SlowTouringGuy Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 we have a great product Yup !! Damn tootin' we do! Did it cost us less this year to produce that product?? So why give it away for less than last year ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 I have heard already that clubs will be gone next year. You can't bring up Quebec. They have a whole different situation over there with Government backing and insurance. FFC was a take it all or nothing proposal and the $180 permit was deal breaker for me. Expanding the trail system is highly unlikely. Holland Landing folded this year. They sold plenty of permits and had an estabilished trail network and OFSC let them fade away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Yup !! Damn tootin' we do! Did it cost us less this year to produce that product?? So why give it away for less than last year ?? Hell, many clubs still don't know what they will recieve for grooming. FFC was based off the previous 4 years grooming hours. Distr. 5 probably groomed more hour this winter than they did in the previous 4 combined. Funds will be waaaaaayyyy short. Now what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 we have a great productX2! I didn't hit very many bad trails this winter. Those 30 series trails north east of lake musoka were awesome, as an example! I feel we have under priced ourselves, because of a few strings of bad winters! Next year we should have more permit buyers, so things should balance out, with say a modest permit price increase! If it wasn't for volunteers, we wouldn't be trail riding in this province, unless you went to hailburton forest and paid 60 bucks to ride for the day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Yup !! Damn tootin' we do! Did it cost us less this year to produce that product?? So why give it away for less than last year ?? that what I said at convention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vectordevil Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 X2! I didn't hit very many bad trails this winter. Those 30 series trails north east of lake musoka were awesome, as an example! I feel we have under priced ourselves, because of a few strings of bad winters! Next year we should have more permit buyers, so things should balance out, with say a modest permit price increase! If it wasn't for volunteers, we wouldn't be trail riding in this province, unless you went to hailburton forest and paid 60 bucks to ride for the day! well said !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Correct. And Ontario has trouble telling clubs what, if any, money they are going to get in March. $300 in Quebec....doesn't that include their insurance too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 $300 in Quebec....doesn't that include their insurance too? Yes, but if you live in Ontario, they send you a cheque for the $45 to refund the insurance. The insurance is not valid for out of province buyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carguy Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 $300 in Quebec....doesn't that include their insurance too? Yes it does for Quebec residents. That's why it's hard to compare the two systems. They produce a top quality product, and there is a joint effort with their ATV trails as well. Our system here is broken, and the people in charge at OFSC don't have a clue how to fix it. They are trying Band-Aid solutions, but the whole system needs an overhaul. They put a lot of time and effort to sell Framework For Change to all of the clubs in the province, and it doesn't appear to be working the way they told us it would. We'll have to wait for the final tally to know for sure. The problem is still as stated earlier, the volunteers are being told what to do and how to act by people that are not out there. The OFSC doesn't want to deal with every club in the province. They only want to deal with the 16 district offices, and that leaves the volunteers without a voice. The old boys (and girls) club that is making decisions, needs to be changed. They are making decisions that affect hard working clubs and volunteers without any regard for the consequences. Close a bunch of clubs, close a whole district, drop permit prices and let the clubs deal with producing a better product with less revenue. Volunteers are getting fed up and leaving. Changes need to happen, and convention is the only place to make the change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 The point I'm trying to get at is their insurance is included. Why can't Ontario do that? Yes, but if you live in Ontario, they send you a cheque for the $45 to refund the insurance. The insurance is not valid for out of province buyers. Yes it does for Quebec residents. That's why it's hard to compare the two systems. They produce a top quality product, and there is a joint effort with their ATV trails as well. Our system here is broken, and the people in charge at OFSC don't have a clue how to fix it. They are trying Band-Aid solutions, but the whole system needs an overhaul. They put a lot of time and effort to sell Framework For Change to all of the clubs in the province, and it doesn't appear to be working the way they told us it would. We'll have to wait for the final tally to know for sure. The problem is still as stated earlier, the volunteers are being told what to do and how to act by people that are not