Criticizing the OFSC

[BoonerBP]

7 hours ago, Greggie said:

For sure the Ofsc does a lot of good. To make everyone happy isn’t possible. The Ofsc is trying to get the permit money on the trails in stead of spending it on admin cost and wrong investments. Sometimes it bites back, an example there was the problems with the permit buying site. If there was no Ofsc and they didn’t distribute the money from the “south to the north”, there would be no trails anymore in the north. The north is happy with the money but they like as everyone to get more money. The south has no problem with sending money to the north but not too much money. The Ofsc has done a lot on trail work with grants from Tourisme and I think most projects were a success. The ofsc has always helped out clubs with buying new groomers and still is. I can go on and on and can give lots of examples. Did the Ofsc everything right? Oh hell no, but who works and try to do things right makes mistakes. Space for improvement? Always. 

If you look at the clubs, they all have the same mission, making well groomed and well signed trails. Some clubs are doing their s great and other clubs less. Some clubs know their weak points and are trying to make it better, others are old boys clubs. Do the clubs work together? Some do a great job, others are “selfish”. The idea behind MOTS is getting better groomed and better signed trails in Ontario. Does this works? If the clubs want to work this, it will. So far as I see, there are clubs who like MOTS but not in their backyard. If you look back, in the 70’s we were grooming with bed springs and snowmobiles. Now we have great groomers and great drags. For sure, everyone can drive a groomer but isn’t a good groomer operator and know how to make well groomed trails. Also here I can go on an on. We came a long way and we have still ways to improve. 

Advise for everyone who complains:

- get involved in your local club

- go to the board meetings, they all must be open for members

- going to the meetings, you will hear what is going on at the Ofsc, District and club level

- volunteer with signage and trail work 

- ask questions

- after one year going to the club meetings, forward your name to be available for the board

Doing this all, you will see that you can spend 100 or 500 hours a year, there is always things for improvement.

X2 !

[soupkids]

I have Bering involved in the sport since 88/89 which by my math makes 29 years.

Seen lots of good and lots of bad over the years.

[02Sled]

If they don't receive any criticism regarding what's working or not working the general tendency is toward complacency with the perception that if nobody is criticising a system or process it must be working just fine. It is always encouraging though for them to here compliments as well regarding what is working well. That doesn't happen near enough. That could be why so many say it's a thankless job.

[signfan]

17 hours ago, Wildbill said:

There have been large funding changes made that will severely effect the funding of the cottage belt. Large traffic and difficult terrain cost dollars to groom. 

Bill your argument holds weight when looking at decreasing the number of groomers in cottage country.  It's a bad idea.  The ability to recover from large traffic in a short window of time needs to exist in the Bancroft, Haliburton, Muskoka and Parry Sound area.  The equlization funding is directly tied to grooming hours though.  So if you run the equipment the money to do so should follow.  Just don't back down on fleet reduction numbers.  It's a fair argument.  The groomers in these areas should see similar grooming hours covering less km of trail.  As for our area has more rocks than the Kawartha's that's pushing your luck.  Your railbed is very similar to the railbed in the Kawartha's.  Both areas have good and bad trails.  Everyone needs to give MOTS a chance and have your governor stand up when the math isn't working.  There should not be large differences in what it costs to put a groomer down the trail for an hour from one area to the next.  The fuel and wages should be very similar.  Truth is MOTS is highlighting and correcting some major funding issues that have existed in the OFSC for years.  I'm not saying it's 100% correct yet, but it's better.  There were clubs operating with next to nothing year over year and others that socked surpluses away on an annual basis just so they had it in the bank for a rainy day. This new way is getting everyone on an equal playing field. Will some minor tweaking need to occur.  Yes.  But scrapping or not following thru on MOTS would be a bigger mistake than proceeding forward with the plan.  Bottom line is some new equipment was badly needed in the system.  It's starting to happen.   The fleet does need to be reduced, but with an understanding of traffic levels and where it makes sense to make reductions and where it does not.  I still say 7500 hours on a 15 year old groomer should be the real target that gets hit.This would allow the fleet to be a little larger in areas that need the equipment to handle the traffic.

