Sksman Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 Now if there was a group insurance included in with the Val tag and trail pass there might be a way to grab more sales. There are many threads discussing high insurance prices. If liability was included with permit and add on a Val tag would it work? Its a no win situation for someone always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake G Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bigfish said: Why? Does it not cost anything to put trails in there? (playing devils advocate, here) I meant keeping things the same in the north as they are now. No mandatory payment of trail pass fees when registering their sleds...unless they're running the OFSC trails. In the south, force every registered sled to pay for an OFSC trail permit.....but as Zoso pointed out, how could we justify charging trail fees for owners living where trails seldom open.... I guess there's no easy solution. Edited December 21, 2019 by Blake G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sksman Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 37 minutes ago, Blake G said: I meant keeping things the same in the north as they are now. No mandatory payment of trail pass fees when registering their sleds...unless they're running the OFSC trails. In the south, force every registered sled to pay for an OFSC trail permit.....but as Zoso pointed out, how could we justify charging trail fees for owners living where trails seldom open.... I guess there's no easy solution. Do they pay for Val tags in the north? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake G Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 Good question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigfish Posted December 21, 2019 Author Share Posted December 21, 2019 47 minutes ago, Sksman said: Do they pay for Val tags in the north? No nothing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther340 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 (edited) Revrnd.....I am seeing now the potential confusion with how many snow machines registered in Ont. When I googled it ....I found it on a statistics canada site broke down by province . But maybe that number they quote is how many plates stickers were purchased in 2018 for new sleds or renewed ......but at least up on north here you used to be able to buy multiple years And some might do that instead of going in every year....so then you need to guess how many would purchase multiple years. So maybe that explains the 300,000 sled number you had seen hat was questionable. Of couse that skews my numbers too if that statistics site I got for Canada did not take that into account. Either way you need to subtract the dollars no longer obtained from the 85 or 90 thousand annual ofsc permits. If they too just need to buy $100 plate sticker annually instead of 190 or 200 $ now annually. Edited December 22, 2019 by Panther340 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manotickmike Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 4 hours ago, revrnd said: If the MTO is involved with the trail permit, why doesnt the OPP enforce the regs saying you need it on OFSC trails? Precisely. If the provincial government's name is on the documentation, they have a responsibility to ensure compliance. No damn different than the roads. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poo Man Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 I can't see how this could even be entertained here given the lack of enforcement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strong Farmer Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 5 hours ago, revrnd said: If the MTO is involved with the trail permit, why doesnt the OPP enforce the regs saying you need it on OFSC trails? Been like that for awhile but enforcement only goes down it seems. Police departments are all Over budgets and under staffed and don’t want to spend any more time in court, fighting potential trespass fines is my guess. I know one volunteer around here recieved a ticket on his atv for crossing road without wearing a helmet while setting up trails. Talk about an expensive day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 3 hours ago, Panther340 said: Revrnd.....I am seeing now the potential confusion with how many snow machines registered in Ont. When I googled it ....I found it on a statistics canada site broke down by province . But maybe that number they quote is how many plates stickers were purchased in 2018 for new sleds or renewed ......but at least up on north here you used to be able to buy multiple years And some might do that instead of going in every year....so then you need to guess how many would purchase multiple years. So maybe that explains the 300,000 sled number you had seen hat was questionable. Of couse that skews my numbers too if that statistics site I got for Canada did not take that into account. Either way you need to subtract the dollars no longer obtained from the 85 or 90 thousand annual ofsc permits. If they too just need to buy $100 plate sticker annually instead of 190 or 200 $ now annually. A few years ago I had some documentation that showed what the MTO had for info. It pretty much put to rest the validity of the 300,000 sleds stat. I'm thinking it was around the time the OFSC was selling over 100,000 permits. We felt it a stretch that there were 200,000 registered & 'active' sleds in the province that weren't used on groomed trails. Any idea how many people buy the fishing only outdoors card? That would give an idea of the number ice fisherman who could have a snowmobile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sksman Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 31 minutes ago, revrnd said: A few years ago I had some documentation that showed what the MTO had for info. It pretty much put to rest the validity of the 300,000 sleds stat. I'm thinking it was around the time the OFSC was selling over 100,000 permits. We felt it a stretch that there were 200,000 registered & 'active' sleds in the province that weren't used on groomed trails. Any idea how many people buy the fishing only outdoors card? That would give an idea of the number ice fisherman who could have a snowmobile. Sorry but I do not understand the reference to the Fishing only outdoor card. Anyone who buys any type of outdoor card can ice fish. Hunters ice fish as do sport license card holders and conservation card holders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strong Farmer Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 ofsc knows current permit totals and I am sure mto knows how many snowmobilers bought Val tags this season. Be nice to see some real numbers that are up to date. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 49 minutes ago, Sksman said: Sorry but I do not understand the reference to the Fishing only outdoor card. Anyone who buys any type of outdoor card can ice fish. Hunters ice fish as do sport license card holders and conservation card holders. True, I haven't fished in a few years, so I don't know the licencing breakdown. My brother hunts, but hasn't fished in years. There are pronbably a LOT more anglers than hunters in the province. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 7 hours ago, zoso said: How can you justify this to those that ride in areas that do not even have ofsc trails. BTW, all examples of things we may pay for but not use such as the trent, pools etc. are government owned and run entities, not private like ofsc trails. Why not make everyone that buys a winter coat pay a tax so I can ski for free. The trail pass is an MTO controlled pass. That's why the minister has to sign off on price changes and we can't give people free passes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Strong Farmer said: ofsc knows current permit totals and I am sure mto knows how many snowmobilers bought Val tags this season. Be nice to see some real numbers that are up to date. I'm sure all those sleds that were out on the trails during 'welfare weekend' in seasons past had current val tags... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strong Farmer Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 49 minutes ago, revrnd said: I'm sure all those sleds that were out on the trails during 'welfare weekend' in seasons past had current val tags... Ofsc would have an idea for sure. I am sure some of this knowledge is shared at Agm and will come to light eventually, hopefully not in a bad way near end of season either. Cross our fingers for a good winter for all areas of ontario. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 13 hours ago, 02Sled said: The trail pass is an MTO controlled pass. That's why the minister has to sign off on price changes and we can't give people free passes But it is not a crown corporation or government controlled like the examples you provided. It is a private entity with a very small amount of government over sight, so small it is negligible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crispy Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Keep the government regulators OUT of the OFSC imo. This will only make things worse in ways we do not yet understand. Solving one issue by inviting more issues in is not effectively solving anything. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy JR Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 I cant understand how people think owning a snowmobile should equal helping subsidize a trail system for the wealthy so the wealthy can enjoy their expensive sport that most people will never get a chance to enjoy. I personally know more people with sleds that do not trail ride than do trail ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poo Man Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 37 minutes ago, Guy JR said: I personally know more people with sleds that do not trail ride than do trail ride. Do they use it for fishing/trapping? Saying trail riding is only for the wealthy but owning a sled is not is kind of silly. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy JR Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Poo Man said: Do they use it for fishing/trapping? Saying trail riding is only for the wealthy but owning a sled is not is kind of silly. If you live somewhere you can ride from home you can get into snowmobiling for $1000. A trip to northern Ontario for a week of sledding and you will spend a couple grand for the week. The last bunch of years my sled (2006 Rev) is primarily used for pulling the kids around on GT snow racers and the occasional visit to the neighbors. Most people have sleds around here just for putting around the farm. Most people that seriously trail ride spend many thousands on fuel, trailers, hotels, restaurants, gear, machines. Myself and my neighbors are not going to subsidize your desire to trail ride. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poo Man Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 I agree with you actually with the subsidizing, but not the rest. You don't have to spend thousands a week, to snowmobile. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 9 hours ago, Guy JR said: I cant understand how people think owning a snowmobile should equal helping subsidize a trail system for the wealthy so the wealthy can enjoy their expensive sport that most people will never get a chance to enjoy. I personally know more people with sleds that do not trail ride than do trail ride. Do you have a boat? Do you use either the Trent system or the Rideau? You heavily subsidize the operation of those although many boat owners will never use it and it is very widely used by people who can afford boats worth $100K and much more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 (edited) On 12/21/2019 at 9:42 PM, revrnd said: Any idea how many people buy the fishing only outdoors card? That would give an idea of the number ice fisherman who could have a snowmobile. This is what the try our trails program was used for , to collect Stats for sleds in Ontario that were registered but did not buy OFSC trail permits. Cross reference vin numbers with pure data from the snowmobile community. We needed several years to collect that data,this is why it took so long for the program to end/scrapped.. Edited December 24, 2019 by Yukon Cornelious 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 On 12/21/2019 at 8:11 PM, manotickmike said: Precisely. If the provincial government's name is on the documentation, they have a responsibility to ensure compliance. No damn different than the roads. They do enforce compliance but just like the highways there is absolutely zero likelihood of charging every operator who commits an infraction of the MVA or the MSVA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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