What's it going to take to get some trails around here?

[Doogirl69]

Well, I can bring up Quebec as a comment to what you have introduced - Government backing and insurance.   They have tons of government backing and their insurance costs are significantly less yet they charge 66.67% more for an early bird permit than we did this year.  If we have little government backing and high insurance why are we charging less than them??   We've undersold our product and are in deep Financial Doo Doo !! 

 

In addition, and very recently, we've lost an entire District.   In addition, the OFSC is promoting 'Loops' yet they let C101F fade away.  And yes, the Holland Landing club and all their trails.  And it is becoming more difficult (and less rewarding under the current system) to keep open and maintain "club trails".  How long before our bleeding financial coffers only support the A, B, C, D, E trails??

 

When it suits them, the OFSC steps back and says, "this is a grassroots system run by the voice of the clubs", instead of stepping in and mediating or intervening "in the best interest of Snowmobiling".  Lack of Leadership ! 

 

And, back to your comment about Government backing elsewhere, who is Lead Dog on Ontario Government lobbying?   Is it the BRP shill Ned Nickerson?  Shouldn't there be a high-powered government relations specialist who is bending arms at the Ministry of Natural Resources, the Ministry of the Environment, The Ministry of Transportation, the Ministry of Labour and so on and so on ? 

 

Several years ago, a remote lodge by the name of Joncas burned to the ground.  A beautiful destination and a sad loss.  Within the year it was determined that the owners were not going to rebuild.  The Government & FCMQ stepped in.  The main trail was re-routed - bulldozed through a Nature Preserve, no less - a new lodge was anointed and tourists could continue to come and spend money on gas and lodging and food on the trails.  

Name your favourite lodge in Ontario.   3 Bears?  Owl's Nest?  Sportsman's ......any one, of many, at all...... What do you think the OFSC would do if a popular lodge was destroyed?  Would they partner with the Ontario Government and it's various Ministries to make sure that this valuable tourism industry were protected?  Or would they say (C101F, District 16, Holland Landing) "it is really a matter for the clubs to take care of" ?? 

 

Oh, and let's try to encourage more people to ride fewer trails - next year's early bird should be $150.00 !

 

Great post.

 

Are you going to go to the OFSC AGM and express your views? We need people like you to set them straight.

[Mossy]

Great post.

 

Are you going to go to the OFSC AGM and express your views? We need people like you to set them straight.

 Send Viperrules700!

[carguy]

Great post.

 

Are you going to go to the OFSC AGM and express your views? We need people like you to set them straight.

X2

[02Sled]

I don't see what is wrong with the OFSC. I pay my $210 and I ride nothing but fresh groomed trails for 3 solid months (dec 19th - march19th 2014). 90 days of absolute awesomeness, for $210. I have done 22 large rides this season which equates to less than $10 for each ride. That is ridiculous! Incredible value. Honestly, even for $300 it is great value. how much does it cost to join a ski resort for the season? way more than that. Hell, Haliburton Wildlife Forest charges $500 for a season permit, and that isn't for 30,000km of trails! 

I don't think you need to convince anyone here... there are a bunch out there that seem to think otherwise though... convince them. Of all the costs in snowmobiling the permit is the least of my concerns. Heck... no matter where my wife and I stop for lunch when out riding we always seem to be able to leave about $40 behind. A couple of weeks ago we had one of those nice sunny days. We stopped in the middle of the lake where 10 & 17 meet. No cottages anywhere, no sounds, just the rocks, trees and snow... peaceful and beautiful. The countless dear we saw on 12 near Swift Rapids, the view from the top of the lock or the bridge across the McDonald River, the ice caves and the great friends to ride with. Priceless experiences. $210 is cheap.

[zoso]

We need to freeze the classic and end the early early discount, also end the free weekend. Clearly revenue is an issue, and when money is tight clubs become stressed, and clubs are volunteers, they can walk from that stress, so yes fininacial issues eventually lead to loss of interest at the volunteer level. It could not be any more clear that those that wish to ride groomed trails need to pay more. We need to see the early permit at least 225, with a 300 after dec 1 price, we need legislation that makes a trespass charge have a min of a 500 fine, and a no permit charge a min of 1k. This is the clear way to the future, coists across the board for everything in life have risen, yet here we are, giving away our trails on thr backs of worn out and tired volunteers. The OFSC needs to get back to basics, get rid of all the fluff, the extravagant meetings that the minority of members actually get to attend and treat as mini vacations. I have been saying this for years, have been called alot of names for doing so and those that are benefitting from the OFSC coffers for income or percs do not want t hear it, but the bed they made is now wet.

