Trakmaps no longer available in Ontario?

[Strong Farmer]

On 9/26/2023 at 8:11 PM, signfan said:

The argument would be atv's in the off season.  Its either an atv issue or an insurance liability issue or both.  Not snowmobiliers riding closed trails.

The thing is in south we aren’t losing many trails to trespassing atviers. 
It’s snowmobiles that don’t stay on trail and wonder, take short cuts etc that cause most of trail closures. Some are caused by crop damage and poor snow conditions too. These trails have crops in field until November so not even passable on an atv. No one going to take 15k atv and run over 10 foot corn on it 🤣. 

[signfan]

1 hour ago, Strong Farmer said:

The thing is in south we aren’t losing many trails to trespassing atviers. 
It’s snowmobiles that don’t stay on trail and wonder, take short cuts etc that cause most of trail closures. Some are caused by crop damage and poor snow conditions too. These trails have crops in field until November so not even passable on an atv. No one going to take 15k atv and run over 10 foot corn on it 🤣. 

Yeah maybe so.  Completely different story in cottage country.  This is an issue there too, but I'd say ATV's are still the major issue causing closures in areas that are north of the farm belt.

[Strong Farmer]

7 hours ago, signfan said:

Yeah maybe so.  Completely different story in cottage country.  This is an issue there too, but I'd say ATV's are still the major issue causing closures in areas that are north of the farm belt.

I see. Lots of it is crown land isn’t it. Just lake access that are private sometimes, ie thru property lots to get access for sledding? 

[Spiderman]

1 hour ago, Strong Farmer said:

I see. Lots of it is crown land isn’t it. Just lake access that are private sometimes, ie thru property lots to get access for sledding? 

Way north for Crown land.

Pretty much all of Muskoka riding is on private property

[Panther340]

1 hour ago, Strong Farmer said:

I see. Lots of it is crown land isn’t it. Just lake access that are private sometimes, ie thru property lots to get access for sledding? 

Nope ....even around Sault North to Wawa has much private land, many complete townships are private owned by logging interests. Sault East to Bruce Mines mostly private , ( we have to go east of hwy 638 to hunt deer or birds on crown land ) 

[signfan]

1 hour ago, Strong Farmer said:

I see. Lots of it is crown land isn’t it. Just lake access that are private sometimes, ie thru property lots to get access for sledding? 

That thought right there is the issue.

[stoney]

Crown land discussion on here has come up before, there is a map that shows it and surprisingly, a lot less than people "think" there is.

 

Between stupid people doing stupid things and the ever growing overreach by the powers that be, can you really be surprised that people have become overly sensitive about "their" property limiting what they used to give so freely access to use. 

[Strong Farmer]

1 hour ago, stoney said:

Crown land discussion on here has come up before, there is a map that shows it and surprisingly, a lot less than people "think" there is.

 

Between stupid people doing stupid things and the ever growing overreach by the powers that be, can you really be surprised that people have become overly sensitive about "their" property limiting what they used to give so freely access to use. 

Property owner gets nothing but a mess. Can you blame them. Most do it for generosity of community for recreation purposes.
Price of property we are doomed if we think we can continue to have free access to it. More and more foreign owners come in, no way access will continue 🤣. 
 

[Spiderman]

16 minutes ago, Strong Farmer said:

Property owner gets nothing but a mess. Can you blame them. Most do it for generosity of community for recreation purposes.
Price of property we are doomed if we think we can continue to have free access to it. More and more foreign owners come in, no way access will continue 🤣. 
 

Hence the OFSC doing everything they can within their abilities to take care of, and protect that access.

[Strong Farmer]

11 minutes ago, Spiderman said:

Hence the OFSC doing everything they can within their abilities to take care of, and protect that access.

I know but then more people will leave sport over limited access to maps. Double edge sword. I personally don’t think trespassing and eliminating map ususge in off season has a direct connection to trespassing. People that go out and do it will continue. 

[stoney]

Agreed - I think this decision on trakmaps was not well thought out, executed well or communicated very well for those that use and relied on them year after year. 

But, is that the reason or issue (off season use) or is it the liability of not having a live data base using trakmaps - pretty sure the blurb posted recently was to do with not having live active database on open or closed trails, than yellow or green I am sure.

[crazihouse]

On 9/19/2023 at 11:05 AM, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

12 minutes ago, stoney said:

Agreed - I think this decision on trakmaps was not well thought out, executed well or communicated very well for those that use and relied on them year after year. 

