Trails for 2012/2013 Season

[Fred Quimby]

Hi Fred, can you list the waste of financial resources and cost of each Each of these "Districts" submits some hefty expenses that come out of permit dollars. There are paid administrators in the districts to process permits for clubs much that same manner that some clubs pay an administrator to do the same work. I did not say we are paying specific people, but they are accruing expenses that are often being duplicated. That payout for these expenses comes from permit dollars. A district can be somewhat helpful to a club with minuscule resources and a small trail network..they are totally useless to a larger club and in fact hurt a larger club.

From what I have learned, the only paid positions within the ofsc is the administrative staff in Barrie. The districts have funds in an account to help clubs within the district keep operations going when unexpected circumstances arise. Nobody gets paid 4 doing all this. Clubs keep a portion of their permit sales to operat(wrong..clubs have to pay for their permits first before they see any money from the sales...and they have to put a hefty deposit down on the permits first.So that means having a surplus of funds from he previous year to work with to even start the following year) , again, nobody is paid. I'd have to go through some paperwork but I don't believe the board of governors has an account, they just get together and discuses district business and ensure the system flows together the best it can with available resources,(don't think that they do this for free there is a price tag to doing business) again nobody is paid. The only other paid position, some clubs pay groomed operators., Yes .. groomers are paid, so are STOP officers expenses and mileage. Some clubs pay an equipment manager and a mechanic so the adage that clubs are totally run by volunteers is not necessarily true. Many clubs are now paying an admin person as well as mentioned.These Districts also conduct monthly meetings which have price tags attached to them as well. Nothing is free. It's the cost of the four tier system that is literally raping the money from where it is needed. On the trails and at the club level.

If you want to rebuild it and turn it into a full blown business expect a large payroll, and another thing, you all cry that you don't know what is going on now, it will not be any of your business if it becomes a corp. Just saying.....I am not going explain the ins and outs of my business, if you want to pay for my services fine, if not, go away......that is how a business works. Snowmobilers in Ontario have it better than they realize, and 4 the ones that participate, they know this. I think you are confused or off base. I am not saying to turn things into a multi national corporation. That is the last thing that I want. What I want is an accountability for why we need a four tier system when 90 percent of the work get's done at the grass roots level or the club level. I do not believe we need a District Governor and Operations manager or another twelve Directors for a handful of clubs..that both submit a large roll of expenses each month for what?? There is no accountability or representation for what business they conduct. I am a club director and know exactly how a club is run and what goes on behind the scenes.

There are issues all across the Province today as we speak, about problems within clubs ..so why did the District Governors not step in an intervene before there was a disaster, if they provide so much value and insight? Too many layers of government and reporting structure, that's why. I used the example previously of D6 with somewhere around 12 clubs to facilitate and 14 Directors or affiliated District reps! That is ridiculous. Just imagine how much mileage alone get's paid to these people each and every month! It's mind boggling.

thanks for reading

[Fred Quimby]

I agree with wildman. I have contacted my club and look forward to lending a helping hand. 95 percent volunteer's are doing various levels of work. Without these hard working volunteer's, the trail pass cost would be un real. Most clubs have some paid groomer operators. With the groomers cost upwards of 150k, you can't just throw anyone behind the wheel.

Good for you! I became a Director this year as well and have learned bucket loads already. You will too and some things will spin your head. Believe me.

[Wildman]

well Fred, that is your opinion. I just went through the balance sheets from the district 5 meetings I attended over the last few years and I don't see a waste of financial resources. I believe we need district governors, I see you feel they offer no value, but I disagree. Maybe there is major corruption out there, the only resources I have access to is district 5, only 1 out of what, 16?

If there is a waste of resources in your club and district, hopefully you can be the link in correcting it.

In my opinion, the only major waste I see is the venue in which the AGM is conducted, there r probably less expensive places to hold it,but I guess the majority has no problem with it, so it is what it is.

[Fred Quimby]

well Fred, that is your opinion. I just went through the balance sheets from the district 5 meetings I attended over the last few years and I don't see a waste of financial resources. I believe we need district governors, I see you feel they offer no value, but I disagree. Maybe there is major corruption out there, the only resources I have access to is district 5, only 1 out of what, 16?

If there is a waste of resources in your club and district, hopefully you can be the link in correcting it.

In my opinion, the only major waste I see is the venue in which the AGM is conducted, there r probably less expensive places to hold it,but I guess the majority has no problem with it, so it is what it is.

