Trails for 2012/2013 Season

[Viperules700]

Don't get me wrong. I completely understand what you're saying - but it can't be ignored. Like it or not, OFSC is competing with other locations

for tourism dollars. You (OFSC) can't

control the costs of the other things you

mentioned above (gas, lodging, insurance,

etc.)... the only thing they can control is the

permit price. Keep in mind I'm speaking mainly

of the 7-day version - the one us tourists

purchase. I'm telling you in all honesty.. It

does matter to those I ride with. Maybe it's

a psychological thing, I dunno. But when we are

deciding where to go riding, the permit cost is

always the first thing they bring up. It needs to

be around $75 for a 7-day.

Only issue if the ofsc went this route and charged 75 bucks for 7 days, full season and early permits would drop like a rock. I only rode 5 days last year. I would have just bought a week permit for 75 bucks, take a week off

and go north. At the end of the day we all loose in this scenario. Just being

realistic. At the end of the day, if an extra 65 bucks per person for the week is going to keep you away?? I doubt it, since Ontario and quebec have amazing trails, less traffic and more frequent grooming and snow conditions then Mi. I ran into lots of amercians last year and they were happy to pay the permit price, since they had no snow at home.

[gwilburn]

Only issue if the ofsc went this route and charged 75 bucks for 7 days, full season and early permits would drop like a rock. I only rode 5 days last year. I would have just bought a week permit for 75 bucks, take a week off and go north. At the end of the day we all loose in this scenario. Just being realistic.

$75 is still greater than $0... keep in mind your talking about a "group" of people coming from the states... 4-6 sleds. $75x4 = $300.00. $140x0 = $0.00. Just sayin'

[Viperules700]

$75 is still greater than $0... keep in mind your talking about a "group" of people coming from the states... 4-6 sleds. $75x4 = $300.00.

$140x0 = $0.00. Just sayin'

My point is the majority will come anyway's and pay the current weekly price. I know you are thinking if the rates were dropped, more permits

would be sold. I don't think this would be the

case, especially during bad winters. Maybe we

need a special permit for out of province

snowmobilers, valid only if they have a permit

from Thier current province or state. Many of us here paid 200 bucks and barely rode at all. Yet alot of these same people put in lots of volunteer hours to get trails ready for the season.

[Viperules700]

I have also seen a few major accidents from sledders particular amercians, trying to cover too much ground in one day. One guy flipped his poo last winter going to fast. Mind you it isn't all amercians, but these actions always lead to higher risk for trail liability insurance, hence less money for the trails. If we could get more reasonable insurance we could drop all of the rates. Just be thankful we all still have a place

to ride for now. Things could change in a hurry. I do see your point of view though, but you have to think of the whole picture. Out of province sleder's only make up a small portion of total revenue.

[AC+YA]

$75 is still greater than $0... keep in mind your talking about a "group" of people coming from the states... 4-6 sleds. $75x4 = $300.00. $140x0 = $0.00. Just sayin'

I agree that it seems much harder to introduce new riders to Ontario since the 1-day pass went away. We used to go and ride the Saturday around SSM and get many new riders to do the weekend trip from Michigan. Also, the passport or special ID has stopped a few who have not planned ahead. Many people in the states never get a passport and don't spend the extra $ on a special ID when renewing a drivers license.

I usually buy at least 4 seasonal permits for Ontario and compared to the trails in Michigan for which I always buy permits also, the price is well worth it!

I will miss District 16 groomed trails.

[Ox]

Hmmmm ....

I bought two "season" tags last yr and together we prolly put on about ....

Oh.....

.... I'm guessing - somewhere in the 25 klick range on groomed trails.

.

[derf]

What are the clubs in "district 16" and what are they saying about the trails in winter 2012/2013 ?

[Canuck]

I will miss District 16 groomed trails.

You don't know what you've had until it's gone.

I think that local riders will re-build the trail system.

There's obviously way more to this - a small group that was working extremely hard to keep it together; volunteer burnout; etc. Let's hope we, as Ontario snowmobilers, can snowmobile on groomed trails up there in the future.