[02Sled]

We need to freeze the classic and end the early early discount, also end the free weekend. Clearly revenue is an issue, and when money is tight clubs become stressed, and clubs are volunteers, they can walk from that stress, so yes fininacial issues eventually lead to loss of interest at the volunteer level. It could not be any more clear that those that wish to ride groomed trails need to pay more. We need to see the early permit at least 225, with a 300 after dec 1 price, we need legislation that makes a trespass charge have a min of a 500 fine, and a no permit charge a min of 1k. This is the clear way to the future, coists across the board for everything in life have risen, yet here we are, giving away our trails on thr backs of worn out and tired volunteers. The OFSC needs to get back to basics, get rid of all the fluff, the extravagant meetings that the minority of members actually get to attend and treat as mini vacations. I have been saying this for years, have been called alot of names for doing so and those that are benefitting from the OFSC coffers for income or percs do not want t hear it, but the bed they made is now wet.

How about do away with the classic?

[Nith Valley Sledder]

How about do away with the classic?

 

That would be a great idea. Riding a 15 year old sled on today's trails is not a hardship. We have a user pay system and they have been getting a free ride. The initial idea was to get people back into the sport and get the older sleds dragged out of the shed. The problem is they haven't upgraded to newer sleds but stayed with the old one and a cheap permit. Change the classic to 30 years or older and the antique guys can use it.

[ScottyD]

i dont see a problem with the classic permit, its revenue that was made that the ofsc didnt have before. iI know a few people that have the classic permit and have used the trails 2-3 times, they cant afford newer sleds

its not the old iron that wrecks the trails, its the new high hp sleds with 1 1/4 tracks or larger that tear them up

[02Sled]

i dont see a problem with the classic permit, its revenue that was made that the ofsc didnt have before. iI know a few people that have the classic permit and have used the trails 2-3 times, they cant afford newer sleds

its not the old iron that wrecks the trails, its the new high hp sleds with 1 1/4 tracks or larger that tear them up

and how many of those 15 year old sleds that are pretty reliable and pretty comfortable that are regularly ridden get a cheap permit. I saw a lot of them out there this year and know there are lots that get ridden a lot more than 2 to 3 times a year. If you ride 2-3 times a year download an online permit when you want to ride. Get two - 3 day permits for $150 and ride the free weekend. Your 2 to 3 days a year or more than covered and on top of that you saved $20...

[aar0n]

and how many of those 15 year old sleds that are pretty reliable and pretty comfortable that are regularly ridden get a cheap permit. I saw a lot of them out there this year and know there are lots that get ridden a lot more than 2 to 3 times a year. If you ride 2-3 times a year download an online permit when you want to ride. Get two - 3 day permits for $150 and ride the free weekend. Your 2 to 3 days a year or more than covered and on top of that you saved $20...

I think the classic permit is a great thing. Especially for youngsters like me who have to pay for all the costs related to sledding. As mentioned, it isn't the older sleds that tear up the trails. Its the 270hp turbo cats with 1.5 inch track that can take corners and bumps at speeds the older sleds can't. Removing the classic permit will simply cut out an essential segment of the ofsc permit sales. Even if those permits don't generate revenue, it will get people into the sport, and even if they can't afford newer sleds, they will likely volunteer and support their local club with their time and not their money

[GPK Racing]

I drive a 2010 sled, my wife drives an 87 or a 79. My son will ride one of the older ones once he turns 12 and has the opportunity to get an operators permit. 

I will not buy a full priced permit for the older sleds, did for many years at full price.

So, if there is no classic permit when that time comes in a couple of years, I won't buy one for my 2010 either. I don't have to trail ride to enjoy the sport. 

My situation may be different than others but I am sure many families cannot afford all newer sleds and may take advantage of the classic permit.

How do you know what the overall impact and loss may be? You don't.

 

Its already in place, it gets more people into the sport of trail riding, they become part of the volunteer poll if they are welcomed.

 

I don't see the down side.

 

On the other hand if the folks driving classic sleds hear nothing but ill will and complaints they are getting a free or cheap ride, do you really think they will want to help?

[Nith Valley Sledder]

I think the classic permit is a great thing. Especially for youngsters like me who have to pay for all the costs related to sledding. As mentioned, it isn't the older sleds that tear up the trails. Its the 270hp turbo cats with 1.5 inch track that can take corners and bumps at speeds the older sleds can't. Removing the classic permit will simply cut out an essential segment of the ofsc permit sales. Even if those permits don't generate revenue, it will get people into the sport, and even if they can't afford newer sleds, they will likely volunteer and support their local club with their time and not their money

 

There are very few 270 HP sleds on the trails. The majority of the sleds are in the 600cc class. The older sleds do just as much damage as the new sleds. You still see them leaving a rooster trail halfway down the field and ripping the trail to pieces. They burn off just as much snow through the bush corners as any new sled. Any sled can be driven responsibly to minimize damage to the trail but unfortunately most people don't so it doesn't matter if you have a new or old sled.

