tricky Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I know nothing about groomer costs. I know a lot about organized motorcycling, and a bit about people in general, including sledders. Be extremely careful in assuming that higher permit prices will increase OFSC income. Almost all of us on this forum, including myself, would pay more for our permits, but we are hard core. All permit holders are not hard core. I have sledder friends who bought 1, 2, 3 or 4 permits this year and haven't turned a track, and likely won't. I have friends who didn't buy a permit this year after hardly using them in a great season like last year. I have been to highway 17 or further north three times so far this year in search of that ribbon of snow. I will get my 3-4000 km this year, but thousands are not sledding or sledding very little. We are not all the same! Raising permit prices significantly will undoubtedly help us immediately in one respect. There will be a lot fewer sleds legally out on OFSC trails, but that will kill, not increase, revenue. We have lower cost season permits for older sleds because we know that, without that incentive, permits would not be purchased for many of those older sleds. There is also a notion of fairness in the lower cost vintage sled permit. On average, it is believed that the older sleds will not be using the trails as much as new ones. We also have thousands of sledders who only ride in their home district and maybe a neighbouring one. Similar to the vintage sleds, these sleds cover way less trail per year than I do. Try to jam these sled owners with a large permit price increase, particularly after a season like this one, and you can kiss a lot of their permit fees goodbye. I don't have the answer, and the only suggestion I have has likely been discussed and rejected. Most places, it costs more to golf 18 holes than it does 9. Somehow it needs to cost me, and sledders like me, more (not just in gas and oil) to ride 4K km in six or eight districts, than it does the person who rides 700 km in one district from his home or cottage. Currently we have a dysfunctional 'user pay' system. It needs tweaking, and not just at the groomer end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake G Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 tricky, I see the logic in your words. Motorists pay the same licence fees no matter how much they may drive, but the province collects money via the gas tax, which can theoretically be used to cover the costs of road maintenance. People who sled the most, pay more gas tax than infrequent sledders. I wonder how much of that collected tax is directed back to the OFSC? My sense is that the answer is "Not much." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkids Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 If your club/district can keep grooming costs around the $100/km you are doing very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterules Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I know nothing about groomer costs. I know a lot about organized motorcycling, and a bit about people in general, including sledders. Be extremely careful in assuming that higher permit prices will increase OFSC income. Almost all of us on this forum, including myself, would pay more for our permits, but we are hard core. All permit holders are not hard core. I have sledder friends who bought 1, 2, 3 or 4 permits this year and haven't turned a track, and likely won't. I have friends who didn't buy a permit this year after hardly using them in a great season like last year. I have been to highway 17 or further north three times so far this year in search of that ribbon of snow. I will get my 3-4000 km this year, but thousands are not sledding or sledding very little. We are not all the same! Raising permit prices significantly will undoubtedly help us immediately in one respect. There will be a lot fewer sleds legally out on OFSC trails, but that will kill, not increase, revenue. We have lower cost season permits for older sleds because we know that, without that incentive, permits would not be purchased for many of those older sleds. There is also a notion of fairness in the lower cost vintage sled permit. On average, it is believed that the older sleds will not be using the trails as much as new ones. We also have thousands of sledders who only ride in their home district and maybe a neighbouring one. Similar to the vintage sleds, these sleds cover way less trail per year than I do. Try to jam these sled owners with a large permit price increase, particularly after a season like this one, and you can kiss a lot of their permit fees goodbye. I don't have the answer, and the only suggestion I have has likely been discussed and rejected. Most places, it costs more to golf 18 holes than it does 9. Somehow it needs to cost me, and sledders like me, more (not just in gas and oil) to ride 4K km in six or eight districts, than it does the person who rides 700 km in one district from his home or cottage. Currently we have a dysfunctional 'user pay' system. It needs tweaking, and not just at the groomer end. But your friends that bought 1,2,3 or 4 permits must understand that not every year will be a good year , and some years they might not even get to ride . But that has no bearing on the permit price one buys there permit hoping to ride but there's no guarantee as we can't control the weather . I never rode last year but I still bought a permit last year , I only rode 5 times this year but I'll buy a permit again next year . And if next year theres no snow I'll buy again the following year , I'v bought every year since 1995/96 you get the good years with the bad years it all works out in the end . The cost is so low that if I ride I ride if not o well there's always next year . If some one complains about the permit cost they better not be a smoker or drinker , like how can they complain about a couple hundred bucks when they spend that a month on booze and smokes . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Not much is cheap anymore and the permit cost is a bargain period. I ordered tickets for Kings Wharf Theatre for this summer in Penetang. $110 for my wife and I. Then add dinner before the theatre and we are in the $225 range for a night out. That compared to the permit at $187.50 shows how much of a bargain it is. That being said I have 2 new sleds. One with 0 miles and the other about 150 miles. Disappointed yes but am I going to retaliate against the clubs and not buy permits next year heck no. I'll just use the full refund and partial refund from this year and use that money toward next year. The cheque is apparently in the mail and should be here any day now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterules Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Not much is cheap anymore and the permit cost is a bargain period. I ordered tickets for Kings Wharf Theatre for this summer in Penetang. $110 for my wife and I. Then add dinner before the theatre and we are in the $225 range for a night out. That compared to the permit at $187.50 shows how much of a bargain it is. That being said I have 2 new sleds. One with 0 miles and the other about 150 miles. Disappointed yes but am I going to retaliate against the clubs and not buy permits next year heck no. I'll just use the full refund and partial refund from this year and use that money toward next year. The cheque is apparently in the mail and should be here any day now Refund your getting a refund on your trail passes ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Refund your getting a refund on your trail passes ? You know the cheque is in the mail... that cheque that never arrives. There have been a few people that have actually asked for a refund though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterules Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 You know the cheque is in the mail... that cheque that never arrives. There have been a few people that have actually asked for a refund though. Got ya , Ya I bought a lottery ticket and never won I'm still waiting on my refund as well . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayclar Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 It's almost comical , we are all talking about raising the price of the passes, we need more money. Yet i'll bet we all, or a very large percentage purchased the early discounted trail passes at 187 dollars to save ourselves some money??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetorches Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I'd pay up to $200.00 for the early discounted pass. If there was no early pass and they wanted the $260.00 or more for the season pass, i would wait to see if we would get any snow. In a season like this one where my club hasn't had any trails open at all and it's almost March, i would just put sled away till next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterules Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 It's almost comical , we are all talking about raising the price of the passes, we need more money. Yet i'll bet we all, or a very large percentage purchased the early discounted trail passes at 187 dollars to save ourselves some money??? The OFSC set the price at $187 so why would we not pay that amount . That cost was set by them and should reflect what's needed to run / support the trail system to keep all clubs and trails running . But by the sounds of it it's not enough thus they need to rethink the permit price , I don't want to hear were going to have less grooming and less trails because the funds aren't there . If the funds aren't there raise more funds don't give us less grooming and less trails . The cost of the permit needs to be enough to support our trails if its not raise the dam cost don't give us less trails . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 It's almost comical , we are all talking about raising the price of the passes, we need more money. Yet i'll bet we all, or a very large percentage purchased the early discounted trail passes at 187 dollars to save ourselves some money??? I think we are all like that and probably 80% of the Trail Regular Seasonal Permits sold are now sold at $187.50. I just checked our Clubs total and we are slightly over 80% online. With everything, or almost everything, being sold online next season the likelihood of people purchasing the early, early ( pre November 1st) price will probably increase so $180 Seasonal and the $140 Classic will be more the reality. Firstly, we need to know how many dollars are locked away in various Clubs, Grooming Associations and District bank accounts for the proverbial 'rainy' day and that includes the OFSC. This year is going to be very interesting with virtually no or very low groomer hours by possibly half of the Clubs. These Clubs are likely going to have to return a portion of their Permit revenues already received because their grooming hours are less than the historical average. As mentioned previously most Clubs have been so advised of this likelihood. Whether this money remains at the District or goes back to OFSC Barrie I don't know the particulars on that, hopefully Big Pete, Yukon or Wildbill or others can be more precise. I agree with Greggie that the financial estimates have not been made clear on the MOTS and I agree with him that 16 new Groomers and drags is likely not sustainable and I also agree that well maintained older groomers do make financial sense. NBSC has spent more $$ on our newest Tucker groomer than the 2 older BR's. If the Quebec Trail Permit is $330 and includes only liability insurance, and we all know they get much more Federal and Provincial $$$ than Ontario, then it seems our permit price is too low by comparison. We are told repeatedly that $180 is the correct price point, otherwise we are at risk of losing sales. I think that is all in the way the question is asked. By comparison to other recreation, the permit is still cheap. I just had an oil change, synthetic oil and filter, at Jiffy Lube and it was $114 before HST and it was exactly 15 minutes of pit time. It should be an interesting AGM in September, although I won't be there, I think the Clubs and Districts will want more information on what the 5 Year Plan really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostyTheSnowman Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 This may be a faaaaaaaar fetched idea..... What if there was an "ofsc tax" (little, but some) that the dealers collect on new or used sled sales and is given to the OFSC. Just like gas tax or car tax that the gov collects even if the car is sold 30 times. I know it's not the same as a car that is part of our livelihood to get to and from work etc but.