But, is that the reason or issue (off season use) or is it the liability of not having a live data base using trakmaps - pretty sure the blurb posted recently was to do with not having live active database on open or closed trails, than yellow or green I am sure.

 Chiming in to say that this decision was unilaterally taken by the OFSC, not by TrakMaps.

 

[Spiderman]

21 minutes ago, stoney said:

Agreed - I think this decision on trakmaps was not well thought out, executed well or communicated very well for those that use and relied on them year after year. 

But, is that the reason or issue (off season use) or is it the liability of not having a live data base using trakmaps - pretty sure the blurb posted recently was to do with not having live active database on open or closed trails, than yellow or green I am sure.

Based on the limited I know and/or have read, perhaps communicated - but without being on the inside and having knowledge of all that went on, don't believe it would be fair to say not well thought out, and not well executed.

 

I know I am the one-off/exception to the norm here - but i have never heard of it until I read it here - I don't use that stuff and could care less about it.

 

If you're quitting sledding over a digital map - you have the issue - not the other way around. imo

[stoney]

14 minutes ago, Spiderman said:

Based on the limited I know and/or have read, perhaps communicated - but without being on the inside and having knowledge of all that went on, don't believe it would be fair to say not well thought out, and not well executed.

 

I know I am the one-off/exception to the norm here - but i have never heard of it until I read it here - I don't use that stuff and could care less about it.

 

If you're quitting sledding over a digital map - you have the issue - not the other way around. imo

No skin in this game either but for those that do, the general consensus that’s been shared is they did not know this was coming making it poorly executed, communicated and that leads to poorly thought about. 
 

100% agree if this is a reason to stop what you do, no different than a land owner trying to find reasons to pull the plug….

[Spiderman]

29 minutes ago, stoney said:

No skin in this game either but for those that do, the general consensus that’s been shared is they did not know this was coming making it poorly executed, communicated and that leads to poorly thought about. 
 

100% agree if this is a reason to stop what you do, no different than a land owner trying to find reasons to pull the plug….

 

Unless any of the ones that did not know it was coming were required to know ahead of time- than I don't see an issue.

Why a consumer/user would think they should be aware of private contract renewal details with a third party is not something I would concern myself with either. 

 

The best you'd get is that I am sorry you liked using the product - but we're no longer supporting it and that's it. 

My work does it to us all the time with equipment, vehicles, you name it - we don't get a heads up - we don't get a say - and that's it.

 

Move on

 

 

 

[Yukon]

I remember a time when when the world of snowmobiling didn't want to embrace the digital era. That were all up in arms, when we left the text based trail status updates.

 

Trail -2023 - open- from uncle stuckys outhouse, to the big tree at shits creek..

 

This wasn't a knee jerk reaction, and we have some very good people leading this volunteer driven organization.

 

Insurance, risk management and liabilty are all very real. 

 

Always check the interactive trail guide for what trails are available for access!

[signfan]

32 minutes ago, Yukon said:

I remember a time when when the world of snowmobiling didn't want to embrace the digital era. That were all up in arms, when we left the text based trail status updates.

 

Trail -2023 - open- from uncle stuckys outhouse, to the big tree at shits creek..

 

This wasn't a knee jerk reaction, and we have some very good people leading this volunteer driven organization.

 

Insurance, risk management and liabilty are all very real. 

 

Always check the interactive trail guide for what trails are available for access!

I hear you, but something is off in Ontario.  How can it be so different on these issues jumping just one or two provinces in any direction of Ontario.  Go to Quebec, New Brunswick or Nova Scotia and you get gps maps and groomer tracking.  There volunteers are focused on delivering an exceptional product while our volunteers are focused on defending the insurance companies interest.  It was frustrating to be involved with and is frustrating to see.  The organization has great people.  But way too much effort is going to risk management.

[Spiderman]

6 minutes ago, signfan said:

I hear you, but something is off in Ontario.  How can it be so different on these issues jumping just one or two provinces in any direction of Ontario.  Go to Quebec, New Brunswick or Nova Scotia and you get gps maps and groomer tracking.  There volunteers are focused on delivering an exceptional product while our volunteers are focused on defending the insurance companies interest.  It was frustrating to be involved with and is frustrating to see.  The organization has great people.  But way too much effort is going to risk management.

 

They all have different laws and litigation procedures when it comes to dealing with personal injury via snowmobile accidents and how tort claims are allowed to proceed.

 

It's not apples to apples and that is a big part of what is misunderstood.

 

I would put to you they are defending the OFSC, their partners, and their memberships interests before they are that of the insurer.