Yes...I do have a major issue with my district, or others. When a club could be denied it's share of the shortfall payments money from the OFSC because it works hard, sells permits, is successful..I have a hard time supporting a district that condones that action. Whats the incentive to be a good hard working club? Why not just flounder along like some of the small clubs that sell maybe 20 permits and call it a day?

I do agree the AGM is a major waste of dollars but our own people chose that baby.

Thanks for the good debate. Cheers Wildman.

[Wildman]

So was your club short on money? Obviously the district was low on permit sales to get a shortfall payment. Did the district hold some cash for late season unforseen problems?

[Fred Quimby]

D6 get's the shortfall payments because there are several small clubs that sell very few permits. While our permits were down, they were not horrible. However. If the clubs that do not put much effort into selling get a nice payment, what is the incentive for a club of any size to hustle to sell permits? They could just sit back and still get their share of the pot and do nothing. That is a problem.

Incidentally..a lot of clubs that saw snow last season and ran trails and groomed are going to be finding this season tight. Increased traffic, demand for more grooming and repairs ate up more money. While the southern clubs that never fired up a groomer still raked in money.

[Wildman]

well here is the deal Fred, it get's pretty tough 2 sell permits where there are a bunch of clubs close together in low population areas. We all have to work together, if your club did fine without getting any of the short fall payment that is great, we are all in this together.

You r right, the southern clubs didn't groom much if at all. We still have expenses though, just not fuel and major repairs. We also send the money that tops up the shortfall account, which we r happy to do. My club bought a new groomer to replace 1 that was giving us fits, we paid 4 it without any ofsc or government assistance. We could have asked 4 help, we could have applied 4 assistance through ofsc funding programs, but we didn't. So we do that and help fund the shortfall account, but get looked down upon because we sit back and rake in money. Thank you.

Oh yeah, we have club volunteers that input every one of our permits into the pts . No payment, a huge undertaking on a slow system and inputting 840 + permits. I have a funny feeling that the southern clubs contribute a fair amount to the cause.

[Viperules700]

Too bad you never got to use the groomer after spending a day to put on the tracks and another day to take them off. Kudo's to warwick. Without us southern permit buyers, the whole system would collapse. No doubt about that. I am guessing 30 percent of permit sales are in district 5 and 9.

[Wildbill]

Team OFSC guys united we stand divided we fall.

[Wildman]

Too bad you never got to use the groomer after spending a day to put on the tracks and another day to take them off. Kudo's to warwick. Without us southern permit buyers, the whole system would collapse. No doubt about that. I am guessing 30 percent of permit sales are in district 5 and 9.

we never took them off, we bought the tractor. We had the money.......but it leaves us on the edge. I am not sure about permit sales this year, we have provide pretty good trails for our members the previous couple years, hopefully we see 80% return, allot of people get their backs up when we have no snow, I guess they will understand if we have a good year and the new groomer sits more than it goes (if permit sales are low). I am optimistic that it will be ok, the one thing we have going 4 us, is the whole damn outfit is new, hopefully problems will b at a minimum. The tractor will still carry some warranty.

As 4 the permit sales, I'd have to look at last years agm package, I remember our club wasn't as high on the list as I thought it would be, I know some clubs in central Ontario have some pretty big #'s. But ya, we do alright, and a fair bit goes back into they system to distributed around, and I think more will go after this years agm, and that won't hurt in the short term, but in the long run, we may need short fall payments......it is all relative, there ain't enough money.

[Wildman]

Team OFSC guys united we stand divided we fall.

and that is where the problem lies, there are people involved that think they know, but really they don't, I find allot of people either do not read the material or they can not comprehend it. Could there be better ways? ya probably, but this is the best we have for now, and I believe if the system was understood better, there wouldn't be so much crying and everybody would come to the realization that the permit is to inexpensive to maintain even a vast portion of what we have now. For the life of me I don't understand how people cannot look at the price of fuel and still not understand why the permit price needs to go up. Everything we do to make this sport go around requires fuel

[sledjunk]

You are right. But it is hard to explain to the public sometimes. Hope to meet you at the AGM.

[Wildman]

You are right. But it is hard to explain to the public sometimes. Hope to meet you at the AGM.

I won't b there this year sledjunk, I'm goin racin.........it isn't really even the general public I speak of, some of the statements made at the AGM are totaly off the wall, you can tell that many of the people there don't really know what is going on, they just want more money 4 their club. 90% of the time it is the same people that don't want an increase.

[Fred Quimby]

well here is the deal Fred, it get's pretty tough 2 sell permits where there are a bunch of clubs close together in low population areas. We all have to work together, if your club did fine without getting any of the short fall payment that is great, we are all in this together.