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 This may be a faaaaaaaar fetched idea..... What if there was an "ofsc tax" (little, but some) that the dealers collect on new or used sled sales and is given to the OFSC. Just like gas tax or car tax that the gov collects even if the car is sold 30 times. I know it's not the same as a car that is part of our livelihood to get to and from work etc but.... No there isn't. The OFSC was hoping to convince the provincial government to introduce/increase the Val Tag for all snowmobiles and transfer all or a major portion of those revenues to the OFSC. This has not yet happened and in my opinion is too much of a hot political potato in that many Snowmobilers never use OFSC trails and why should their money be used to fund a trail system and infrastructure they don't use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Feces Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I am nobody, not connected to club in any way really. I buy at least two permits every year and will continue to do so. I also own different parcels of property that I allow ofsc trails on and will continue to as well. I have said before and I'll say again... Make the snowmobile licence the trail pass. Automatically every licenced machine in the province has a trail pass. We apparently have very little in the way of enforcement now, so this will help with that. There are lets say, 3 times? as many licenced machines as permitted machines in the province. Cost could be reduced and still generate more revenue. I'm good w current cost but the northern, hunt, fish, trap guys that don't currently pay for a snow machine lic won't be. Must be some common ground that would benefit all of Ontario. More money for better trails and maintanence sounds like a win to me. Debate away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterules Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 No there isn't. The OFSC was hoping to convince the provincial government to introduce/increase the Val Tag for all snowmobiles and transfer all or a major portion of those revenues to the OFSC. This has not yet happened and in my opinion is too much of a hot political potato in that many Snowmobilers never use OFSC trails and why should their money be used to fund a trail system and infrastructure they don't use. I pay a school tax on my taxes yet I have no kids in school , I have no kids . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetorches Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I pay a school tax on my taxes yet I have no kids in school , I have no kids .It's never too late. Plus, look at all the money your saving by not having kids. You can afford school taxes. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterules Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 It's never too late. Plus, look at all the money your saving by not having kids. You can afford school taxes. LOL. I'm too old no kids for me , and I'm not complaining I just pay it . Point is those guys who don't use the OFSC trails might just have to pay even if they don't use it . It's there choice not to use it as its my choice not to have kids . They were talking about raising my taxes to pay for roads in Toronto , I don't drive in Toronto but I might end up paying for some of there road infrastructure . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I pay a school tax on my taxes yet I have no kids in school , I have no kids . I'm like you. I pay 3 sets of education tax and no kids. The list is extensive I don't use the public pools, rinks, arenas, community centres, libraries and so much more that I pay for. It's just the way it is. I also pay for totally stupid government spending. We had snow in Toronto about a week ago. It was fairly wet and enough to bring out the snowblower to play with. Everyone on the street cleared the snow on their driveways and sidewalks to comply with the bylaw that says you need to clear the sidewalk in front of your house within 24 hours. Two days later the city has a tractor with a plow on the front end running down the sidewalks that don't have any snow on them. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 It's almost comical , we are all talking about raising the price of the passes, we need more money. Yet i'll bet we all, or a very large percentage purchased the early discounted trail passes at 187 dollars to save ourselves some money???nope, bought from thr club at the openhouse, 210 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 The OFSC set the price at $187 so why would we not pay that amount . That cost was set by them and should reflect what's needed to run / support the trail system to keep all clubs and trails running . But by the sounds of it it's not enough thus they need to rethink the permit price , I don't want to hear were going to have less grooming and less trails because the funds aren't there . If the funds aren't there raise more funds don't give us less grooming and less trails . The cost of the permit needs to be enough to support our trails if its not raise the dam cost don't give us less trails .permit prices are already set for next season, no increase. The only thing different, all sales are online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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