[Wildbill]

10 minutes ago, signfan said:

Bill your argument holds weight when looking at decreasing the number of groomers in cottage country.  It's a bad idea.  The ability to recover from large traffic in a short window of time needs to exist in the Bancroft, Haliburton, Muskoka and Parry Sound area.  The equlization funding is directly tied to grooming hours though.  So if you run the equipment the money to do so should follow.  Just don't back down on fleet reduction numbers.  It's a fair argument.  The groomers in these areas should see similar grooming hours covering less km of trail.  As for our area has more rocks than the Kawartha's that's pushing your luck.  Your railbed is very similar to the railbed in the Kawartha's.  Both areas have good and bad trails.  Everyone needs to give MOTS a chance and have your governor stand up when the math isn't working.  There should not be large differences in what it costs to put a groomer down the trail for an hour from one area to the next.  The fuel and wages should be very similar.  Truth is MOTS is highlighting and correcting some major funding issues that have existed in the OFSC for years.  I'm not saying it's 100% correct yet, but it's better.  There were clubs operating with next to nothing year over year and others that socked surpluses away on an annual basis just so they had it in the bank for a rainy day. This new way is getting everyone on an equal playing field. Will some minor tweaking need to occur.  Yes.  But scrapping or not following thru on MOTS would be a bigger mistake than proceeding forward with the plan.  Bottom line is some new equipment was badly needed in the system.  It's starting to happen.   The fleet does need to be reduced, but with an understanding of traffic levels and where it makes sense to make reductions and where it does not.  I still say 7500 hours on a 15 year old groomer should be the real target that gets hit.This would allow the fleet to be a little larger in areas that need the equipment to handle the traffic.

There are many other differences too 

 

 -The cost of wear and tear of grooming trails on bedrock that all areas do not share the rocks simply beat the tracks up

- areas with lower population or high demand grooming hours such as all night every weekend cannot staff the groomers with volunteers wages cost money the provincial cost average does not take this into account

- Back trail grooming or grooming lake access trails. Anything not done with an industrial groomer is unfunded and therefore drives the district into deficit . Imagine if you would no lake trail to Port Loring

- Local cost of fuel our area is often more per liter than other areas I know that diesel was 12 cents a liter less in the Kawarthas at sledarama than it was here 

- If clubs do not cut groomers they will not get new ones older groomers cost more to maintain 

- The cost of rerouting trails in a landscape that is either too hard or too soft for landowner and highway reroute issues 

 

Just the tip of the iceberg there is more 

[whits-end]

Thanks, Bill.

How many other clubs/districts have spent large money welding Prinoth Husky frames back together and replacing cab mounts?  Replacing MogalMaster blades?  That's the reality here,due to terrain.   With the redistribution of funds there is no longer sufficient money to deal with these high maintenance costs as well as infrastructure costs such as bridge replacements and trail rerouting.  The re-distribution of funds may be seen as 'more fair' to some, but seems to highlight the fact there is insufficient money in total in the system.  Brilliant idea reducing the permit cost.  Not whining, just stating a fact:  Almaguin forecasted a deficit budget as well.  Fact is, if we have a good snow winter Almaguin will be shutting down grooming before season's end.  Either that or shut down more trails.

[revrnd]

15 hours ago, Greggie said:

The ofsc has always helped out clubs with buying new groomers and still is.

 

I understand that going forward the groomers are owned by the OFSC & assigned to the clubs @ the district's discretion.

[zoso]

4 hours ago, whits-end said:

Thanks, Bill.

How many other clubs/districts have spent large money welding Prinoth Husky frames back together and replacing cab mounts?  Replacing MogalMaster blades?  That's the reality here,due to terrain.   With the redistribution of funds there is no longer sufficient money to deal with these high maintenance costs as well as infrastructure costs such as bridge replacements and trail rerouting.  The re-distribution of funds may be seen as 'more fair' to some, but seems to highlight the fact there is insufficient money in total in the system.  Brilliant idea reducing the permit cost.  Not whining, just stating a fact:  Almaguin forecasted a deficit budget as well.  Fact is, if we have a good snow winter Almaguin will be shutting down grooming before season's end.  Either that or shut down more trails.

Try grooming in Sudbury. This is very typical terrain up there. 

[revrnd]

4 hours ago, signfan said:

I still say 7500 hours on a 15 year old groomer should be the real target that gets hit.This would allow the fleet to be a little larger in areas that need the equipment to handle the traffic.

 

I have heard that there may be adjustments made as to where groomers are located to 'maximize' the years of service. 

 

During a club meeting I asked if the OFSC had a plan to replace a few of the oldest/highest hours groomers on a annual basis, rather than @ (fill in the blank) year intervals. Supposedly this is the plan rather than have a large percentage of the groomers needing replacement @ the same time.

[02Sled]

1 hour ago, zoso said:

Try grooming in Sudbury. This is very typical terrain up there. 

