CP Rail closing trails due to liability insurance

[Kaz]

Here in the French River we lost a section of C trail due to insurance. The C trail runs parallel to the railway on CP property, doesn't cross the tracks and there is brush between the railway and trail.

It all started with CP Rail asking for an insurance certificate, StoneRidge won't provide until they see the MOR (Memorandum of Understanding).  It turns out the original MOR of understanding dates back to 1998.

StoneRidge is reviewing all MOR and there is a revised OFSC MOR that was issued this year to be used. 

Anyhow long story short, with the new wording of the MOR CP Rail what's no part of it. 

We lost a section of trail, I wondering how many other clubs are experiencing the same issue with CP. I haven't heard of any issues with CN. 

If the railway guys decide to close rail crossings in the bush because of liability insurance then I think a lot trails in Ontario are in jeopardy.

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Kaz
spelling

[soupkids]

1 hour ago, Kaz said:

Here in the French River we lost a section of C trail due to insurance. The C trail runs parallel to the railway on CP property, doesn't cross the tracks and there is brush between the railway and trail.

It all started with CP Rail asking for an insurance certificate, StoneRidge won't provide until they see the MOR (Memorandum of Understanding).  It turns out the original MOR of understanding dates back to 1998.

StoneRidge is reviewing all MOR and there is a revised OFSC MOR that was issued this year to be used. 

Anyhow long story short, with the new wording of the MOR CP Rail what's no part of it. 

We lost a section of trail, I wondering how many other clubs are experiencing the same issue with CP. I haven't heard of any issues with CN. 

If the railway guys decide to close rail crossings in the bush because of liability insurance then I think a lot trails in Ontario are in jeopardy.

 

Sudbury is in the same boat which is slowly sinking.

[Poo Man]

That's depressing but not surprising given the liability involved 

[ArcticCrusher]

Well, the good news is if this continues there won't be any sledders left for lawyers to use to sue.

[slomo]

8 hours ago, Kaz said:

Here in the French River we lost a section of C trail due to insurance. The C trail runs parallel to the railway on CP property, doesn't cross the tracks and there is brush between the railway and trail.

It all started with CP Rail asking for an insurance certificate, StoneRidge won't provide until they see the MOR (Memorandum of Understanding).  It turns out the original MOR of understanding dates back to 1998.

StoneRidge is reviewing all MOR and there is a revised OFSC MOR that was issued this year to be used. 

Anyhow long story short, with the new wording of the MOR CP Rail what's no part of it. 

We lost a section of trail, I wondering how many other clubs are experiencing the same issue with CP. I haven't heard of any issues with CN. 

If the railway guys decide to close rail crossings in the bush because of liability insurance then I think a lot trails in Ontario are in jeopardy.

 

There are many roads to people's camps and commercial enterprises in that area that cross tracks as well - usually without any signs other than ones warning of an uncontrolled crossing. Do you think they will be blocked as well?

[soupkids]

3 hours ago, slomo said:

There are many roads to people's camps and commercial enterprises in that area that cross tracks as well - usually without any signs other than ones warning of an uncontrolled crossing. Do you think they will be blocked as well?

Yup

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

12 hours ago, Kaz said:

Here in the French River we lost a section of C trail due to insurance. The C trail runs parallel to the railway on CP property, doesn't cross the tracks and there is brush between the railway and trail.

It all started with CP Rail asking for an insurance certificate, StoneRidge won't provide until they see the MOR (Memorandum of Understanding).  It turns out the original MOR of understanding dates back to 1998.

StoneRidge is reviewing all MOR and there is a revised OFSC MOR that was issued this year to be used. 

Anyhow long story short, with the new wording of the MOR CP Rail what's no part of it. 

We lost a section of trail, I wondering how many other clubs are experiencing the same issue with CP. I haven't heard of any issues with CN. 

If the railway guys decide to close rail crossings in the bush because of liability insurance then I think a lot trails in Ontario are in jeopardy.

 

Has your District office gotten the OFSC in Barrie involved in this issue yet? I would hope that they might be able to get the problem-wording in the MOR changed so that it is acceptable to all parties. If indeed CP is going to force this issue on all parties with crossings or businesses that are involved, I'm sure someone somewhere will come up with a solution.

Edited November 16, 2019 by PISTON LAKE CRUISER

[Kaz]

The Barrie office is aware of the situation, but from what I have seen so far they have done nothing. It has been our district trails coordinator trying to resolve the situation with CP. 