out there. The OFSC doesn't want to deal with every club in the province. They only want to deal with the 16 district offices, and that leaves the volunteers without a voice. The old boys (and girls) club that is making decisions, needs to be changed. They are making decisions that affect hard working clubs and volunteers without any regard for the consequences. Close a bunch of clubs, close a whole district, drop permit prices and let the clubs deal with producing a better product with less revenue. Volunteers are getting fed up and leaving. Changes need to happen, and convention is the only place to make the change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Very different civil legal system there and significant caps on liability settlements / judgements AFAIK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 I have heard already that clubs will be gone next year. You can't bring up Quebec. They have a whole different situation over there with Government backing and insurance. FFC was a take it all or nothing proposal and the $180 permit was deal breaker for me. Expanding the trail system is highly unlikely. Holland Landing folded this year. They sold plenty of permits and had an estabilished trail network and OFSC let them fade away. The only way I can see them fading away if as you say they sold plenty of permits and an established trail network would be if nobody stepped up to volunteer to run the club, maintain those trails etc. So how could that be the OFSC let them fade away? Nobody can force people to volunteer. We are quickly becoming a society with a distinct sense of entitlement where it is taken for granted that I pay my money and the trails just happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carguy Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 The only way I can see them fading away if as you say they sold plenty of permits and an established trail network would be if nobody stepped up to volunteer to run the club, maintain those trails etc. So how could that be the OFSC let them fade away? Nobody can force people to volunteer. We are quickly becoming a society with a distinct sense of entitlement where it is taken for granted that I pay my money and the trails just happen. They didn't fade away. They were disenfranchised. They sold 1000+ permits, but the grooming association was the permit buying entity with OFSC. Association did not give HL permits to sell, and even took their name off the online permit system. The association ended up putting their permits in HL's dealerships, but wouldn't credit those permits to HL. OFSC was asked to step in, but they refused to get involved. At end of season, HL did not have 50 permits to their name, and were booted. All their equipment, signs and stakes were taken by the grooming association. Lots of info on the various forums. Ridiculous that the OFSC wouldn't step in to mediate the problem to keep trails open. That's why I said that OFSC is taking any opportunity or excuse to close trails, not add more trails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Yes it does for Quebec residents. That's why it's hard to compare the two systems. They produce a top quality product, and there is a joint effort with their ATV trails as well. Our system here is broken, and the people in charge at OFSC don't have a clue how to fix it. They are trying Band-Aid solutions, but the whole system needs an overhaul. They put a lot of time and effort to sell Framework For Change to all of the clubs in the province, and it doesn't appear to be working the way they told us it would. We'll have to wait for the final tally to know for sure. The problem is still as stated earlier, the volunteers are being told what to do and how to act by people that are not out there. The OFSC doesn't want to deal with every club in the province. They only want to deal with the 16 district offices, and that leaves the volunteers without a voice. The old boys (and girls) club that is making decisions, needs to be changed. They are making decisions that affect hard working clubs and volunteers without any regard for the consequences. Close a bunch of clubs, close a whole district, drop permit prices and let the clubs deal with producing a better product with less revenue. Volunteers are getting fed up and leaving. Changes need to happen, and convention is the only place to make the change. I don't think that there will be one district closing up. Also district 17 not. The permit price will increase next year, we need more money to survive. All the clubs together will have a shortfall of at least $5,000,000or more. For one year, not the biggest problem. Permit sales is up, some districts a lot, other districts are still down. On the long term, I can see clubs closing with low permit sales. Producing a better product with less money, what are you smoking? Impossible, a better product cost more money. I don't think that our trails are worse then the Quebec trails. If we want to change, we need to start soon promoting the change. At the AGM it's to late. Thanks Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carguy Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Producing a better product with less money, what are you smoking? Impossible, a better product cost more money. I don't think that our trails are worse then the Quebec trails. If we want to change, we need to start soon promoting the change. At