Trails for 2012/2013 Season

[The Groomer Guy]

That's sad news about D16, which I unfortunatley predicted last winter. As I've said before, it is very hard for the locals up here to justify $200 + for a permit that lets you on a trail that only goes away from where you live. Where I live in Nipigon, the trails were all linear. It was not possible to do a nice loop ride that didn't take 3 - 5 days, so our only option would be to ride a couple hours one way, then turn around and go home on the same trail. Ok once or twice but pretty boring pretty quick. We quite nturally moved on to crossovers and made our own fun running unplowed logging roads, hydro ROW's & pipeline corridors. Buying permits to use the trails occasionally and to access the logging roads was ok for most of my buds when the price was $150 or less, but once it got past that, we couldn't justify the cost. Remember, its mostly Crown Land up here, so we're not tresspassing. Personally, I always thought that the tourism buisnesses should have contributed more to the trails, as they are the major benificiaries of the touring riders, but they will tell you that they can't afford it either. The other death knell for D16 was the tanking of our economy with the collapse of the forest industry. Even though I haven't used the trail system for years, and I predicted this collapse, it saddens me that it's gone. RIP D16!

Bucking Pig

BINGO!!!!! you got that right!!!!

Thats what we are facing here.

NO more D 16 our trail to white River is closed..... going to be even harder to sell permits now, that was one trail the locals like to take, the only club ride we did last winter was on that trail. how do you sell permits with no loops? very boring to go in a strait line for a few hours then come back..... like you said.... fun for a few times then u give up.

[skidooboy]

glad to see you back Luc, missed your posts. im not a facebook guy but, lynne keeps tabs on you. (congrats, by the way).

the white river closure will effect you some but, now you can utilize more resources with gord, and russ in wawa to get trail 7 and 3 linked again. your two communities combined have more day loop posibilities than some entire districts. this is a GOOD THING for BOTH communities. advertizing and bragging about these loops are how you get people back to see you.

Dub, to wawa via iris lake to the magpie, to the badlands to wawa lake, trail 3 to trail 7 back to dub on D.

F to missanabi, down dog lake to manitouwak, to hawk, to wawa lake, back to magpie, and the D or iris lake back to dub

F to D, to hawk pick up the firesands road, down wawa lake, across the badlands, trail 3 then trail 7 (or magpie).

you can reverse these and double the amount of routes, plus there are many more short cuts, and loop start and stops to add to this. i think i had a thread on here last year than had about 7-8 or more different wawa/dub loop routes for "day rides"

i would love to see wawa and dub become a team (as they have in the past) and become a MAJOR day ride destination. Ski

[Canuck]

Wow.

Bucking Pig - never thought how those linear routes affected you. Sure, it would be boring travelling a linear route and back along the same trail. It's interesting that you mention the $150 threshold.

Luc - very sorry that the one day permit did not pass. As you said, it would've benefited your area greatly. Crazy question - how hard would it be for OFSC to maintain parts of District 16? Send Groomers (paid operators) through, similar to snowplows. Remove any costs associated with Clubs and Districts and maintain a TOP type trail for those still interested in getting from point A to B in a multi-day Northern Loop. Once we loose some trails, they'll be tough to get back. I'm not familiar with the terrain, early season prep work, etc. but if the 'club' model is not working, work towards a different solution.

Skidooboy - it's great to read your positive spin on this matter.

[skidooboy]

with the "superior loop challenge" now 50% ungroomed... it may be time to set up a 2 day "wilderness race". individual, and team events. wawa to dub, to hornepayne, manditory over night stay in manitouwadge. final day mani to wawa. groomed, to ungroomed, back to groomed for the finish. check points, timed event. might be a good way to bring money and attention to the area. get tv coverage, corporate sponsors, get people excited about sledding, and the area. food for thought.... the NORTH race (northern ontario race to home) wawa to wawa. or northern ontario, race through heaven.

we always call it god's country so, why not? Ski

[Canuck]

... why not?

Can STG be in the 'other' group?

[Fred Quimby]

This is where the OFSC needs to really step and do something. Otherwise the end will be near for others I am afraid and that is sad when guys like Luc have put so much into their clubs!

It's not just in the lap of the OFSC either. The Province and tourism boards need to jump on board and do something unique and specific to the area. I respect that the OFSC is putting in place some changes that will hopefully help down the road, but I fear that the damage that is done already may be irreversible.

What about setting up something with ATV's? Now before guys jump all over me about ATV damage on trails..there is some strength in numbers. If there was a cooperative effort to expand trails that involved loops and such with ATV's in the Summer and sleds in the Winter, would that not be a win win? There is Provincial grant money available through infrastructure Ontario for trail improvements and upgrades. I would think that development of something like this would be a good fit. If ATV's can coexist in Quebec with Sleds..then they can here too. We are just not quite there yet.

