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revrnd

2014 District 13 Map

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Does anyone know if there will be a 2014 Dist' 13 map? I picked up a map @ the show. A week later when I realized it was 2013 map, I thought, OK, they're just getting rid of some leftover maps.

 

I requested a map thru their website. When I received the map in the mail, it was another 2013 map. If anyone gets an extra copy, could they PM me?

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Asked about that at the Novi show after realizing that I had picked up 2013 at the TO show.  There was no 'real' answer, just "I don't know who does the maps.  I am not involved in that part."

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Can't you see the trend here?  13 will be the next to go: Who cares?   Why would I go to Wawa?  You can't go anywhere from there, let's just go straight to Chapleau.  I really can't believe that the OFSC is letting this happen, the most prolific snowmobiling area in Ontario, will be allowed to die, and no one cares!

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Can't you see the trend here?  13 will be the next to go: Who cares?   Why would I go to Wawa?  You can't go anywhere from there, let's just go straight to Chapleau.  I really can't believe that the OFSC is letting this happen, the most prolific snowmobiling area in Ontario, will be allowed to die, and no one cares!

Every one cares except the locals up there who don't buy permits to support their trails. Until that happens, you're probably right. It will die a slow death.

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Every one cares except the locals up there who don't buy permits to support their trails. Until that happens, you're probably right. It will die a slow death.

well there , u realy have no idea what u are talking about, the locals are the ones that make the trailes,,,,,, southan people dont buy there permits from northan clubs,,,,,,,,, if u ride northan ontario u will see durning the week or weekend it all people from out town, the amont of (locals ) as u say , is not enoff permits to support this area. not eververy persone in the north snowmobiles,,, likely only about half.

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well there , u realy have no idea what u are talking about, the locals are the ones that make the trailes,,,,,, southan people dont buy there permits from northan clubs,,,,,,,,, if u ride northan ontario u will see durning the week or weekend it all people from out town, the amont of (locals ) as u say , is not enoff permits to support this area. not eververy persone in the north snowmobiles,,, likely only about half.

Oh I understand perfectly. It's you who doesn't want to accept reality. If locals don't buy, there won't be trails. I'm talking about every one who rides the trails.

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well there , u realy have no idea what u are talking about, the locals are the ones that make the trailes,,,,,, southan people dont buy there permits from northan clubs,,,,,,,,, if u ride northan ontario u will see durning the week or weekend it all people from out town, the amont of (locals ) as u say , is not enoff permits to support this area. not eververy persone in the north snowmobiles,,, likely only about half.

 

I have heard from many in that area that a large number of the locals simply don't buy a trail pass and still ride the trails saying there aren't any consequences to not buying one so why would I. I have no doubt there are some who ride from other areas on the weekend however it is just that a weekend. How many will drive for example 6.5 hours one way from Barrie to Timmins to go sledding JUST for a weekend when there are other good riding areas closer. You suggested that half of the locals sled. The population of Timmins is 43,165. With a family of 4 that would be 10,791 families. If half of those families had one sled that would be 5,395 permits for just Timmins alone. If they sold 5,000 permits from Timmins alone I would suspect the club would be self sustainable.

 

How many permits do they actually sell. I wonder what percentage of the population it would represent.

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It's a different economic atmosphere.  The people in the north really want us there.  It's not about who is buying permits and where, it's about the survival of this whole sport, this industry for all of you.  If they're not buying permits like they once had been, it's because they can't.  The poachers will still be poachers regardless of the location.  And yes, if people don't have money, they will be more likely to take advantage of that which they can.  How much do you think the threat of a $$$$ fine would be to encourage permit sales?  There simply aren't enough resources to babysit every trail every where.  Then you have the other side of it; those that can afford the permit price but figure; I'll just play the odds, if they catch me I'll buy one.