Looks a lot like what I've seen in a lot of Muskoka. As well a lot of spots like this where there are deep ruts under that water.

 

 

[revrnd]

31 minutes ago, 02Sled said:

Looks a lot like what I've seen in a lot of Muskoka. As well a lot of spots like this where there are deep ruts under that water.

 

 

 

We had to deal with a couple of mud holes (w/ rocky approaches) like that on the way into the bridge on Weds'. People that complain about why the trails aren't open after the 1st 6" of snow, should check a few trails during the off season.

[grover_yyz]

3 hours ago, revrnd said:

 

We had to deal with a couple of mud holes (w/ rocky approaches) like that on the way into the bridge on Weds'. People that complain about why the trails aren't open after the 1st 6" of snow, should check a few trails during the off season.

Excellent point. This would make for a great article for the snowmobile magazine to again inform the permit riders another major reason why trials are not open after the first couple of snowfalls. Riders only see the beautiful groomed trails in the magazines and not the true "behind the scenes" of our trails in the off season.

[zoso]

5 hours ago, revrnd said:

 

We had to deal with a couple of mud holes (w/ rocky approaches) like that on the way into the bridge on Weds'. People that complain about why the trails aren't open after the 1st 6" of snow, should check a few trails during the off season.

that one always made me laugh, especially after covering my sled and myself in mud trying to pack them down so maybe with another foot of snow and much more packing we could get a groomer in  there. many people have no idea what it takes to get trails open. I think some believe that every trail is a railbed.

[revrnd]

A few of our trails use MNR forest access roads that haven't been properly maintained in years. More or less Jeep or 4x4 pick up only (& that's if you don't care about the paint) trails anymore.

 

TOP B uses the Pine Springs Rd west of Kushog. A lot of it was very rough in my truck last July. I remember as a kid our family taking our '69 Pontiac thru there to Vankoughnet & on to Bracebridge w/ nary a worry. This was before 118 was built. You might take a car thru there now if you didn't give a crap about it.

[Spiderman]

You will never please everyone,  that's just life, somebody has to make decisions and that's how it goes.

 

i care less about what the ofsc are doing and more about what the clubs are doing, clubs and its volunteers are the heart and without them, we have nothing

[FrostyTheSnowman]

During a trip to Temagami again for mid fall grouse hunting I was thinking what it must be like trying to groom the Top A in the area. Just off Fox Run rd it’s pretty rough down to the hydro line and to Rosevelt rd. Just the natural terrain is rugged rugged stuff. Lowell lake rd down the A there’s a bridge and water crossing that’s just a mess. It was impassable. Temagami is my favourite place in the world and I hope to visit with the sled this year. I purchased my permit from the NNTA instead of a club in the south again this year. Not saying I won’t buy from a D5 or D9 club again because I will. Just passing the support around to different clubs each year or two. 

[jrhz06]

I used to think the OFSC was beneficial but the more time I’ve spent volunteering and attending meetings the more I appreciate the work that the clubs do and the less I think of the OFSC. Possibly if the OFSC communicated better or thought out plans thoroughly before implementing them they may be looked upon more favourably. Not an easy job satisfying everyone especially when there are such major differences between districts and clubs but the lack of communication only makes the situation more frustrating and revising plans so frequently does little for their credibility. 

Develop a good plan, communicate it well, then follow through and communicate the progress and results.

[Greggie]

7 hours ago, jrhz06 said:

I used to think the OFSC was beneficial but the more time I’ve spent volunteering and attending meetings the more I appreciate the work that the clubs do and the less I think of the OFSC. Possibly if the OFSC communicated better or thought out plans thoroughly before implementing them they may be looked upon more favourably. Not an easy job satisfying everyone especially when there are such major differences between districts and clubs but the lack of communication only makes the situation more frustrating and revising plans so frequently does little for their credibility. 

Develop a good plan, communicate it well, then follow through and communicate the progress and results.

As I said earlier without the Ofsc we would not have a 30,000 kms trail network in Ontario. I think that it’s not that the Ofsc does a bad communication, most clubs are worse. As example, you guys buy the permits at the local clubs or the club you guys want to support. What does the clubs to update the permit buyers about Mots, you are right most clubs do nothing. If you guys have questions, ask your club. Does this work? No it doesn’t and now you guys start blaming the Ofsc?

[jrhz06]

Greggie, From my experience I have found that it is best for one party to provide direction/communication. The more people that get involved in the communication process the more convoluted the message gets. The OFSC needs to build its credibility with a number of permit buyers and providing a clear description for their vision on their web page and Facebook would go a long way to improve the general public’s impression of them.