Look at what West Virginia did with the Hatfield Mc Coy trails. They developed over 500 miles of trails that travel through diverse landscapes through ATV friendly towns. Nine counties share the trail system and benefit hugely from the economic impact. These were areas that were dying a slow death too at one time. Now people come from all over north america to visit these trails and spend millions of dollars there annually!

Imagine doing a project like this up north? ATV in the Summer with guided tours, hunting in the Fall, fishing expeditions and then in the WInter some spectacular loops on some amazing trails seeing some of the nicest country in Ontraio.

[AkronOrange]

These trail closing are terrible for our sport and those small communities that benefit from our patronage. We should have seen this coming and it will continue. The only reason many of the trails have been open as long as they have can only be because of the few volunteers and supporters that have not given up. Imagine what would happen to the trails in their associated districts without people like Luke and those that pulled together last season to open a new "C" trail. Last year, we could ride to Hillsport and Longlac (I'm glad I did), we used to be able to get to Longlac from Hearst, we used to be able to ride to Manitouwadge and Marathon, we can't ride to any of those areas at all anymore.

I think it's probably too late to change the direction, the poor, great people in the northern communities simply do not have the resources themselves to keep the trails open the way the funding is currently structured and it doesn't seem that anyone in power has the "stones" to change it. The districts with the money and the people have taken a "sucks to be you" attitude and the OFCS has gone into hiding, afraid to upset anyone.

I'm not an economist and I'm not clarvoiant, but I don't see the economy improving in northern Ontario but I do see people and places like Luke, 3 Bears, Auld Reekie, and the Sportsman ultimately ending up like the those at Halfway Haven, Klotz Lake and in Hillsport.

[gwilburn]

This is where the OFSC needs to really step and do something. Otherwise the end will be near for others I am afraid and that is sad when guys like Luc have put so much into their clubs!

It's not just in the lap of the OFSC either. The Province and tourism boards need to jump on board and do something unique and specific to the area. I respect that the OFSC is putting in place some changes that will hopefully help down the road, but I fear that the damage that is done already may be irreversible.

What about setting up something with ATV's? Now before guys jump all over me about ATV damage on trails..there is some strength in numbers. If there was a cooperative effort to expand trails that involved loops and such with ATV's in the Summer and sleds in the Winter, would that not be a win win? There is Provincial grant money available through infrastructure Ontario for trail improvements and upgrades. I would think that development of something like this would be a good fit. If ATV's can coexist in Quebec with Sleds..then they can here too. We are just not quite there yet.

Look at what West Virginia did with the Hatfield Mc Coy trails. They developed over 500 miles of trails that travel through diverse landscapes through ATV friendly towns. Nine counties share the trail system and benefit hugely from the economic impact. These were areas that were dying a slow death too at one time. Now people come from all over north america to visit these trails and spend millions of dollars there annually!

Imagine doing a project like this up north? ATV in the Summer with guided tours, hunting in the Fall, fishing expeditions and then in the WInter some spectacular loops on some amazing trails seeing some of the nicest country in Ontraio.

Visited the HMC trails for the first time this past summer - not nearly as fun as snowmobiling... but fun nonetheless.. Incidentally, many trails cross private land. Groomer = Dozer. Trail Pass?? $50 for the PERSON per year (not issued to machine). That's a far cry from the $250 charged by Ontario.

Their trail system is GROWING, not shrinking... even though ATV sales have dipped considerably the past few years.

AND I totally agree with the business helping out... those that benefit from the snowmobilers need to invest in keeping them coming back. If you search some of my posts... I think I made these very statements over 2 years ago.

If the OFSC doesn't wake up and LOWER the permit prices, the decline of the OFSC trail system will continue. They need to lower the prices, trim the regulations, and trim the budgets... just like the rest of the modern world has been doing since 2008

[Wildbill]

Visited the HMC trails for the first time this past summer - not nearly as fun as snowmobiling... but fun nonetheless.. Incidentally, many trails cross private land. Groomer = Dozer. Trail Pass?? $50 for the PERSON per year (not issued to machine). That's a far cry from the $250 charged by Ontario.

Their trail system is GROWING, not shrinking... even though ATV sales have dipped considerably the past few years.

AND I totally agree with the business helping out... those that benefit from the snowmobilers need to invest in keeping them coming back. If you search some of my posts... I think I made these very statements over 2 years ago.

