depend on if the dealer wants to allow the diagnostic software to be used by a volunteer or not. I know my boss would be for it if we had the right software. Each manufacturer has their own Not like the automotive world! The engines in the Husky and the Pusten Bully are the same. To read the diagnostics, the reader is about $2000, Bought one for West Carleton for $1000. Thanks Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Guys, We have now in Ontario about 350 groomers. The average year is about 2004-2005. If we are bringing it back to 300 and we want to replace all groomers in 10 years, we have to buy every year 30 groomers. The cost of a groomer and drag is about $300,000. That means an investment of $9,000,000 every year. The permit sales is between $14,000,000 and $15,000,000 if we have a good year. The cost of grooming is between $5,000,000 and $6,000,000 a year. So all the permit revenue is gone up in new groomers and grooming cost. No money left for administration, trail work, liability insurance, groomer insurance (this will go way up with the new groomers), district managers, facilities, the OFSC office and so on. This will never happen with a $180 permit. We must be very lucky if we can replace 15 groomers a year, what most likely also isn't possible. Oh, forgot closing trails, if we close trails in Ontario, we will sell also less permits. This all bring us going down and going every year more down..... The solution, not sure but the replacement of the groomers every 10 years will not happen so we need to come up with a sustainable plan how to keep snowmobiling going in 2020 because we don't have one. Thanks Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Greg I can't dispute anything you say. The permit fee needs to start increasing by at least $15 per year for the next 10 years. Our business model is simply not sustainable at $180 permits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 The engines in the Husky and the Pusten Bully are the same. To read the diagnostics, the reader is about $2000, Bought one for West Carleton for $1000. Thanks Greg What engines are in them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 I just looked it up! It's a Mercedes Benz! Geeze This won't be cheap or an easy fix! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Detroit Diesel software will work apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 What engines are in them? Mercedes engines Thanks Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Detroit Diesel software will work apparently. You need a Merfedes diagnostic kit. It has a round plug.... Thanks Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Greg I can't dispute anything you say. The permit fee needs to start increasing by at least $15 per year for the next 10 years. Our business model is simply not sustainable at $180 permits. You are so right..... Thanks Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 You need a Merfedes diagnostic kit. It has a round plug.... Thanks Greg http://www.nexiq.com/catalog/6 One of these will work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 http://www.nexiq.com/catalog/6 One of these will work Most likely, you are right.... Thanks Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Sledder Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Best employee you can every get is somebody who is young and has lots of debt !!. That type of employee also makes a good salesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tireless Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Can someone explain to me in simple terms why the trails in quebec ( just came back from Saguenay and awesome trails 1000km in three days ) are always groomed to perfection. Yes the permits are more but is it funded by government? Every groomer I saw looked fairly new, whats there formula and why can't it be done in ontario. Just thinking out loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Can someone explain to me in simple terms why the trails in quebec ( just came back from Saguenay and awesome trails 1000km in three days ) are always groomed to perfection. Yes the permits are more but is it funded by government? Every groomer I saw looked fairly new, whats there formula and why can't it be done in ontario. Just thinking out loud. Not to turn this into a political crap show but have you seen how the federal government has divided up the money between the provinces? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkids Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Can someone explain to me in simple terms why the trails in quebec ( just came back from Saguenay and awesome trails 1000km in three days ) are always groomed to perfection. Yes the permits are more but is it funded by government? Every groomer I saw looked fairly new, whats there formula and why can't it be done in ontario. Just thinking out loud. The was an articule I read a couple months ago that said close to 20 mil or some stupid figure like that had been given the QC snowmobile federation in the last 10 years or something like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tireless Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 with all the permits purchased in Ontario, why cant we as a collective along with motel/hotel,resorts, restaurants, gas station owners ETC...... pressure our mp's and mpp's to do something. Is't snowmobiling good for the economy especially for smaller city's and towns. I know for instance, my 3 days snowmobiling in Quebec cost me around $1200 for lodging, gas ,permits ,food ETC.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkids Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 OFSC has a lobby group, how do you think we keep the funding we already get ?? Snowmobiliers are a VERY small portion of the voting public (100 K ish) Do you really think even if everybody joined forces it would make a difference ??? Anywhere north of Hwy 7 is "REMOTE" as far as any govt is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Do you really think even if everybody joined forces it would make a difference ??? Anywhere north of Hwy 7 is "REMOTE" as far as any govt is concerned. With urban sprawl it's now been extended to a bit north of that. They now consider up to King Rd urban Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Greg I can't dispute anything you say. The permit fee needs to start increasing by at least $15 per year for the next 10 years. Our business model is simply not sustainable at $180 permits. Not complete sure if it isn't sustainable. Overall we are doing good with the revenue we receive and how we spend the money. We can still replace groomers but not with brand new ones. There are also lots of used groomers for sale in good shape. For sure most districts have one or more clubs who spend way more money then average and as far as I know nobody has done something against it. I understand that every club is an incorporation and are "allowed" to spend the money how they want. What can the district do about this? There is absolute no proof that grooming corporations or the "new style" (District 5 and 9) are saving money. Don't understand why the OFSC want us to go there. Can't see any savings in getting the groomers under the District in stead of under the clubs. Or the OFSC want to change the "new style" districts in the next couple of years. If so the OFSC need to put the cards on the table. For sure, we can save money on trail expenses, groomer expenses, fuel, landowner suppers and so on. Also the clubs and districts have all together lots of money in bank accounts and short term investment, I am not surprised if there is more then $10,000,000 and I understand the reason behind it, its saving money to replace groomers in the future. Yes, voluntary all clubs can save money but if we are pushed, it will not work. Thanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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