Wildbill Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 I have seen posts driven into the ground on both sides of a bridge to allow only 5' or less (?) pass through. This seems fine to me. Gated clear off - not so much. The gates that I have seen* would have been up on Crown Land, or .. it seems like one was on the gas line? All up north anyway... * ...well, I did have a run-in with one farmer with a gate on his land.... as it was on the mapped road, but that was a really strange situation. Kind'a sucks to find a gate closed on your way OUT of the bush after dark! ??? (No bridge involved here.) . As you said it was his land that makes it his right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 LOL! . Moose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ox Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 As you said it was his land that makes it his right. It was accrost the logging road that ran through his farm. Apparently there was another option, but it wasn't on my map. I followed a logging truck in, so I was quite surprised to find a closed gate on the way back out after dark. Like I said - it was a really strange ordeal. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Why not just go talk to the landowner? See if there is an issue or if you frequent that area, he might give you access or a key for the gate. I've seen that before. Sometimes some of these landowners just want to sit and talk to somebody that respects their land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwilburn Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I can see both sides of the ATV discussion... Obviously I ride ATV as well, but no where near as much as I ride sleds (and look where I live!). If you really love sledding, I would recommend against "joining forces" with the ATV's for several reasons. 1. Private landowners typically will not allow them because of the destruction they are capable of 2. Even when they stay on trails, they will still tear them up 3. Once they (ATVs) are part of the equation, you loose the argument of "never leave a mark on the land" Our state has closed several ORV (Off Road Vehicle) trails this past year because of the environmental impact. A small section of our tiny little snowmobile trail permits ORV's because it was an old gravel roadbed at one time. This section is nearly un-ridable with sleds in the winter. Huge rocks exposed, water run-off across the trail. All because of the ORV use. In fact, we had 4 feet of snowcover several years ago - this section of trail STILL had huge crevasses across it from the run-off. It takes a lot more resources to maintain dual-use trails when used by ORV's... Just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 ATVs will be the death of our trails. A few of my sled buddies ride in the summer. The respect they have for the sled trails goes out the window come summer time. It's like your not cool or something as a rider if you don't come back with your machine coated with an inch of mud. There is a perfectly good rail bed that runs, from Carrying Place, in to Trenton north out along the Trenton River to the south end of E106. This trail at one time linked Prince Edward County to the rest of the OFSC system. About 10 years ago locals got it shutdown because of ATVs in the summer time. Since then the City has installed 12inch round metal post at all the road crossings to stop selds and ATVs from using it. Even a 3km stretch where there isn't a house anywhere around, that leads to a good parking area with a gas station across the street is closed. All because ATVs dug it up and would go flying pass people walking in the summer time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkronOrange Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 I think the OFSC needs to decide what is important. Allowing the clubs to govern and manage their own respective district doesn't seem to be working, seems obvious - in that scenario; only the strong survive. Why not completely disband the OFSC and allow each district, each club, manage themselves? It would seem to me that the OFSC shoud be more interested in the big picture, all of Ontario, focusing on the integrity of the system. If it means considering ATV's onto the trails or redistribution of funds, it should be the responsibility of the highest governing entity to make those decisions. Recently, as all of you know, we have seen a reduction in the miles of trails available for us to ride. We have also seen no intervention from the governing body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 ATVs will be the death of our trails. A few of my sled buddies ride in the summer. The respect they have for the sled trails goes out the window come summer time. It's like your not cool or something as a rider if you don't come back with your machine coated with an inch of mud. There is a perfectly good rail bed that runs, from Carrying Place, in to Trenton north out along the Trenton River to the south end of E106. This trail at one time linked Prince Edward County to the rest of the OFSC system. About 10 years ago locals got it shutdown because of ATVs in the summer time. Since then the City has installed 12inch round metal post at all the road crossings to stop selds and ATVs from using it. Even a 3km stretch where there isn't a house anywhere around, that leads to a good parking area with a gas station across the street is closed. All because ATVs dug it up and would go flying pass people walking in the summer time. I have to disagree. I ride both ATV and sled and much enjoy sledding over ATVing. Having said that..in several market's ATV's are now outselling sleds anywhere from 3:1 to 6:1. Those are considerable statistics. Typically an ATV is cheaper to enter the market on. There is less in the way of specialized clothing to buy, the riding season is ten months of the year compared to maybe three on a sled..if you are lucky! Plus ATV's have many other useful purposes, such as hunting, fishing, utility, etc. If we keep having lackluster Winters like we have had the ATV market will soar. I am a director for both local snowmobile and ATV clubs and I can tell you that while the snowmobile industry is old and deep seated, it is not growing, while the ATV club is growing each year. The HCSA maintains roughly 350 Km's of trails while the HATVA operates 1700 Km's of signed, and insured