If the OFSC doesn't wake up and LOWER the permit prices, the decline of the OFSC trail system will continue. They need to lower the prices, trim the regulations, and trim the budgets... just like the rest of the modern world has been doing since 2008

and the lawsuits that take so much off of the trail every year in insurance premiums etc how does that get handled? The OFSC and member clubs arenot "fat" to start with so cutting comes from either grooming or accountability that keeps us insurable. . I wish these atv groups luck but the reality is that they are only a few lawsuits from the same issues that we face.

There are proposals coming forward however much has to fall into placeor they will not work.

Reality is that the elephant in the room is the liability insurance

[Fred Quimby]

You are right WB...lawsuits and insurance is killing a lot of things. Take a look around..there are more and more lawyers these days that specialize in accident benefit claims than ever before! It's almost as bad as in the U.S. Where the first cal after 911 in an emergency is to a disability lawyer.

Our local ATV club (HATVA) carries similar insurance to the OFSC for our trails and to cover our landowners. We also obtain LUP's much the same as the OFSC document. Having said that, there are a lot of clubs out there that are nowhere near that level and are in a very precarious place.

I still maintain though that a cooperative effort in a lot of areas is the key to both powersports groups staying alive down the road. Otherwise sledding will be on a much smaller scale, touring opportunities will be reduced and clubs will slowly die off. I'd hate to see that. I'm not talking all in one ATV/ snowmobile clubs..but strength in numbers as far as some projects and cooperative trail development and tourism initiatives is doable.

[Panther340]

Although forest fire risk is not a problem in winter for OFSC trails , I suspect that liability of forest fires in summer with ATV trails going thru the many valuable logged townships that can't risk forest fires would be a insurance problem soon highlighted by the private township landowners or even the crown land townships where logging rights have been given . With the July droughts that seem to be more and more present every year, I suspect ATV trails liability insurance would be a problem soon. Once again we know that the problem summer riders disgarding cigarettes or with bad muffler spark arrestors would not be paying registered ones , it will be the yahoos that you cannot control.

Good news is that signs that logging will be picking up this winter with pulp prices going up, so communitites like Dubreilville and Wawa should start having some of their citizens working in logging again and more of them local being able to afford the winter sports again.

[gwilburn]

I think lawsuits over such things are actually more prevalent in Canada than in the US anymore. When we signed for the HMC trails, we basically signed away ANY right to sue anyone. Over the past 10 years or so, many laws have been passed protecting landowners and non-profit organizations from such lawsuits. I mean this kinda stuff is right up there with filing a lawsuit against someone who broke your ribs giving you CPR (that happened in the U.S. years ago).

As for wildfires with the ATVs.... not typically a concern. Most of the time the forests where the HMC trails are (and even where I live) are way too green to burn. The Appalachian Mtn range usually gets enough rain to keep that danger to a bare minmum (early spring and fall can be bad).

BTW - I have full coverage on my 2012 F800 with a $250 deductable for about $220 per year. That includes $500,000 of liability insurance along with collision.

[Fred Quimby]

I just think the HMC trail system is a great example of a money maker for an area. I have read lot's about people who regularly make the trip there, and will again and again. I think it could be done up north in cooperation with the sled clubs to develop shared trails that work for everyone. Now I realize the HMC system does not involve sleds, but it is an example of a well developed network of trails. If Quebec can do it. So can Ontario.

[gwilburn]

I just think the HMC trail system is a great example of a money maker for an area. I have read lot's about people who regularly make the trip there, and will again and again. I think it could be done up north in cooperation with the sled clubs to develop shared trails that work for everyone. Now I realize the HMC system does not involve sleds, but it is an example of a well developed network of trails. If Quebec can do it. So can Ontario.

It's not nearly as well devloped and organized as sled trails in Canada, Michigan, etc. It's made to look that way on TV.

[Fred Quimby]

Things always look better on TV and in magazines. It's just an idea that might work for the Northern Ontario area. I have also heard some awesome things about Michigan too.

My simple point is that if Quebec can develop sled and ATV trails share them in some places and co-exist then why can't Ontario? It's money in.

[sledjunk]

I suspect that there is a huge provincial involvement in supporting the trails (both ATV and sled) in Quebec.

[Fred Quimby]

You are probably correct sledjunk but Ontario will need to take a hard look at investing in tourism options for the near north and north as natural resources dry up or prove too costly and close up. Otherwise..Ontario will miss the boat entirely on a sport that is growing in ATVing and a chance to keep a sport alive in sledding.

[Ox]

Things always look better on TV and in magazines. It's just an idea that might work for the Northern Ontario area. I have also heard some awesome things about Michigan too.