 

[Big Pete]

18 hours ago, slomo said:

There are many roads to people's camps and commercial enterprises in that area that cross tracks as well - usually without any signs other than ones warning of an uncontrolled crossing. Do you think they will be blocked as well?

In D1 a few years back CN forced a number of farmers to revoke club access to their private rail crossings. Clubs ended up having to reroute to the nearest public road crossing. 

 

I think the logic was that permission for the crossing was granted to the farmer. They could not assign their rights to another user. 

 

I would think that anyone that has rail crossing rights to access their own property would be safe. You just can’t let anyone else use it. 

[crispy]

On 11/15/2019 at 7:35 AM, Kaz said:

Here in the French River we lost a section of C trail due to insurance. The C trail runs parallel to the railway on CP property, doesn't cross the tracks and there is brush between the railway and trail.

It all started with CP Rail asking for an insurance certificate, StoneRidge won't provide until they see the MOR (Memorandum of Understanding).  It turns out the original MOR of understanding dates back to 1998.

StoneRidge is reviewing all MOR and there is a revised OFSC MOR that was issued this year to be used. 

Anyhow long story short, with the new wording of the MOR CP Rail what's no part of it. 

We lost a section of trail, I wondering how many other clubs are experiencing the same issue with CP. I haven't heard of any issues with CN. 

If the railway guys decide to close rail crossings in the bush because of liability insurance then I think a lot trails in Ontario are in jeopardy.

 

 

Whoever is pulling these strings, please be reasonable and take pause. Just because you can, doesnt mean you should. Hoping for sensibilities to come out on top here

[gtserider]

On 11/15/2019 at 7:35 AM, Kaz said:

Here in the French River we lost a section of C trail due to insurance. The C trail runs parallel to the railway on CP property, doesn't cross the tracks and there is brush between the railway and trail.

It all started with CP Rail asking for an insurance certificate, StoneRidge won't provide until they see the MOR (Memorandum of Understanding).  It turns out the original MOR of understanding dates back to 1998.

StoneRidge is reviewing all MOR and there is a revised OFSC MOR that was issued this year to be used. 

Anyhow long story short, with the new wording of the MOR CP Rail what's no part of it. 

We lost a section of trail, I wondering how many other clubs are experiencing the same issue with CP. I haven't heard of any issues with CN. 

If the railway guys decide to close rail crossings in the bush because of liability insurance then I think a lot trails in Ontario are in jeopardy.

 

CP closed a cottage road access on our lake this year. Made them put in locked gates on both sides.What a pain,open gate close gate and repeat on the other side and repeat on your way out.In the name of profit and shareholders they are neglecting the railway and the rolling stock.Hell walk 10 meters either way and you can come home with brake shoes,pins,couplings and a milk crate full of spikes that have come out Not sure CN is any better,They share the line. CP/CN run north on the CP track and vicea versa on the CN line.We have 3 crossings. 1 is controlled,1is on native land

Chief will tell them to take a hike. 1 in the middle of nowhere,little worried about that one.

[revrnd]

2 hours ago, gtserider said:

CP closed a cottage road access on our lake this year. Made them put in locked gates on both sides.What a pain,open gate close gate and repeat on the other side and repeat on your way out.In the name of profit and shareholders they are neglecting the railway and the rolling stock.Hell walk 10 meters either way and you can come home with brake shoes,pins,couplings and a milk crate full of spikes that have come out Not sure CN is any better,They share the line. CP/CN run north on the CP track and vicea versa on the CN line.We have 3 crossings. 1 is controlled,1is on native land

Chief will tell them to take a hike. 1 in the middle of nowhere,little worried about that one.

You forgot to mention the spikes that are working themselves out of the ties...

[volunteer2]

Thought I would revisit this thread and add to it that there are problems with Grand River Conservation Authority  ( GRCA ) in our area.  I have heard it's on Face Book that trails are not going to be allowed on their areas.  It's about insurance that needs to be in place all year from what I understand. Sort of the problem this thread is about ? Don't know much else........but.... don't we have an MTO permit..... and doesn't the OFSC have sort of an agreement with the MTO........ and isn't that the government........so what gives ????