trails. I will admit that this is the exception rather than the norm. Organized ATVing is very much still in it's youth across the Province, I say youth as opposed to infancy as there are many good clubs around and it is not new to be organized. The sport is growing and the opportunity for both types of clubs to work together is now. To further develop trail networks, save problem areas, promote, fundraise and co exist. To say ATV's will be the death of our trails is a broad statement! What have you to back this up? What about those sledders with blatant disregard for closed trails, those who off trail ride on private property, strew beer cans and belts..HATVA each Spring retrieves a full trailer load of this crap off the rail trail in Haliburton. All accumulated over the Winter riding season. Locally here HATVA as an example was instrumental in keeping the rail trail open for powersports as the naturalists and tree huggers wanted it to become a green belt for turtle watching! A good ATV club promotes trail stewardship, educates, repairs trails, develops trails, works with the local snowmobile clubs, and has a high degree or community presence to promote proper riding. The areas where trails get ruined or involve issues typically are where there are no organized ATV clubs. This is where you have trespassing issues, renegade riders, people pissing off landowners and the list goes on. Don't kid yourself...it's not just ATV traffic either..there are a lot of jeepsters running around too! These guys cause major, major damage. All I ask is that people give the sport of ATVing a chance to grow properly. For clubs to develop, to foster partnerships where they can and to develop their own trails and work with area sled cubs where and if trails are shared. There was once a time when the sport of organized snowmobiling was new and faced many problems, dilemmas and perils and pitfalls too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I think the OFSC needs to decide what is important. Allowing the clubs to govern and manage their own respective district doesn't seem to be working, seems obvious - in that scenario; only the strong survive. Why not completely disband the OFSC and allow each district, each club, manage themselves? It would seem to me that the OFSC shoud be more interested in the big picture, all of Ontario, focusing on the integrity of the system. If it means considering ATV's onto the trails or redistribution of funds, it should be the responsibility of the highest governing entity to make those decisions. Recently, as all of you know, we have seen a reduction in the miles of trails available for us to ride. We have also seen no intervention from the governing body. I don't quite understand your statement about trail loss. There's still 34,000 KM of trail in the province to ride. There just isn't as many reserved for you and your buddys from the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I think the OFSC needs to decide what is important. Allowing the clubs to govern and manage their own respective district doesn't seem to be working, seems obvious - in that scenario; only the strong survive. Why not completely disband the OFSC and allow each district, each club, manage themselves? It would seem to me that the OFSC shoud be more interested in the big picture, all of Ontario, focusing on the integrity of the system. If it means considering ATV's onto the trails or redistribution of funds, it should be the responsibility of the highest governing entity to make those decisions. Recently, as all of you know, we have seen a reduction in the miles of trails available for us to ride. We have also seen no intervention from the governing body. I am confused, can u tell me, who exactly is the OFSC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucking Pig Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I don't quite understand your statement about trail loss. There's still 34,000 KM of trail in the province to ride. There just isn't as many reserved for you and your buddys from the US. What don't you understand about there being trail loss? Pretty much an entire district has gone. That sounds like trail loss to me. That's pretty much what this whole thread has been about. As for your last statement. Wasn't that the whole point of the "Province Wide System"? To promote touring sledders, like Akron and "his buddies from the US"? They like to ride the more remote areas, like D 16, and is willing to pay for that. I don't think we should be sneering at folks who want to bring their hard earned cash into our province. I think his point is that, he feels the OFSC, as the highest organizing body, should be looking at a more Province-wide approach. Wildman... Perhaps your question is the answer to the whole probem? Maybe there is no real Province-wide entity making sure the whole thing keeps going. Just local interests looking after their own patch? BP76Mr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 That district is gone as it was...the trails are still there and will likely be merged with the other surrounding districts. They are not "lost". and.. We should always be embracing those from the US who want to come here and spend $$. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white dragon Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 What don't you understand about there being trail loss? Pretty much an entire district has gone. That sounds like trail loss to me. That's pretty much what this whole thread has been about. As for your last statement. Wasn't that the whole point of the "Province Wide System"? To promote touring sledders, like Akron and "his buddies from the US"? They like to ride the more remote areas, like D 16, and is willing to pay for that. I don't think we should be sneering at folks who want to bring their hard earned cash into our province. I think his point is that, he feels the OFSC, as the highest organizing body, should be looking at a more Province-wide approach. Wildman... Perhaps your question is the answer to the whole probem? Maybe there is no real Province-wide entity making sure the whole thing keeps going. Just local interests looking after their own patch? BP76Mr agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC+YA Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 What don't you understand about there being trail loss? Pretty much