the AGM it's to late. Thanks Greg I agree with you Greg. It takes more money to produce a better product. And in years like this, a lot more money. When we get a lot of snow, our trails are as good as any in Quebec, but most years, they just get so much more snow to work with than we do. As for D17, I don't know. They are all alone out there, with their closest neighbours being in Manitoba and Wisconsin. I don't think it will be long before OFSC cuts them loose. They will have to form an alliance with Wisconsin and Manitoba to keep their trails (separate permit?). There are no trails linking them to the rest of the province, no tourism loop around Lake Superior, and very few local riders to justify the amount of money they collect from OFSC every year. Not bashing D17, just following the OFSC logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 They didn't fade away. They were disenfranchised. They sold 1000+ permits, but the grooming association was the permit buying entity with OFSC. Association did not give HL permits to sell, and even took their name off the online permit system. The association ended up putting their permits in HL's dealerships, but wouldn't credit those permits to HL. OFSC was asked to step in, but they refused to get involved. At end of season, HL did not have 50 permits to their name, and were booted. All their equipment, signs and stakes were taken by the grooming association. Lots of info on the various forums. Ridiculous that the OFSC wouldn't step in to mediate the problem to keep trails open. That's why I said that OFSC is taking any opportunity or excuse to close trails, not add more trails. The OFSC did mediate but they wouldn't accept the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carguy Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Classic, on 17 Mar 2014 - 3:51 PM, said:The OFSC did mediate but they wouldn't accept the results. me·di·a·tionnoun \ˌmē-dē-ˈā-shən\ CloseStyle: MLA APA Chicago Definition of MEDIATION : the act or process of mediating; especially : intervention between conflicting parties to promote reconciliation, settlement, or compromise — me·di·a·tion·al \-shnəl, -shə-nəl\ adjective Sorry, no they did not mediate. They told HL they were on their own to deal with the grooming association. That's not mediating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PISTON LAKE CRUISER Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 X3 on both above statements. Also the eastern end of D5 does get the tail end of the streamers off of Lake Huron which usually gives them a bit more of a winter. You better look at a District map. The area he is talking about developing trails in is in the eastern end of District 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aar0n Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 I don't see what is wrong with the OFSC. I pay my $210 and I ride nothing but fresh groomed trails for 3 solid months (dec 19th - march19th 2014). 90 days of absolute awesomeness, for $210. I have done 22 large rides this season which equates to less than $10 for each ride. That is ridiculous! Incredible value. Honestly, even for $300 it is great value. how much does it cost to join a ski resort for the season? way more than that. Hell, Haliburton Wildlife Forest charges $500 for a season permit, and that isn't for 30,000km of trails! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I don't see what is wrong with the OFSC. I pay my $210 and I ride nothing but fresh groomed trails for 3 solid months (dec 19th - march19th 2014). 90 days of absolute awesomeness, for $210. I have done 22 large rides this season which equates to less than $10 for each ride. That is ridiculous! Incredible value. Honestly, even for $300 it is great value. how much does it cost to join a ski resort for the season? way more than that. Hell, Haliburton Wildlife Forest charges $500 for a season permit, and that isn't for 30,000km of trails! good to see that you get it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 me·di·a·tion noun \ˌmē-dē-ˈā-shən\ CloseStyle: MLA APA Chicago Definition of MEDIATION : the act or process of mediating; especially : intervention between conflicting parties to promote reconciliation, settlement, or compromise — me·di·a·tion·al \-shnəl, -shə-nəl\ adjective Sorry, no they did not mediate. They told HL they were on their own to deal with the grooming association. That's not mediating. I beg to differ. I know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowTouringGuy Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I have heard already that clubs will be gone next year. You can't bring up Quebec. They have a whole different situation over there with Government backing and insurance. FFC was a take it all or nothing proposal and the $180 permit was deal breaker for me. Expanding the trail system is highly unlikely. Holland Landing folded this year. They sold plenty of permits and had an estabilished trail network and OFSC let them fade away. Well, I can bring up Quebec as a comment to what you have introduced - Government backing and insurance. They have tons of government backing and their insurance costs are significantly less yet they charge 66.67% more for an early bird permit than we did this year. If we have little government backing and high insurance why are we charging less than them?? We've undersold our product and are in deep Financial