I am speculating -but I bet the OFSC has a fairly sizeable SIR

[signfan]

38 minutes ago, Spiderman said:

 

They all have different laws and litigation procedures when it comes to dealing with personal injury via snowmobile accidents and how tort claims are allowed to proceed.

 

It's not apples to apples and that is a big part of what is misunderstood.

 

I would put to you they are defending the OFSC, their partners, and their memberships interests before they are that of the insurer.

I am speculating -but I bet the OFSC has a fairly sizeable SIR

You're right on the SIR.  Still begs the question what could those volunteers hours be doing instead of risk management paperwork?  If $167 per permit is volunteer hours what percentage of that goes to risk management?  I bet you the dollar value is large.  Instead of 4 hrs taking the signage course for the 15th time not learning anything wouldn't that time be better spent actually installing signs?  The legal questions are much larger than snowmobiling.  What makes Ontario so special?  We pay through the nose for insurance here vs the rest of the country.  Are accident victims better off here after the fact?  

[Spiderman]

7 minutes ago, signfan said:

You're right on the SIR.  Still begs the question what could those volunteers hours be doing instead of risk management paperwork?  If $167 per permit is volunteer hours what percentage of that goes to risk management?  I bet you the dollar value is large.  Instead of 4 hrs taking the signage course for the 15th time not learning anything wouldn't that time be better spent actually installing signs?  The legal questions are much larger than snowmobiling.  What makes Ontario so special?  We pay through the nose for insurance here vs the rest of the country.  Are accident victims better off here after the fact?  

 

 

I can tell you the one thing I would like to see change.

I would move to have Snowmobile insurance not fall under the OAP.........

I would like to see where it has it's own insurance - which would be tailored to off-road use only. Sleds are not cars, do not operate under the conditions in any way shape or form like cars - and should not be "lumped" in as such.

Boats aren't - so why are sleds?

 

No standard 1st party injury benefits - unless purchased by the user i.e.- opt in - opt out ( choose you risk level )

No tort actions permitted for any use/operation of a sled ( Quebec with vehicles..... ) while riding on a prescribed OFSC trail - legislated - statue barred.

 

These steps would save snowmobiling in numerous ways.

 

Unfortunately - it won't happen - because sledding is small potatoes in the bigger picture to those who don't care about it.

 

 

 

 

[zoso]

5 minutes ago, Spiderman said:

 

 

I can tell you the one thing I would like to see change.

I would move to have Snowmobile insurance not fall under the OAP.........

I would like to see where it has it's own insurance - which would be tailored to off-road use only. Sleds are not cars, do not operate under the conditions in any way shape or form like cars - and should not be "lumped" in as such.

Boats aren't - so why are sleds?

 

No standard 1st party injury benefits - unless purchased by the user i.e.- opt in - opt out ( choose you risk level )

No tort actions permitted for any use/operation of a sled ( Quebec with vehicles..... ) while riding on a prescribed OFSC trail - legislated - statue barred.

 

These steps would save snowmobiling in numerous ways.

 

Unfortunately - it won't happen - because sledding is small potatoes in the bigger picture to those who don't care about it.

 

 

 

 

Spiderman for premier!!!

[barberch]

I sure hope there are no paper maps found being given out by the Clubs/ Districts/ OFSC at the snowmobile shows this year. It would be terrible if a rider was using the paper maps  and riding on closed trails because they didn’t check the online status. 

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

10 minutes ago, barberch said:

I sure hope there are no paper maps found being given out by the Clubs/ Districts/ OFSC at the snowmobile shows this year. It would be terrible if a rider was using the paper maps  and riding on closed trails because they didn’t check the online status. 

You will likely be disappointed. I was told a week ago that our club would be picking up maps from the District in the next couple of weeks.

[Spiderman]

1 hour ago, barberch said:

I sure hope there are no paper maps found being given out by the Clubs/ Districts/ OFSC at the snowmobile shows this year. It would be terrible if a rider was using the paper maps  and riding on closed trails because they didn’t check the online status. 

On-line status is a “guide”, and can still be checked daily.

 

Did they say they were taking it down? Did I miss that?

[barberch]

Just now, Spiderman said:

On-line status is a “guide”, and can still be checked daily.

 

Did they say they were taking it down? Did I miss that?

Exactly! While using Trakmaps, the online status can still be checked daily too! 

 

59 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

You will likely be disappointed. I was told a week ago that our club would be picking up maps from the District in the next couple of weeks.