an entire district has gone. That sounds like trail loss to me. That's pretty much what this whole thread has been about. As for your last statement. Wasn't that the whole point of the "Province Wide System"? To promote touring sledders, like Akron and "his buddies from the US"? They like to ride the more remote areas, like D 16, and is willing to pay for that. I don't think we should be sneering at folks who want to bring their hard earned cash into our province. I think his point is that, he feels the OFSC, as the highest organizing body, should be looking at a more Province-wide approach. Wildman... Perhaps your question is the answer to the whole probem? Maybe there is no real Province-wide entity making sure the whole thing keeps going. Just local interests looking after their own patch? BP76Mr Thanks BP for putting this out there. You said it well! As one of those guys from the US, I thought that the OFSC sounded like it was run and controlled by the Province. I have learned that it is not the governmental agency that I once thought it to be and that the trails are not guaranteed to exist like the roads. I am so very grateful for the volunteers who have put the energy into keeping it going as the number of users dropped off ! I sometimes feel that the trails are almost my private wonderland and I have wanted to see more riders just to keep the economics of these trails possible. The reason that services are going away is so obvious when you ride for 3 full days and contact less than 20 other machines on the trails. At the same time, it must be understood that the reason we drive from lower Michigan every week and spend lots of $ doing it, is because Ontario has a fantastic CONNECTED network of trails. I have averaged over 30 nights per season spent while trail riding Ontario trails for the last 10 years. One season I bought 8 full season trail passes (changed machines mid-season) and always ride with others and or family. I loved riding District 16 because it was very remote. I also miss Halfway Haven, but if the connectivity is further reduced, I may go back to the UP more often, or take less trips and longer ones to Quebec and out west. I try to suport the system, although it is a drop in the bucket. If I lived closer, I would be helping more that just adopting a few miles of trail and using my saw on the worst branches or stopping to push rocks off as I started doing a couple years back. I take pride in this system and feel that I am a small part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 What don't you understand about there being trail loss? Pretty much an entire district has gone. That sounds like trail loss to me. That's pretty much what this whole thread has been about. As for your last statement. Wasn't that the whole point of the "Province Wide System"? To promote touring sledders, like Akron and "his buddies from the US"? They like to ride the more remote areas, like D 16, and is willing to pay for that. I don't think we should be sneering at folks who want to bring their hard earned cash into our province. I think his point is that, he feels the OFSC, as the highest organizing body, should be looking at a more Province-wide approach. Wildman... Perhaps your question is the answer to the whole probem? Maybe there is no real Province-wide entity making sure the whole thing keeps going. Just local interests looking after their own patch? BP76Mr I understand the system very well, I asked the question so people think about it for a minute. I have posted this before, ofsc is exactly what it is, a federation. It is not a business. It does not operate like a business. People assume it is a business and they expect to be treated like they purchased something from a business. The truth of the matter is, if there where people (enough) operating snowmobile clubs in d16, they would not have been axed. There is criteria to meet to be able to be apart of the ofsc, d16 didn't meet it. It was not all about money,it is man power. My club has over 800 members, roughly 30 people are involved, about 6 hold all the important roles and do all the mandatory paper work......it is a huge undertaking. I can see why d16 folded, there is so much paperwork and deadlines to meet to keep the insurance company and mto happy that it is not feasible for a club of 2,3 er 4 people to operate. If anyone is looking for someone to blame, go seek out the mother %$#@%^ 's that sued the ofsc and made the insurance premium so high that it is nearly impossible to operate the federation, quit blaming all the people that volunteer and run the clubs, as they are most definitely the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs bye the way BP, this is by no means directed at u, I just used ur quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanky Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I understand the system very well, I asked the question so people think about it for a minute. I have posted this before, ofsc is exactly what it is, a federation. It is not a business. It does not operate like a business. People assume it is a business and they expect to be treated like they purchased something from a business. The truth of the matter is, if there where people (enough) operating snowmobile clubs in d16, they would not have been axed. There is criteria to meet to be able to be apart of the ofsc, d16 didn't meet it. It was not all about money,it is man power. My club has over 800 members, roughly 30 people are involved, about 6 hold all the important roles and do all the mandatory paper work......it is a huge undertaking. I can see why d16 folded, there is so much paperwork and deadlines to meet to keep the insurance company and mto happy that it is not feasible for a club of 2,3 er 4 people to operate. If anyone is looking for someone to blame, go seek out the mother %$#@%^ 's that sued the ofsc and made the insurance premium so high that it is nearly impossible to operate the federation, quit blaming all the people that volunteer and run the clubs, as they are most definitely the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs bye the way BP, this is by no means directed at u, I just used ur quote Very very well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couchrocket500 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I think lawsuits over such things are actually more prevalent in