My simple point is that if Quebec can develop sled and ATV trails share them in some places and co-exist then why can't Ontario? It's money in.

This is one of my complaints.

There are several bridges that have gone up in the last 15+ yrs for sledding, and then they gate them off in the summer.

???

They tell me that sledding, and particularly "ABC Sledding Club" Or "The OFSC" pd for that bridge.

Now I understand making it so's a pick'm up truck can't wiggle through, but an ATV?

The bloody thing is made to carry a groomer for petey's sakes!

IMO - much the same people ride those same trails on ATV's as they doo sleds. You're not getting all THAT much differ'nt people.

I have seen this before in areas further N.

I can't think exactly where anymore? Been too long now...

The sleds are capitalizing on the lumber industry, is it so bad to hand me down too?

Is the bridge gunna rust and rott faster if a wheeled vee hickle crosses it?

.

[Fred Quimby]

Some clubs are having to gate off their bridges for a few reasons.

• some are just on private property where the landowner had requested a gate to alleviate trespassers in non Winter months - they don't want ATv traffic either
  
• many bridges are getting wrecked by jeeps and SUV type vehicles that are ruining them...Yes, they are designed to hold a groomer and then some..but not four or five jeeps driving convoy style end to end as they tend to travel
  
• with the cost of bridge replacement soaring..a gate is a cheaper option. I can't speak for all clubs but I know the HCSA owns most if not all it's bridges and often it is "grant" money from the OFSC that pays for reconstruction
  
• It's really not to keep the ATV's off but Jeeps and such off..they do wreck the bridges..especially the older wood truss ones
  

[zoso]

This is one of my complaints.

There are several bridges that have gone up in the last 15+ yrs for sledding, and then they gate them off in the summer.

???

They tell me that sledding, and particularly "ABC Sledding Club" Or "The OFSC" pd for that bridge.

Now I understand making it so's a pick'm up truck can't wiggle through, but an ATV?

The bloody thing is made to carry a groomer for petey's sakes!

IMO - much the same people ride those same trails on ATV's as they doo sleds. You're not getting all THAT much differ'nt people.

I have seen this before in areas further N.

I can't think exactly where anymore? Been too long now...

The sleds are capitalizing on the lumber industry, is it so bad to hand me down too?

Is the bridge gunna rust and rott faster if a wheeled vee hickle crosses it?

.

Ride with bolt cutters.

[FreezerBurnt]

Quads already use the logging roads and pipelines, why would they want to pay???

S.Ont are much different

Also here in Manitoba ATV were banned a few weeks this summer due to fire restrictions, we had a very dry spring/summer

IMO people like local loops vs drive thru trails as BP mentioned but those are not feasible $$$$ wise vs the "top" trails, the tourist like the drive thru trails, locals not so much

[Ox]

Some clubs are having to gate off their bridges for a few reasons.

• some are just on private property where the landowner had requested a gate to alleviate trespassers in non Winter months - they don't want ATv traffic either
  
• many bridges are getting wrecked by jeeps and SUV type vehicles that are ruining them...Yes, they are designed to hold a groomer and then some..but not four or five jeeps driving convoy style end to end as they tend to travel
  
• with the cost of bridge replacement soaring..a gate is a cheaper option. I can't speak for all clubs but I know the HCSA owns most if not all it's bridges and often it is "grant" money from the OFSC that pays for reconstruction
  
• It's really not to keep the ATV's off but Jeeps and such off..they do wreck the bridges..especially the older wood truss ones
  

I have seen posts driven into the ground on both sides of a bridge to allow only 5' or less (?) pass through.

This seems fine to me.

Gated clear off - not so much.

The gates that I have seen* would have been up on Crown Land, or .. it seems like one was on the gas line?

All up north anyway...

* ...well, I did have a run-in with one farmer with a gate on his land.... as it was on the mapped road, but that was a really strange situation. Kind'a sucks to find a gate closed on your way OUT of the bush after dark! ???

(No bridge involved here.)

.

[Fred Quimby]

Was the gate to secure livestock?

[zoso]

Quads already use the logging roads and pipelines, why would they want to pay???

S.Ont are much different

Also here in Manitoba ATV were banned a few weeks this summer due to fire restrictions, we had a very dry spring/summer

IMO people like local loops vs drive thru trails as BP mentioned but those are not feasible $$$$ wise vs the "top" trails, the tourist like the drive thru trails, locals not so much

I agree, I really cannot see any kind of trail pass for atv's catching on here, there is no need for it with thousands of km to ride for free. I would not buy one.

[Ox]

Was the gate to secure livestock?

LOL!

All up north anyway...

.