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Interesting how the shift is already starting that some here think that if OFSC still fails, with this early early cost reduction, that it is then the fault of the locals that still did not buy trail passes. But those thinking that fail to realize how much land mass the north has that can be used for snowmobile riding without any need for the OFSC product with their table top surface trails. Whether it is Timmins or Kap or Elliot Lake or Wawa or even the out lying area of Sudbury.....these folks can start their machines and ride out their driveways on snow covered side streets and go to their friends or go to the store or go to the bush or lake without ever needing the OFSC product. So whether there is 5000 snowmachine owners in Timmins and only 500 buy OFSC trail permits , then the other 90% decided they don't need your product. Yes maybe in the south your math can be utilized because of so much private land and so choices of where to ride causes only alternative to need OFSc trails. However up in north you need to want to "tour ride" and that is not the majority of the snowmachine owners priority. As stated well on other threads , there are different kinds of snowmachine sport customers and in the north the customer needs are different. IF OFSC fails it will be because your product was not needed in the north. Don't blame the north locals , maybe instead try to convince them about the joys and thrills of trail riding so that they expand their horizons of just using their machines for getting from point A to B in town or fishing.

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I have never seen a table top trail that wasn't groomed. Ungroomed trails are mogul city.

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Interesting how the shift is already starting that some here think that if OFSC still fails, with this early early cost reduction, that it is then the fault of the locals that still did not buy trail passes. But those thinking that fail to realize how much land mass the north has that can be used for snowmobile riding without any need for the OFSC product with their table top surface trails. Whether it is Timmins or Kap or Elliot Lake or Wawa or even the out lying area of Sudbury.....these folks can start their machines and ride out their driveways on snow covered side streets and go to their friends or go to the store or go to the bush or lake without ever needing the OFSC product. So whether there is 5000 snowmachine owners in Timmins and only 500 buy OFSC trail permits , then the other 90% decided they don't need your product. Yes maybe in the south your math can be utilized because of so much private land and so choices of where to ride causes only alternative to need OFSc trails. However up in north you need to want to "tour ride" and that is not the majority of the snowmachine owners priority. As stated well on other threads , there are different kinds of snowmachine sport customers and in the north the customer needs are different. IF OFSC fails it will be because your product was not needed in the north. Don't blame the north locals , maybe instead try to convince them about the joys and thrills of trail riding so that they expand their horizons of just using their machines for getting from point A to B in town or fishing.

Amen!  What a great post.  What's good for us isn't necessarily good for them.  It simply doesn't apply.  It's an entirely different atmosphere.

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Interesting how the shift is already starting that some here think that if OFSC still fails, with this early early cost reduction, that it is then the fault of the locals that still did not buy trail passes. But those thinking that fail to realize how much land mass the north has that can be used for snowmobile riding without any need for the OFSC product with their table top surface trails. Whether it is Timmins or Kap or Elliot Lake or Wawa or even the out lying area of Sudbury.....these folks can start their machines and ride out their driveways on snow covered side streets and go to their friends or go to the store or go to the bush or lake without ever needing the OFSC product. So whether there is 5000 snowmachine owners in Timmins and only 500 buy OFSC trail permits , then the other 90% decided they don't need your product. Yes maybe in the south your math can be utilized because of so much private land and so choices of where to ride causes only alternative to need OFSc trails. However up in north you need to want to "tour ride" and that is not the majority of the snowmachine owners priority. As stated well on other threads , there are different kinds of snowmachine sport customers and in the north the customer needs are different. IF OFSC fails it will be because your product was not needed in the north. Don't blame the north locals , maybe instead try to convince them about the joys and thrills of trail riding so that they expand their horizons of just using their machines for getting from point A to B in town or fishing.

 

 

Good Post!  Much of the angst comes from Sleds on the OFSC trails without permits.  Groomers has provided observations that they see many of these freeloaders during the week.  The assumption has been that they are "Locals"

 

If you can ride the non-OFSC trails, ride the road etc, all the power to you.  That's $$ saved in your pocket.