Edited December 16, 2019 by volunteer2

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

4 minutes ago, volunteer2 said:

Thought I would revisit this thread and add to it that there are problems with Grand River Authority  ( GRCA ) in our area.  I have heard it's on Face Book that trails are not going to be allowed on their areas.  It's about insurance that needs to be in place all year from what I understand.  Don't know much else........but don't we have an MTO permit and isn't the OFSC  sort of an agreement with the MTO and isn't that the government    

Have a look in the clubs south section Nick. I posted what Lake Conestoga club had on Facebook. As well, on St. Clements SC Facebook page was a post saying that Fergus Elora Belwood Club has the same problem with the GRCA at Belwood.

[volunteer2]

Thanks Brian  I didn't go there yet.    Heard about FEB last night   Will go there next    Just reading Lake Conestoga FB comments and got me thinking    All this land ......  GRCA   controls......who owns it,  sure isn't them,  they manage the land on behalf of the municipalities.  They shouldn't even be given the LUP to sign   It should go right to the Municipalities    

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

7 minutes ago, volunteer2 said:

Thanks Brian  I didn't go there yet.    Heard about FEB last night   Will go there next    Just reading Lake Conestoga FB comments and got me thinking    All this land ......  GRCA   controls......who owns it,  sure isn't them,  they manage the land on behalf of the municipalities.  They shouldn't even be given the LUP to sign   It should go right to the Municipalities    

Just ridiculous on the part of GRCA. They (or their insurance policy) will be on the hook now if a sled crashes on what were OFSC trails? There are sledders who will keep using those trails with or without stakes and signs.

[Sledguy74]

Just read it on FB, it’s a real tragedy after a 45 yr relationship, 

 

[gtserider]

CP rail closures are not directed at snowmobile's as per say.Every body with a private' crossings is going to have to gate and lock the crossing.For seasonal and farmers is just an inconvenience,snowmobilers not so much. Oh and there railway police aren't so nice.

[Kaz]

11 hours ago, volunteer2 said:

Thought I would revisit this thread and add to it that there are problems with Grand River Conservation Authority  ( GRCA ) in our area.  I have heard it's on Face Book that trails are not going to be allowed on their areas.  It's about insurance that needs to be in place all year from what I understand. Sort of the problem this thread is about ? Don't know much else........but.... don't we have an MTO permit..... and doesn't the OFSC have sort of an agreement with the MTO........ and isn't that the government........so what gives ????

Sounds similar to our issue with CP. OFSC insurance is changing the wording so that insurance only covers the snowmobile season. This all came to head with the insurance people due an ATV accident on a club trail rail crossing.

[volunteer2]

So what you are saying is we did have insurance 12 months of the year in the past ?  

[ZR SLEDHEAD]

If previously insured only during the sledding / trails are open season, what would have previously either early or post season  if a volunteer was injured or crashed a means of transportation out to the trails on one of those trails or crossings?

Edited December 16, 2019 by ZR SLEDHEAD

[Kaz]

9 minutes ago, volunteer2 said:

So what you are saying is we did have insurance 12 months of the year in the past ?  

I don't think there was insurance coverage for 12 months, it's just that the OFSC new Memorandum of Understanding makes it very clear to the land owner that the OFSC insurance policy only covers the snowmobile season.

[02Sled]

13 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Just ridiculous on the part of GRCA. They (or their insurance policy) will be on the hook now if a sled crashes on what were OFSC trails? There are sledders who will keep using those trails with or without stakes and signs.

Why would they be... the snowmobiler would be trespassing on private property. If I decide to ride my snowmobile across your front lawn and get hurt are you liable for my injuries.

 

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

11 minutes ago, 02Sled said:

Why would they be... the snowmobiler would be trespassing on private property. If I decide to ride my snowmobile across your front lawn and get hurt are you liable for my injuries.

 

Common sense would say you are correct but in today's world our judicial system doesn't always seem to use common sense in their decision making.

[02Sled]

Just now, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Common sense would say you are correct but in today's world our judicial system doesn't always seem to use common sense in their decision making.

I think back to a friend who lives near Flesherton. Farm property that isn't farmed on a rural road. The house is about 750 ft. in from the road and the barn further yet. A snowmobiler rides up the road and turns into the driveway, past the house and barn into the fields to play. The wire farm fence is buried in snow and not visible. The snowmobile gets hung up and the rider ejected from the snowmobile. The rider tried to sue my friend. The judge had read the complaint and the response. He dismissed the case and admonished the snowmobiler. He also ordered the snowmobiler to pay for fence repair, any costs incurred and a monetary penalty for trespass.