Doo Doo !! In addition, and very recently, we've lost an entire District. In addition, the OFSC is promoting 'Loops' yet they let C101F fade away. And yes, the Holland Landing club and all their trails. And it is becoming more difficult (and less rewarding under the current system) to keep open and maintain "club trails". How long before our bleeding financial coffers only support the A, B, C, D, E trails?? When it suits them, the OFSC steps back and says, "this is a grassroots system run by the voice of the clubs", instead of stepping in and mediating or intervening "in the best interest of Snowmobiling". Lack of Leadership ! And, back to your comment about Government backing elsewhere, who is Lead Dog on Ontario Government lobbying? Is it the BRP shill Ned Nickerson? Shouldn't there be a high-powered government relations specialist who is bending arms at the Ministry of Natural Resources, the Ministry of the Environment, The Ministry of Transportation, the Ministry of Labour and so on and so on ? Several years ago, a remote lodge by the name of Joncas burned to the ground. A beautiful destination and a sad loss. Within the year it was determined that the owners were not going to rebuild. The Government & FCMQ stepped in. The main trail was re-routed - bulldozed through a Nature Preserve, no less - a new lodge was anointed and tourists could continue to come and spend money on gas and lodging and food on the trails. Name your favourite lodge in Ontario. 3 Bears? Owl's Nest? Sportsman's ......any one, of many, at all...... What do you think the OFSC would do if a popular lodge was destroyed? Would they partner with the Ontario Government and it's various Ministries to make sure that this valuable tourism industry were protected? Or would they say (C101F, District 16, Holland Landing) "it is really a matter for the clubs to take care of" ?? Oh, and let's try to encourage more people to ride fewer trails - next year's early bird should be $150.00 ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderman Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I don't see what is wrong with the OFSC. I pay my $210 and I ride nothing but fresh groomed trails for 3 solid months (dec 19th - march19th 2014). 90 days of absolute awesomeness, for $210. I have done 22 large rides this season which equates to less than $10 for each ride. That is ridiculous! Incredible value. Honestly, even for $300 it is great value. how much does it cost to join a ski resort for the season? way more than that. Hell, Haliburton Wildlife Forest charges $500 for a season permit, and that isn't for 30,000km of trails! Unfortunately the larger sledding population cant seem to get this through their very thick skulls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Well, I can bring up Quebec as a comment to what you have introduced - Government backing and insurance. They have tons of government backing and their insurance costs are significantly less yet they charge 66.67% more for an early bird permit than we did this year. If we have little government backing and high insurance why are we charging less than them?? We've undersold our product and are in deep Financial Doo Doo !! In addition, and very recently, we've lost an entire District. In addition, the OFSC is promoting 'Loops' yet they let C101F fade away. And yes, the Holland Landing club and all their trails. And it is becoming more difficult (and less rewarding under the current system) to keep open and maintain "club trails". How long before our bleeding financial coffers only support the A, B, C, D, E trails?? When it suits them, the OFSC steps back and says, "this is a grassroots system run by the voice of the clubs", instead of stepping in and mediating or intervening "in the best interest of Snowmobiling". Lack of Leadership ! And, back to your comment about Government backing elsewhere, who is Lead Dog on Ontario Government lobbying? Is it the BRP shill Ned Nickerson? Shouldn't there be a high-powered government relations specialist who is bending arms at the Ministry of Natural Resources, the Ministry of the Environment, The Ministry of Transportation, the Ministry of Labour and so on and so on ? Several years ago, a remote lodge by the name of Joncas burned to the ground. A beautiful destination and a sad loss. Within the year it was determined that the owners were not going to rebuild. The Government & FCMQ stepped in. The main trail was re-routed - bulldozed through a Nature Preserve, no less - a new lodge was anointed and tourists could continue to come and spend money on gas and lodging and food on the trails. Name your favourite lodge in Ontario. 3 Bears? Owl's Nest? Sportsman's ......any one, of many, at all...... What do you think the OFSC would do if a popular lodge was destroyed? Would they partner with the Ontario Government and it's various Ministries to make sure that this valuable tourism industry were protected? Or would they say (C101F, District 16, Holland Landing) "it is really a matter for the clubs to take care of" ?? Oh, and let's try to encourage more people to ride fewer trails - next year's early bird should be $150.00 ! we have government relations people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowTouringGuy Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 we have government relations people Quite Apparently Ineffective ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.