[Viperules700]

I heard it is defiantly a small group of people doing the work. Then there are local people that don't buy permits and use the trails to get access to other play area's at the expense of that small hard working group. It is an eye opener for those locals that took advantage of the system. Hopefully they will rebuild. Other area's are having the exact same challenge.

[gwilburn]

My point is the majority will come anyway's and pay the current weekly price. I know you are thinking if the rates were dropped, more permits

would be sold. I don't think this would be the

case, especially during bad winters. Maybe we

need a special permit for out of province

snowmobilers, valid only if they have a permit

from Thier current province or state. Many of us here paid 200 bucks and barely rode at all. Yet alot of these same people put in lots of volunteer hours to get trails ready for the season.

Respecfully (of course) I think you are wrong. It's obvious by the significant decrease in permit sales, that fewer people are riding. When I first rode in Ontario in 2002, the weekly pass was far less than $100. After our first trip, "Destination Ontario" was never in question until a few years ago. The only question was "when" and "how many times" we would go. Several of those years I took two trips so I purchased the season pass.

Fast forward to 2012... now the only objection I hear from my fellow riders is how much the permit costs in comparison to other possible destinations (and of course the extra cost of gas in Ontario). That all used to be offset (somewhat) for Americans by the exchange rate - but that's no more.

All I'm saying is that I AM a tourist/visitor and I can't be the only one making these choices the last few years. I like your idea of the "out of province" permits... But I thought the 7-day was essentiallly that??

Forget the idea of the "bad snow year". Typically the snowbelts in the U.P. of Michigan, Northern NY and Maine have as much, and get more, snow than Ontario. Last season was horrible in the U.P. - total snowfall 183" (over 15 feet).

Bottomline is that the "proof" is in the diminishing revenues of the OFSC and associated clubs. The permit prices keep rising, and the revenues keep diminishing. A wise man once said (to paraphrase) "...only a fool continues to do the same thing and expects a different outcome."

[gwilburn]

I have also seen a few major accidents from sledders particular amercians, trying to cover too much ground in one day. One guy flipped his poo last winter going to fast. Mind you it isn't all amercians, but these actions always lead to higher risk for trail liability insurance, hence less money for the trails. If we could get more reasonable insurance we could drop all of the rates. Just be thankful we all still have a place

to ride for now. Things could change in a hurry. I do see your point of view though, but you have to think of the whole picture. Out of province sleder's only make up a small portion of total revenue.

Whatever happened to being responsible for your own actions? I actaully have seen far less of this "behavior" in Ontario than in the States.

It would be very interesting to know the breakdown of permit sales for the past 10 years. Seasonal versus 7-day and "local" versus out-of-province.

[02Sled]

I wondered how we stack up against perhaps New York State.

The 260 Clubs and County Associations that make up the New York State Snowmobiling Association (NYSSA) invite you to enjoy New York's 10,500 miles of trail this winter.

The New York Statewide snowmobile trail system operates on a sled registration system. There is no trail pass required, but all New York State residents and non-residents must register their sleds in New York to ride in New York

Registration is $100 (one year), commencing from September 1.

Registration is $45 for riders who join a New York State Snowmobile Association Member Club and obtain a registration voucher. Anyone may join a New York Club.

Prior to registering a sled, you must have paid sales tax on your sled, unless you are a non-resident. Non residents are exempt from the New York state sales tax requirement for snowmobiles.

You can register at any Department of Motor Vehicle Office throughout the state. Registration renewals are commonly processed by mail.

Register with Canaltown Snowmobilers $25.00.

It appears the real difference is... you own a sled you pay $100. to licence it. You join a club it drops to $70. total cost for the registration and the membership combined. Imagine if every sled in Ontario had the trail permit as part of the licencing. It could become pretty affordable. All but eliminate the need of checking for trail permits, just the licencing that would then fall under the OPP.

[Bucking Pig]

That's all good, but this topic has been around the horn quite a few times. I know it's dificult for some out there to fathom, but There are an awful lot of sleds out there that don't use the trail system. Never have, never will. Think Bravo's and older Tundra's. Those owners will not want to pay extra on their registration for a trail system they do not use. I don't know the answer to the trail funding question, but I don't think this is it, respectfully.