 

We are having a debate this year as we have an older sled for the kids.  Both can legally ride the trails this year....but will they?  So do we fork out $140 for trail pass that may not be used?  I get it.  Don't mind paying if we knew they would get some use of it.  Otherwise, its cottage roads, and lake travels.  :)

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Interesting how the shift is already starting that some here think that if OFSC still fails, with this early early cost reduction, that it is then the fault of the locals that still did not buy trail passes. But those thinking that fail to realize how much land mass the north has that can be used for snowmobile riding without any need for the OFSC product with their table top surface trails. Whether it is Timmins or Kap or Elliot Lake or Wawa or even the out lying area of Sudbury.....these folks can start their machines and ride out their driveways on snow covered side streets and go to their friends or go to the store or go to the bush or lake without ever needing the OFSC product. So whether there is 5000 snowmachine owners in Timmins and only 500 buy OFSC trail permits , then the other 90% decided they don't need your product. Yes maybe in the south your math can be utilized because of so much private land and so choices of where to ride causes only alternative to need OFSc trails. However up in north you need to want to "tour ride" and that is not the majority of the snowmachine owners priority. As stated well on other threads , there are different kinds of snowmachine sport customers and in the north the customer needs are different. IF OFSC fails it will be because your product was not needed in the north. Don't blame the north locals , maybe instead try to convince them about the joys and thrills of trail riding so that they expand their horizons of just using their machines for getting from point A to B in town or fishing.

So tell me. What drove the formation of the clubs and the creation of the trails in the north in the first place those many years ago? Locals seemed to want the trails back then when one can only assume the opportunities to ride places that didn't have maintained trails were even greater.

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Probably because a small group of riders, wanted to go faster on the trails and go from town to town. But just because a small group wants to do something doesn't mean the majority need it. If I love classic cars and love to cruise the streets on a Saturday night with the wife, it does not mean I should be pressured to join the local Car Classic club . To each his own. If the product the club has interests me enough I will.

Now add to that the complication for Snowmobile clubs in North, like when I lived in Elliot Lake a few decades ago, when newlky established Snowbirds basically confiscated crown land logging roads and trails that in the summer were used to access lakes , and in the winter were used by us folks with 250 Elans to access those same lakes. All of a sudden we were not allowed on those trails without paying for permit. We did not need the trails groomed , we were happy to go 10 miles an hour down bumpy trails to get to our lakes. Fortunately back then exceptions for ice fishing still applied and so we would utilize. I imagine that happened all over Northern Ontario back then. So fast forward to today and I imagine some of the locals still have a bad impression of OFSC. .....but the machines have got faster and maybe OFSC can convince some more of the old locals to switch. I have long since moved away from Elliot Lake but if I moved back to retire, I doubt even then I would need to use their product (unless direct shortest route to my favorite lake ) But around here I don't need the OFSC product at all. I can ride the snow packed rural roads right to my lakes if need be.

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From what I have noticed - one of the biggest issues with piracy in the north - is who is the ones that will enforce it?

 

On the roads or in town - you have a guy that is hired for the task.

In Michigan - either the State Highway Patrol, or the DNR will patrol. (My '96 Doo was originally a Mich Hwy Patrol machine)

 

But in the northern towns, this falls back on the club basically. 

Many (but not enough) of the volunteers there are business owners that service that sector.

How doo you fine a guy for riding w/o a tag when he is riding a sled that he bought and buys parts from you?

 

Is the Subway restaurant guy gunna want to piss off a local?

 

Now a motel owner may not be quite so concerned?

So what - he is the guy that gets stuck with pissing off the locals?

I understand that they are freeloaders, and we all are funding these types anyways.... ????

 

Or what if it is some out of towners that are trying to run under the radar, and they WERE planning to stay at that guys motel?

 

 

Or - maybe in my case. I have bought tags all but two yrs for nearly the last 20. If we ride, we don't get on groomed trails much if we can help it. So I buy two tags, and on an odd occassion I have brought my daughter along. I have never bought a tag for her sled. Illegal?  Sure. But I know that I have paid way more per klick that we have traveled all season (let alone the wee bit on trail) as compared to what one normal trail guy would run on one sled in the same time slot. 

 

These days I buy tags more out of "right of passage" (since I am a Yankee) than anything b/c I seldom ride a groomed trail anymore. 

ESPECIALLY since Algoma is closed for business. 

 

.

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From what I have noticed - one of the biggest issues with piracy in the north - is who is the ones that will enforce it?

 

On the roads or in town - you have a guy that is hired for the task.

In Michigan - either the State Highway Patrol, or the DNR will patrol. (My '96 Doo was originally a Mich Hwy Patrol machine)

 

But in the northern towns, this falls back on the club basically. 

Many (but not enough) of the volunteers there are business owners that service that sector.