You r right, the southern clubs didn't groom much if at all. We still have expenses though, just not fuel and major repairs. We also send the money that tops up the shortfall account, which we r happy to do.(As do we and did)My club bought a new groomer to replace 1 that was giving us fits, we paid 4 it without any ofsc or government assistance. We could have asked 4 help, we could have applied 4 assistance through ofsc funding programs, but we didn't. So we do that and help fund the shortfall account, but get looked down upon because we sit back and rake in money. Thank you. Who is looking down at you?

Oh yeah, we have club volunteers that input every one of our permits into the pts . No payment, a huge undertaking on a slow system and inputting 840 + permits. I have a funny feeling that the southern clubs contribute a fair amount to the cause There are a lot of clubs contributing to the cause and some clubs soaking up the support and reaping the support all the way to the bank. The northern clubs in what was D16, that seldom groomed, reported trails as "OPEN", when they were'nt. Took OFSC funding for god knows what and sold next to ZERO permits. All on the backs of the clubs that do hustle! Then they have oodles of riders locally that never buy a pass and ride a lot longer than you or I

There is a place for a "district" to help a small club. I do not believe they have any good true purpose for a larger club that is self sufficient and supports itself quite fine. They are a tap on the resources of the stronger clubs. All the best Wildman, I have said my piece.

[02Sled]

Hi Fred, can you list the waste of financial resources and cost of each.

From what I have learned, the only paid positions within the ofsc is the administrative staff in Barrie. The districts have funds in an account to help clubs within the district keep operations going when unexpected circumstances arise. Nobody gets paid 4 doing all this. Clubs keep a portion of their permit sales to operate, again, nobody is paid. I'd have to go through some paperwork but I don't believe the board of governors has an account, they just get together and discuses district business and ensure the system flows together the best it can with available resources, again nobody is paid. The only other paid position, some clubs pay groomed operators.

If you want to rebuild it and turn it into a full blown business expect a large payroll, and another thing, you all cry that you don't know what is going on now, it will not be any of your business if it becomes a corp. Just saying.....I am not going explain the ins and outs of my business, if you want to pay for my services fine, if not, go away......that is how a business works. Snowmobilers in Ontario have it better than they realize, and 4 the ones that participate, they know this.

thanks for reading

District 7 has two paid administrators. I imagine others do also so there is some expense. Not saying it is justified or it isn't. Just it is there. I believe they also pay for office space and the overhead associated with it. Could be mistaken. At the same time you cannot operate all admin for free.

[Bucking Pig]

Hmm, Fred, that's twice now you've accused somebody in D16 with fraud. I don't know about the rest of the district, but I know Greenstone works very hard to put trails on the snow. And, Nipigon went away due to a combination of a naive executive and three really crappy winters in a row, combined with the downturn of our resource based economy. I assume the other clubs that folded or are in trouble had at least 2 of the same issues. If an individual (not the whole District) was defrauding the OFSC, and therefor the individual clubs, then that would make it that much harder for them to hang on. I know you (and many others) think that all the locals were (are) running around on the trails with no permits, and some undoubtably do, but my observation is that there are damned few snowmobiles running around the Nipigon area at all for the past 4 years. All the folks that had the incomes to put fuel in the sleds are gone chasing jobs. I have an informal trail that crosses my property. In years gone by, there would be 1/2 dozen sleds a day using it, triple that on weekends, the past three years, I've seen a dozen sleds all winter. Last winter, there was maybe three. I myself only used my sled for one hunting trip, one fishing trip and a couple of runs out to camp, plus keeping said trail open for my wife to walk on. (none of which was done on anything that even remotely resembled an OFSC trail) . I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make here, quite honestly, but I don't think that the demise of D16, and the issues that the OFSC is dealing with is due to any one thing. It's a complex problem that probably needs a radical idea to fix it.

Bucking Pig

[Wildman]

District 7 has two paid administrators. I imagine others do also so there is some expense. Not saying it is justified or it isn't. Just it is there. I believe they also pay for office space and the overhead associated with it. Could be mistaken. At the same time you cannot operate all admin for free.

District 5 has the use of th caw hall, they ask that we donate to their toy drive........peanuts in the big picture, and yes I got a little carried away there, we also pay for administration, there is allot of paperwork that goes through district that comes with allot of responsibility. Not a waste in my opinion, but hey, I am only 1 person.