Bucking Pig

[Fred Quimby]

Before too many cry about poor D16. Understand that there was some monkey business going on up there. A lot of OFSC $$$ went into the district and very little grooming came out of it. Trails were being listed as "OPEN" when in fact groomers had never made a pass in some areas. Still in other areas, the grooming time was greatly inflated based on actual conditions. Of course there was no paperwork to substantiate anything. Where the money went was a mystery to the club up there.

Look for D17 and 15 to assume responsibilities.

Stay tuned...

[white dragon]

bottom line...those who want & can afford it will always pay the price...look at the 407...expensive...but busy...all of us sledders will bitch...but will gladly pay the coin...& help maintain trails...what we need to focus on is getting new riders into the sport...manufactures are offering great deals on sleds...so should ofsc...give reduced permit price for new sleds buyers...then get help for manufactures...incentifies have helped the car industry...cheap coupons from fastfood places make them affordable...whew...almost done...personally i think the ofsc does a good job...maybe a watch-dog group should be organized to question & offer advice to the ofsc brass...just searching for answers...try owning 09 800 dragon...(to paraphase) thats a fool that hopes for a different outcome each rebuild...can't wait for season to start...

[Fred Quimby]

Some great ideas White Dragon...however..we are dealing with an entity that is archaic at best. They run elections where votes are destroyed right after an election (how could you ever question an outcome??), they run a four tier system of governance?? Talk about wasteful multi-layered! That's worse then public politics! Just imagine how much money could go back to the clubs where it is needed if you eliminated just one tier of the OFSC..come on ..really..four tiers?

The repair work for this sport has to start with this organization first. It needs to be dismantled and rebuilt.

[Ox]

I don't know or understand where a trail designated "D15" is or would be?

I just went to the OFSC site to look at a bleeding map, and I found their "code of ethics" and "how to buy a sled", but I kant find a bloody map!

???

.

[Classic]

Some great ideas White Dragon...however..we are dealing with an entity that is archaic at best. They run elections where votes are destroyed right after an election (how could you ever question an outcome??), they run a four tier system of governance?? Talk about wasteful multi-layered! That's worse then public politics! Just imagine how much money could go back to the clubs where it is needed if you eliminated just one tier of the OFSC..come on ..really..four tiers?

The repair work for this sport has to start with this organization first. It needs to be dismantled and rebuilt.

Would you like to name the four tiers?

[skidooboy]

I don't know or understand where a trail designated "D15" is or would be?

I just went to the OFSC site to look at a bleeding map, and I found their "code of ethics" and "how to buy a sled", but I kant find a bloody map!

???

.

Ox, think hornepayne, Hearst, Kap for 15.

16 is mani, marathon, longlac, geraldton, beardmore (maybe even white river?)

unsure if the greenstone people will keep trying to stay linked.

13,14, and 17 are too far away to salvage 16.

i hate to say it but, face it... until something changes drasticly, things will stay localized in those areas out of the ofsc. this is bad but, can be good (or better) for the smaller local clubs. gives them a chance to build on their own, in baby steps. v.s being told they "HAVE TO" get certain link trails opened and maintained 24-7. Ski

for the record, i rode 2 days on groomed trails, less than 25 miles a day this season. we bought 2 seasonal permits. Ski

[gwilburn]

I wondered how we stack up against perhaps New York State.

The 260 Clubs and County Associations that make up the New York State Snowmobiling Association (NYSSA) invite you to enjoy New York's 10,500 miles of trail this winter.

The New York Statewide snowmobile trail system operates on a sled registration system. There is no trail pass required, but all New York State residents and non-residents must register their sleds in New York to ride in New York

Registration is $100 (one year), commencing from September 1.

Registration is $45 for riders who join a New York State Snowmobile Association Member Club and obtain a registration voucher. Anyone may join a New York Club.

Prior to registering a sled, you must have paid sales tax on your sled, unless you are a non-resident. Non residents are exempt from the New York state sales tax requirement for snowmobiles.

You can register at any Department of Motor Vehicle Office throughout the state. Registration renewals are commonly processed by mail.

Register with Canaltown Snowmobilers $25.00.