How doo you fine a guy for riding w/o a tag when he is riding a sled that he bought and buys parts from you?

 

Is the Subway restaurant guy gunna want to piss off a local?

 

Now a motel owner may not be quite so concerned?

So what - he is the guy that gets stuck with pissing off the locals?

I understand that they are freeloaders, and we all are funding these types anyways.... ????

 

Or what if it is some out of towners that are trying to run under the radar, and they WERE planning to stay at that guys motel?

 

 

Or - maybe in my case. I have bought tags all but two yrs for nearly the last 20. If we ride, we don't get on groomed trails much if we can help it. So I buy two tags, and on an odd occassion I have brought my daughter along. I have never bought a tag for her sled. Illegal?  Sure. But I know that I have paid way more per klick that we have traveled all season (let alone the wee bit on trail) as compared to what one normal trail guy would run on one sled in the same time slot. 

 

These days I buy tags more out of "right of passage" (since I am a Yankee) than anything b/c I seldom ride a groomed trail anymore. 

ESPECIALLY since Algoma is closed for business. 

 

.

Thank you for supporting the sport

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So tell me. What drove the formation of the clubs and the creation of the trails in the north in the first place those many years ago? Locals seemed to want the trails back then when one can only assume the opportunities to ride places that didn't have maintained trails were even greater.

I can't speak for everywhere, but I know that around here, there were a few who saw the value in having a groomed system, for different reasons.

Our club was initially formed so that a group of guys could hold ice drags and get insurance coverage.  Later, others decided that they wanted a land trail between Nipigon and Red Rock, instead of crossing the ice.  Later, in the SNOTRAC years, yet another group thought that linking to the provincial system would bring in tourisim $$.  And, for $80.00, lots of folks bought into it.  A  doctor friend of mine bought two permits every year, just to support the idea, as he didn't even own a snowmobile.  This is when I joined the club.  I helped to lay out the trails and help the club navigate thruogh the government environmental assessment processes.  We got our trails built, snowmobiling was a big deal.  Our club had over 200 members!  But... the tourists didn't come in enough numbers, so the motels & resturants reduced their support.  Then the permit price rose, people opted out as they hit their personal thresholds.  After all, there are still plenty of places to snowmobile without using the OFSC trails.  Then the economy tanked, and most folks who had the disposable income and the desire to sled left town looking for work...loss of permits and loss of volunteers.  Then, we had a couple of poor snow winters coupled with even more permit price increases, and that was the end of things here in Nipigon.   There's still plenty of snowmobiling going on, but now it's back-country stuff.  Kids (I call them kids) on long track snowmobiles trying to see how deep, or how high they can go and not get stuck.  Guys like me that go fishing or out to camp for the weekend.

To answer your inital question.  Times changed, priorites changed, population demographics changed.  Speaking for myself, I'm happy sledding the way I do.  I don't think I'd buy a permit anymore even if there were trails around here.  On the flip side.  If there were folks here who wanted to ressurect the OFSC trails, I would be happy for them.

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good post BP. Ski

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Great post BP.  I always wanted to get to Nipigon, never quite made it.  The group got as far as Marathon on year then had to go north because of the conditions.   I find it hard to believe, even in today's economy, that there isn't enough support for the northern touring type riding.  It wouldn't take many, while these areas are remote, the trails don't require frequent grooming.  There are fewer riders and the trails are less technical, they last longer after being groomed.  I know I'm the minority, but I still believe it's not in the best interest of snowmobiling to allow these trails to continue to close.  The south will continue to struggle with landowners issues, opposition to the "hazard" (tree huggers), and marginal snowfall and temps.  While the people in the north welcome us with open arms.

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Great post BP.  I always wanted to get to Nipigon, never quite made it.  The group got as far as Marathon on year then had to go north because of the conditions.   I find it hard to believe, even in today's economy, that there isn't enough support for the northern touring type riding.  It wouldn't take many, while these areas are remote, the trails don't require frequent grooming.  There are fewer riders and the trails are less technical, they last longer after being groomed.  I know I'm the minority, but I still believe it's not in the best interest of snowmobiling to allow these trails to continue to close.  The south will continue to struggle with landowners issues, opposition to the "hazard" (tree huggers), and marginal snowfall and temps.  While the people in the north welcome us with open arms.