[Viperules700]

I have bought a pass every year since 1993. Never missed a year. I do believe there is some issues like is mentioned above. It is mostly a volunteer organization for most part, except for corporate office. 

It is amazing the trail network that clubs can build though, given Terrain, weather, old equipment some clubs are forced to use. The model is defiantly a success just need's to be revamped for today's times. 

Did we really need a new Itg this year, with no apps available, when old guide and apps worked fine. 

Could have money been spent on better things, yes. 

Most business use out of date software for several reasons, one is to cut costs and keep over head lower. 

Ofsc could do the same and use money for  trail improvements instead. 

Rant over. 

 

[revrnd]

1 hour ago, Viperules700 said:

I have bought a pass every year since 1993. Never missed a year. I do believe there is some issues like is mentioned above. It is mostly a volunteer organization for most part, except for corporate office. 

It is amazing the trail network that clubs can build though, given Terrain, weather, old equipment some clubs are forced to use. The model is defiantly a success just need's to be revamped for today's times. 

Did we really need a new Itg this year, with no apps available, when old guide and apps worked fine. 

Could have money been spent on better things, yes. 

Most business use out of date software for several reasons, one is to cut costs and keep over head lower. 

Ofsc could do the same and use money for  trail improvements instead. 

Rant over. 

 

BTDT 

 

Using a MS-DOS based inventory control program in 2008. I hated it!

 

Spent a couple of hours today checking the road crossings in the Apsley area & got the req'd signs & posts. Hope to get them planted on Sun'. Brush on TOP E on Fri' w/ 3 other guys. I wonder how much work Ned Nickerson contributes to his 'home' club?

[02Sled]

4 hours ago, revrnd said:

BTDT 

 

Using a MS-DOS based inventory control program in 2008. I hated it!

 

Spent a couple of hours today checking the road crossings in the Apsley area & got the req'd signs & posts. Hope to get them planted on Sun'. Brush on TOP E on Fri' w/ 3 other guys. I wonder how much work Ned Nickerson contributes to his 'home' club?

No matter what program you use it always relies on a series of 1s and 0s. Check your computer and you will find a DOS prompt. Selecting an icon in Windows is a simplified way of executing a DOS command. 

[Wildbill]

16 hours ago, Greggie said:

As I said earlier without the Ofsc we would not have a 30,000 kms trail network in Ontario. I think that it’s not that the Ofsc does a bad communication, most clubs are worse. As example, you guys buy the permits at the local clubs or the club you guys want to support. What does the clubs to update the permit buyers about Mots, you are right most clubs do nothing. If you guys have questions, ask your club. Does this work? No it doesn’t and now you guys start blaming the Ofsc?

Without the volunteers there would be no trails. The corporate office is not more important. Open and constructive criticism allows for thought and improvement. I am beyond frustrated with those that think that we cannot express our thoughts.   

[02Sled]

16 hours ago, jrhz06 said:

Greggie, From my experience I have found that it is best for one party to provide direction/communication. The more people that get involved in the communication process the more convoluted the message gets. The OFSC needs to build its credibility with a number of permit buyers and providing a clear description for their vision on their web page and Facebook would go a long way to improve the general public’s impression of them.

If the OFSC were to disseminate clear communications much more often to the districts and clubs the districts and clubs would be in a much better position to provide accurate information to the riders. Without that information from the OFSC they districts and clubs face a distinct disadvantage when questions are asked.

 

We all know what happens when one person says the fox chased the rabbit through the woods and caught it. By the time that same story has been passed through a dozen people who do their own paraphrasing it becomes completely distorted and doesn't resemble anything that was originally said.

 

In this day and age the OFSC have multiple electronic modes of communication to riders. When you buy a permit you provide an email address. If you tick that you are willing to get messages from the OFSC they can now send a clear and specific message to all those permit buyers. They have a website on which they can put up clear messages as well as Facebook.

 

There is a lot of discord with the new ITG. It would be nice to hear more on that topic than they have published. If they have a sound reason for abandoning a tool that was working well and implementing one that "is a work in progress", explain it to people. When you do that you would be surprised how many people would maybe say to themselves, ah... now I understand.

[revrnd]

17 hours ago, 02Sled said:

No matter what program you use it always relies on a series of 1s and 0s. Check your computer and you will find a DOS prompt. Selecting an icon in Windows is a simplified way of executing a DOS command. 

It was how BACK on 1 screen was F1 & on the next it was F4. I wasn't introduced to computers until Widows 95, so everything was Greek to me.