Canada than in the US anymore. When we signed for the HMC trails, we basically signed away ANY right to sue anyone. Over the past 10 years or so, many laws have been passed protecting landowners and non-profit organizations from such lawsuits. I mean this kinda stuff is right up there with filing a lawsuit against someone who broke your ribs giving you CPR (that happened in the U.S. years ago). As for wildfires with the ATVs.... not typically a concern. Most of the time the forests where the HMC trails are (and even where I live) are way too green to burn. The Appalachian Mtn range usually gets enough rain to keep that danger to a bare minmum (early spring and fall can be bad). BTW - I have full coverage on my 2012 F800 with a $250 deductable for about $220 per year. That includes $500,000 of liability insurance along with collision. Maybe time for us as a group to lobby for similar protection for Not for Profit organizations in Ontario from such nonsense litigations. Little doubt ATV clubs will face similar problems we are if they haven’t already but on the plus side it wouldn’t surprise me to see another provincial election soon. So it could be a good time to embark on such a cause. Where to start though is beyond anything I’ve experienced. Any thoughts…..? Anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 What don't you understand about there being trail loss? Pretty much an entire district has gone. That sounds like trail loss to me. That's pretty much what this whole thread has been about. As for your last statement. Wasn't that the whole point of the "Province Wide System"? To promote touring sledders, like Akron and "his buddies from the US"? They like to ride the more remote areas, like D 16, and is willing to pay for that. I don't think we should be sneering at folks who want to bring their hard earned cash into our province. I think his point is that, he feels the OFSC, as the highest organizing body, should be looking at a more Province-wide approach. Wildman... Perhaps your question is the answer to the whole probem? Maybe there is no real Province-wide entity making sure the whole thing keeps going. Just local interests looking after their own patch? BP76Mr A whole district is gone because there are no people there buying permits. You can't expect the rest of the province to keep sending money up there to keep trails open for a few US riders. That was my point. Without permit buyers you can't have trails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 The OFSC needs to organize strong lobby now...not in a year or two..and not by a volunteer..god bless them. It takes a lot to be successful at lobbying the Government for anything whatsoever, and it takes dollars. My fear is that without a definitive course of action by the time a lobby effort rises into swing..it will be too late for the next election now. In reality..this should have been done over a year ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrafrozen Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I heard from a reliable source that the permit scheme for next year will include a reduced cost permit available for a limited zone. The province will be divided up somehow and all you can ride with this cheaper permit is that particular zone. New to this forum but not new to forums. Hope this one keeps me coming back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couchrocket500 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 The OFSC needs to organize strong lobby now...not in a year or two..and not by a volunteer..god bless them. It takes a lot to be successful at lobbying the Government for anything whatsoever, and it takes dollars. My fear is that without a definitive course of action by the time a lobby effort rises into swing..it will be too late for the next election now. In reality..this should have been done over a year ago. I agree Fred. Not sure how anyone could be against protection from lawsuits for landowners and clubs, certainly considering “use at your own risk” permits are signed by sledders themselves and signs are posted everywhere on the trails. By law, we all carry our own insurance. Perhaps it would take just one MPP to present a private member’s bill to open up the discussion and we could follow up chasing our own MPP’s to support the bill. Heard the same thing Utrafrozen, not sure if it’s carved in stone though. I’m sure someone will pipe up and explain. Welcome to OC… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I heard from a reliable source that the permit scheme for next year will include a reduced cost permit available for a limited zone. The province will be divided up somehow and all you can ride with this cheaper permit is that particular zone. New to this forum but not new to forums. Hope this one keeps me coming back! First off, welcome to the forum. There is a lot of information and discussion here and we hope you come back often. There is a proposal that was presented at the AGM to restructure our permits. The proposal is still in the early stages but one part is to provide regional permits at a reduced cost. You might want to check out this thread about the AGM http://ontarioconditions.com/forums/index.php?/topic/10190-ofsc-agm-who-is-going/page__st__75 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Ride with bolt cutters. You really are ridiculous no matter where you go. If the landowner doesn't want you on their property what gives you the right to cut the lock and tresspass on their property. A trail was lost after many years of snowmobiliing due to ATV riders cutting the locks on the gate. The land owner liked having the sled trail since it gave him and his family a nice trail to walk in the summer on THEIR property. Then they had to start getting out of the way of tresspassing ATV's. They tell the riders they are tresspassing and they come back with no we're not. We're on the trail and some jerk keeps locking the gate. He says that's me, that's my gate and my lock. Get off my property. The same people keep coming back. End result. No more snowmobile trail. Instead of a gate a fence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 We have the same problem some people have no respect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Same issue here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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