 

Man - I'm telling you, there aint Jack for traffic west of Hearst up on top.

Never seen it.

 

..and about the same on D west of Marathon. (on a good snow year)

 

 

If you took the Yanks out of the pic - there never would have been much traffic from The Soo up to Hearst int he first place.

That whole area was Yanks - just as y'all from S Ontario support Sudbury on up to Cochran/Kap.

 

Thunder Bay is a black friggin' hole as far as sledding goes. They have legislated them right out of town, and haven't had a feeder trail out of their town in many years, and completely blew out the "Circle Tour" around Superior. Since they broke the circle - no-body has any call to ride that way anymore.

 

It would take a lot to keep the trails on D west up, but you are right that A west would seem to be a LOT cheaper / klick.

On D west - around Marathon - they have hitching posts anchored in to winch the groomer up over the hills! (gotta love it!) 

 

Yanks were all over comming up when the trails were good, the gas was cheap(er), (at least for the truck) the tags were semi reasonable, and we had a good exchange rate. 

These days?

 

..and besides - who's got as much disposable income anymore?

 

.

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it's not so much the cost of grooming once or twice per season after the trail is open..... it is the cost, man hours, and fuel to open the trail each year. and then brush, trim them for passage every year. this area has alder and poplar growth that will choke a bush road closed in a matter of 2-3 years, making it all but impassible.

 

look at loop 2 or 3 and the moose loop in Dub? or the loops on trail 3 and 7 in wawa. they will be choked to impassible almost every other year if not trimmed back and used. i know, i have cut them back open. 

 

that is why bp, myself and others warn about, "we will wait and open them up later". with permits ending, and then needing to recut trails open, you are starting over, and no one wants to bite off that task and chew on it. especialy with no help, and no commitment of riders (both tourist and local).

 

the big main roads dont need alot of brushing but, they need grading and creek crossing work every year. and those roads may not be available to us much longer as the wood industry, and the mills, comes back on line.

 

there really is no easy solution but, if something isnt looked into, the ofsc trails will not be represented north of the soo and west of sudbury very much longer. Ski

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I see it too Ski, it's really too bad.  The future of touring, as you have accurately depicted, is not bright, but it doesn't end there; "A" trail through Temagami has always been trouble opening, "C" trail has had its share of recent trouble. So not only are the areas west of Sudbury are in question so are those to the north of both Sudbury and North Bay.  I'll keep coming up as long as I can do a 600 mile weekend and/or 1000 mile loop.

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Great post BP.  I always wanted to get to Nipigon, never quite made it.  The group got as far as Marathon on year then had to go north because of the conditions.   I find it hard to believe, even in today's economy, that there isn't enough support for the northern touring type riding.  It wouldn't take many, while these areas are remote, the trails don't require frequent grooming.  There are fewer riders and the trails are less technical, they last longer after being groomed.  I know I'm the minority, but I still believe it's not in the best interest of snowmobiling to allow these trails to continue to close.  The south will continue to struggle with landowners issues, opposition to the "hazard" (tree huggers), and marginal snowfall and temps.  While the people in the north welcome us with open arms.

Akron - if you had gotten west of Marathon you'd have encountered the MOST technical piece of trail in the north, lot less. 

I can't imagine the work it took to groom that section.  First rode it in '99 when we did a loop around Superior starting here in Wisconsin.  It had to be nearly the last year Thunder Bay had a trail thru town.  Simply closing Thunder Bay was the death knell for OFSC from Nipigon to White River.  It just took 10 years to take final effect.

 

Its all about time and money.  All of us have less each year it seems.

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Akron - if you had gotten west of Marathon you'd have encountered the MOST technical piece of trail in the north, lot less. 

I can't imagine the work it took to groom that section.  First rode it in '99 when we did a loop around Superior starting here in Wisconsin.  It had to be nearly the last year Thunder Bay had a trail thru town.  Simply closing Thunder Bay was the death knell for OFSC from Nipigon to White River.  It just took 10 years to take final effect.

 

Its all about time and money.  All of us have less each year it seems.

 

 

..and it has one of the most expensive bridges in that dead area as well. 

Very piss poor investment on the Queens part.

 

 

.

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