 

Our sport is not cheap. If you can afford a sled, insurance, gear, fuel, trailer etc. then you can afford a full cost permit. If you can't, maybe you should get out of snowmobiling and into something better suited to your wallet. Snowmobiling in Ontario is a USER PAY system and we can't afford to have people getting a free ride. The OFSC blew it this year by pissing away $30 per permit with the Nov 1 early bird. It was the dedicated snowmobilers that were the majority of the people buying that permit. They would be buying a permit anyway so what was the gain?

[GPK Racing]

Why wouldn't everyone embrace that kind of welcoming attitude?

[GPK Racing]

Why wouldn't everyone embrace that kind of welcoming attitude?

 

The OFSC last time I checked is run by volunteers. 

 

We hear never ending complaints about how short clubs are on volunteers. Why would anyone want to help out clubs that show that kind of disrespect to people just because the drive an older sled for whatever reason.

 

The cut off year for the classic permit is wrong, it should be 25 years at least. It isn't but getting rid of it is just cutting off your nose despite your face.

 

Vintage and classic sleds seem to be great when clubs want to have a special event and have collectors bring their sleds out to put on display. Maybe we should start charging for that and make that a user pay system if clubs want us to set up displays? That's only fair isn't it?

[zoso]

Why wouldn't everyone embrace that kind of welcoming attitude?

 

The OFSC last time I checked is run by volunteers. 

 

We hear never ending complaints about how short clubs are on volunteers. Why would anyone want to help out clubs that show that kind of disrespect to people just because the drive an older sled for whatever reason.

 

The cut off year for the classic permit is wrong, it should be 25 years at least. It isn't but getting rid of it is just cutting off your nose despite your face.

 

Vintage and classic sleds seem to be great when clubs want to have a special event and have collectors bring their sleds out to put on display. Maybe we should start charging for that and make that a user pay system if clubs want us to set up displays? That's only fair isn't it?

Asking YOU to PAY what IT costs is not disrespect.

[GPK Racing]

Constant complaints about people with classic sleds getting a free ride even though they are paying the price asked for by the OFSC for the classic permit is. That is paying what it costs is it not?

Take your frustrations out on those who made the decisions on the permit prices and not the people buying the permits regardless of price or age of sled being used.

All it is doing is turning people off big time that might otherwise be eager to help. 

[02Sled]

Why wouldn't everyone embrace that kind of welcoming attitude?

 

The OFSC last time I checked is run by volunteers. 

 

We hear never ending complaints about how short clubs are on volunteers. Why would anyone want to help out clubs that show that kind of disrespect to people just because the drive an older sled for whatever reason.

 

The cut off year for the classic permit is wrong, it should be 25 years at least. It isn't but getting rid of it is just cutting off your nose despite your face.

 

Vintage and classic sleds seem to be great when clubs want to have a special event and have collectors bring their sleds out to put on display. Maybe we should start charging for that and make that a user pay system if clubs want us to set up displays? That's only fair isn't it?

 

Explain to me how expecting everyone to pay the same to ride the same trails is unwelcoming. You seem to be suggesting we have to give someone who rides a 15 year old seld that may have been sledding for many years a significant discount through the classic permit to make them feel welcome? But the person who is actually new to the sport and buys a sled that is perhaps 4 years old should be made to feel unwelcome by charging them full price to ride those trails. Doesn't really seem to make sense. New to the sport doesn't mean a 15 year old sled. When I was new to the sport I wanted reliability so I never would have bought something 15+ years old.

 

I don't blame the people who buy the classic permit for anything. I blame the OFSC for having the underpriced classic permit. If there was one for the true antique sled that may be a different matter.

[GPK Racing]

My point is that you are all complain about the price for a classic permit and being disrespectful to people who are using the classic permits. Is it there fault the ofsc decided on a lower price for the permit? 

If you don't see the level of disrespect being shown in how people are reacting to the people using the classic permit the I am wasting my time trying to get my point across obviously so I won't bother commenting further.

Obviously you guys are convinced you are right and I will never change your minds anyway so why bother.

[02Sled]

My point is that you are all complain about the price for a classic permit and being disrespectful to people who are using the classic permits. Is it there fault the ofsc decided on a lower price for the permit? 