[Wildman]

Not sure what 2 say about D16 Fred, I have rode up there and the trails where well maintained. I know the Longlac club was pretty strong when they had a good population. Maybe there was trouble when they tried to keep going, I don't know. I do know there is paperwork that shows how much money went up there, I have never seen it, so I don't know if it was an unreasonable amount, but I would tend to think that they probably made a good effort to keep the province wide trail system open. Was it a mistake? maybe, they happen every day, we tend to learn from the most costly ones. It would be nice to have a fool proof system that utilizes every dollar to the max, I've just never seen it anywhere. I like to think we have people in each district that care about organized snowmobiling, and they make sure there is as little waste as possible, if we don't, who do you replace them with, or do u just axe the whole district? It dosen't look like we have to worry about too much going up there this year.

not sure how many people had the pleasure of riding D16, but it is some wild territory, hard on equipment and harder on people, I would imagine the cost per km to maintain is much higher.

[Fred Quimby]

Hmm, Fred, that's twice now you've accused somebody in D16 with fraud. I don't know about the rest of the district, but I know Greenstone works very hard to put trails on the snow. And, Nipigon went away due to a combination of a naive executive and three really crappy winters in a row, combined with the downturn of our resource based economy. I assume the other clubs that folded or are in trouble had at least 2 of the same issues. If an individual (not the whole District) was defrauding the OFSC, and therefor the individual clubs, then that would make it that much harder for them to hang on. I know you (and many others) think that all the locals were (are) running around on the trails with no permits, and some undoubtably do, but my observation is that there are damned few snowmobiles running around the Nipigon area at all for the past 4 years. All the folks that had the incomes to put fuel in the sleds are gone chasing jobs. I have an informal trail that crosses my property. In years gone by, there would be 1/2 dozen sleds a day using it, triple that on weekends, the past three years, I've seen a dozen sleds all winter. Last winter, there was maybe three. I myself only used my sled for one hunting trip, one fishing trip and a couple of runs out to camp, plus keeping said trail open for my wife to walk on. (none of which was done on anything that even remotely resembled an OFSC trail) . I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make here, quite honestly, but I don't think that the demise of D16, and the issues that the OFSC is dealing with is due to any one thing. It's a complex problem that probably needs a radical idea to fix it.

Bucking Pig

If it walks like a duck....tell me what you would call it when clubs get money, post trails as "OPEN" on the OFSC website, yet a groomer never made a pass? Money flowed into and out of some of the clubs with nothing to show for it and no record either! That is w hy the plug was pulled. Not because of a struggling club or a bad Winter. It is what it is. The OFSC had to take immediate action until this mess can be sorted out.

It's not a one off. It involves more than one person and one club.

[IndySKS]

Did any one at the AGM catch the list of Clubs that didn't renew their membership with the OFSC ? Obviously there are the ones in D16 and I'm pretty sure i heard one in D11 that i think likely amalgamated with a neighboring Club. But did I hear Shinning Tree was one of those too that are no longer ? Anybody got the news on that ?

[sledjunk]

I did see that Shining Tree was one that failed to make the permit sale qualification. Hopefully they can merge with a neighbouring club and keep the area open.

[Lep]

I did see that Shining Tree was one that failed to make the permit sale qualification. Hopefully they can merge with a neighbouring club and keep the area open.

Do u know what the OFSC is planing on doing about this......Shinning Tree is a big link and also a TOP trail.

[Dara]

That's all good, but this topic has been around the horn quite a few times. I know it's dificult for some out there to fathom, but There are an awful lot of sleds out there that don't use the trail system. Never have, never will. Think Bravo's and older Tundra's. Those owners will not want to pay extra on their registration for a trail system they do not use. I don't know the answer to the trail funding question, but I don't think this is it, respectfully.

Bucking Pig

All those Bravos and Tundras ride somewhere, and they are licensed....where is the license money going.

I have many riding friends that won't cross the border into Canada just because of permit price.

[Canuck]

Do u know what the OFSC is planing on doing about this......Shinning Tree is a big link and also a TOP trail.

Very sad to see their club listed as a club that failed to make it re: sales. Let's hope that an adjoining club can assist with their trails.

I recall that the folks at Three Bears did lots in year's past and their efforts are appreciated.

[Bucking Pig]

All those Bravos and Tundras ride somewhere, and they are licensed....where is the license money going.

I have many riding friends that won't cross the border into Canada just because of permit price.

They're not riding OFSC trails. They're mostly headed out to camp, hunting, trapping or fishing. They are not designed for "trail" riding, as most folks on here would define it. This neck of the woods is mostly crown land. You can ride pretty much wherever you want, and you're not trespassing on anyone's land. Not like southern Ont.