It appears the real difference is... you own a sled you pay $100. to licence it. You join a club it drops to $70. total cost for the registration and the membership combined. Imagine if every sled in Ontario had the trail permit as part of the licencing. It could become pretty affordable. All but eliminate the need of checking for trail permits, just the licencing that would then fall under the OPP.

Even my home state of Maryland is catching up. Down here it was common practice to purchase your toys in a neighboring state (Pennsylvania for example) who requires residents to register their sleds/atvs... It is at this point of registration that State Sales Tax (our only sales tax) is collected. HOWEVER, if you reside in a different state that is where you were supposed to register and/or pay tax. Up until 2010, Maryland did not require ATVs and Snowmobiles to be registered.

Now, it's almost impossible to sell your toys unless you have a valid registration (i.e. you've paid taxes). My sled is registred in PA... I padi the 6.5% sales tax and the $20 registration fee. I renew my PA registration every 2 years for $25... that entitles me to ride on any trail system in the state. Granted, it in no way compares to Ontario or NY. But it does satisfy the NY requirements above. I need only join a club for $25 and pay $45 for an annual registration.

Incidentally, PA and many other states allow for the "older" machines and machines that will not be ridden on State lands.

So there are many creative ways of addressing this issue... and looking at what other locales have done is a great idea.

[Canuck]

Thanks for info on other jurisdictions. As you say, data on how others license/insure etc.is very impt

[Fred Quimby]

Would you like to name the four tiers?

Sure:

Here you go...

(1) Club- (217) of them in Ontario (each club has their own Executive Board and Directors and various committees).

(2) 16 Districts - Each District has another Board of Directors and if you will..Directors at large! D6 for example has an 8 member Executive board and another 6 Directors - 12 clubs in D6 with 14 Directors!!!

(3) Governor- for each district also operations Director - to oversee the districts and their board and executive.

(4) OFSC- Executive board to oversee the various boards and Directors

Multi Tiered !

Ridiculous potential waste of financial resources in what is near a recession again.

This is the sort of structure that is going to ruin the sport in a painful slow death.

[Ox]

I see now that D-15 and D-16 is meant as "D" trail in that District.

Was not catching that the first go-round....

I thought that it was representitive of a local or spur trail somewhere, but the designation wasn't right...

.

[Wildman]

Sure:

Here you go...

(1) Club- (217) of them in Ontario (each club has their own Executive Board and Directors and various committees).

(2) 16 Districts - Each District has another Board of Directors and if you will..Directors at large! D6 for example has an 8 member Executive board and another 6 Directors - 12 clubs in D6 with 14 Directors!!!

(3) Governor- for each district also operations Director - to oversee the districts and their board and executive.

(4) OFSC- Executive board to oversee the various boards and Directors

Multi Tiered !

Ridiculous waste of financial resources in what is near a recession again.

This is the sort of structure that is going to ruin the sport in a painful slow death.

Hi Fred, can you list the waste of financial resources and cost of each.

From what I have learned, the only paid positions within the ofsc is the administrative staff in Barrie. The districts have funds in an account to help clubs within the district keep operations going when unexpected circumstances arise. Nobody gets paid 4 doing all this. Clubs keep a portion of their permit sales to operate, again, nobody is paid. I'd have to go through some paperwork but I don't believe the board of governors has an account, they just get together and discuses district business and ensure the system flows together the best it can with available resources, again nobody is paid. The only other paid position, some clubs pay groomed operators.

If you want to rebuild it and turn it into a full blown business expect a large payroll, and another thing, you all cry that you don't know what is going on now, it will not be any of your business if it becomes a corp. Just saying.....I am not going explain the ins and outs of my business, if you want to pay for my services fine, if not, go away......that is how a business works. Snowmobilers in Ontario have it better than they realize, and 4 the ones that participate, they know this.

thanks for reading

[Viperules700]

I agree with wildman. I have contacted my club and look forward to lending a helping hand. 95 percent volunteer's are doing various levels of work. Without these hard working volunteer's, the trail pass cost would be un real. Most clubs have some paid groomer operators. With the groomers cost upwards of 150k, you can't just throw anyone behind the wheel.