If you don't see the level of disrespect being shown in how people are reacting to the people using the classic permit the I am wasting my time trying to get my point across obviously so I won't bother commenting further.

Obviously you guys are convinced you are right and I will never change your minds anyway so why bother.

I have nothing against the people that buy the classic permit and don't treat them any differently than I would anyone else. I just believe that they are getting a discount that we can't afford. Nobody can prove that it generates more sleds on the trails that wouldn't be otherwise  (gathering metrics is a challenge at best) and nobody seems to have produced any metrics to show it is a positive situation.

[Spiderman]

i dont see a problem with the classic permit, its revenue that was made that the ofsc didnt have before. iI know a few people that have the classic permit and have used the trails 2-3 times, they cant afford newer sleds

its not the old iron that wrecks the trails, its the new high hp sleds with 1 1/4 tracks or larger that tear them up

 

 

you're drunk if you believe that. It took money off the snow. There is no data to back it's success or failure one way or the other, but many of those sleds on Classics were on full paying prior. I doubt there is enough "new" ones out there to make up all the sleds, year after year, that were full paying, and now riding on Classics.

 

Get rid of it!

[bbakernbay]

I agree completely with that.

The OFSC needs to reconsider whether their 2 major communications and lobbying staff are effective.

I don't think they are producing the goods for various reasons.

The Feds and Province have not provided much assistance to snowmobiling in Ontario.

Given the fuel taxes, HST contributed by Snowmobilers, our rate of return is abysmal.

We haven't got anything useful on a Trail Permit Enforcement which should be one of the easier bones to throw our way.

Is The Intepid Snowmobiler a worthwhile expenditure by the OFSC when he also gets paid to promote Quebec Tourism, NB Tourism and Western snowmobiling as well as SkiDoo?

I would be interested in opinions if I am in error or whether others agree.

There is a Lobbyist we have in addition to Intrepid Snowmobiler but his name escapes me at the moment.

[Yukon]

I agree completely with that.

The OFSC needs to reconsider whether their 2 major communications and lobbying staff are effective.

I don't think they are producing the goods for various reasons.

The Feds and Province have not provided much assistance to snowmobiling in Ontario.

Given the fuel taxes, HST contributed by Snowmobilers, our rate of return is abysmal.

We haven't got anything useful on a Trail Permit Enforcement which should be one of the easier bones to throw our way.

Is The Intepid Snowmobiler a worthwhile expenditure by the OFSC when he also gets paid to promote Quebec Tourism, NB Tourism and Western snowmobiling as well as SkiDoo?

I would be interested in opinions if I am in error or whether others agree.

There is a Lobbyist we have in addition to Intrepid Snowmobiler but his name escapes me at the moment.

Tim West

[SlowTouringGuy]

I agree completely with that.

The OFSC needs to reconsider whether their 2 major communications and lobbying staff are effective.

I don't think they are producing the goods for various reasons.

The Feds and Province have not provided much assistance to snowmobiling in Ontario.

Given the fuel taxes, HST contributed by Snowmobilers, our rate of return is abysmal.

We haven't got anything useful on a Trail Permit Enforcement which should be one of the easier bones to throw our way.

Is The Intepid Snowmobiler a worthwhile expenditure by the OFSC when he also gets paid to promote Quebec Tourism, NB Tourism and Western snowmobiling as well as SkiDoo?

I would be interested in opinions if I am in error or whether others agree.

There is a Lobbyist we have in addition to Intrepid Snowmobiler but his name escapes me at the moment.

 

 

Ted West.  And he is busy.  It is difficult to tell if he is feathering his own pockets or simply in a conflict of interest.  Neither may be true but Optics and Perception (which is sometimes more important than reality) point to one of those "Watergate, I didn't have sex with that woman, Senate Scandal" newsworthy items. 

[SlowTouringGuy]

Thanks Yukon.  Correction..............Tim West.  

[Diceman]

I have a classic pass for my 71 and 77 Sno Jets.....I pay the classic price for passes but would not pay full price for them....everyone always says its the cheapest part of sleddind( pass price) but thats for us to decide...we can all justify spending money on whats important to the individual....some think nothing of dropping a couple hundred bucks for a night out while others would never think of doing that even though they have the money....I do agree that a 15 year old sled should not be a classic...hard to see a 04 viper in a few years being a classic....I would say pre 1985........

 

secondly someone also posted about stopping the free weekend.....totally disagree on that...I personally know a few guys who have taken their kids, buddies out on there second sleds and those guys are now sled owners and permit buyers and new volunteers for their clubs..the issue is $15000 for a new sled, not a a cheap pass....