Heating cottage with basement throughout winter

[Ox]

On 9/7/2021 at 10:34 AM, stoney said:

A little more info on why I am asking this......we are looking at cottages and one of interest has come up that happens to have a basement that is partially finished and the other half is the utility room. The previous owner lived here year round.

Having a cottage with a basement is not on our checklist as our intentions for winter use is not to have have running water, etc....so I am wondering what people that have a basement / foundation do in the winter as it brings into the equation a concern for me or at least something that needs to be considered.

My initial thought is I would want to keep it heated somewhat when not there to avoid issues with the structure. It has baseboards now that can be left on but adding a furnace would likely be a good investment for this purpose and still heat when there with the wood stove.

Draining the water, etc....before we leave is not an issue to make those modifications to allow that, the water line right now to the cottage is a heated one as well.

 

Thanks for the feedback thus far! 

Boy - with a full and tight basement, I wouldn't expect any need for heat down there to keep from freezing - as long as your pipes aren't right up agginst the foundation.

 

The house here where my shop is has set empty over half of the last 8 years, and I have had one pipe near on the N wall near the west wall that has froze a time'r two while vacant. I never had issues with it when we lived here (25 yrs) but it has started to be an issue on the cold winters now.

 

What I have done is to keep a fan blowing in that direction to keep warmer air circulating in that corner now.

Not been an issue since.

 

With a full basement, as long as it is tight - you will have a "warm" floor, and if you keep snow shoveled around the walls, or maybe you have 2" styrofoam or whatnot?

The basement should be fine.

I would consider that to be a plus for sure!

 

 

.

[Ox]

23 hours ago, Strong Farmer said:

I put furnace in with a heat exchanger to recapture as much waste heat as possible. They are reasonable today. 
i wouldn’t have temperature any lower then 65 F if you don’t have an automatic generator. My uncle has a propane fire place that is old school pilot lights. He leaves those on low when he leaves it. Then If hydro goes out the fire place will create enough heat to keep it from freezing. Good idea to get some remote controlled thermo stats and some kind of temperature alarm warning system too. 
I seen lots of damage when people only heat cottage or house to 50 F when on vacation then power goes out for a day and pipes freeze. If it would have been left at 65 F wouldn’t have happened. Once heated stand by heat isn’t that expensive from a propane furnace or pelleted one. Good luck. 

I have a few ventless LP wall hangers.

I love them!

 

Especially the new I/R units!

 

No hydro to worry aboot at all!

[Ox]

20 hours ago, vooodooo said:

Everyone has given good advice.

My only caveat is the cinder block walls. 

Full disclosure, I am a big fan of poured concrete walls.

Block walls are fine, above grade, in a dry environment.

Many codes say how tall and where,  the block wall needs to be filled with concrete/cement. 

A few years ago I did a pour at one of these block walls. Code said only after an 8 foot high wall, above grade.

That fills in the blocks, makes it a solid wall.

My previous house, buddy did a block wall for the garage. No filler in the blocks.

Water got in it, froze and blew the adhesion from block to block.

You literally could lean on the wood wall and the block below would move.

Ended up locking in the wall to the reinforced floor I poured.

Water is nasty, frozen water is super nasty.

 

 

The building where the original (90's) store was at in Searchmont had a cinder block basement.

Back a round 2002 (plus or minus) the wall fell in and the basement filled up (?) with sand.

 

I agree, not a fan of cinder block either, but if you are a long ways from a concrete facility, it makes it harder to go poured.

 

[Strong Farmer]

16 minutes ago, Ox said:

I have a few ventless LP wall hangers.

I love them!

 

Especially the new I/R units!

 

No hydro to worry aboot at all!

That’s handy any pictures? 

[vooodooo]

12 minutes ago, Ox said:

The building where the original (90's) store was at in Searchmont had a cinder block basement.

Back a round 2002 (plus or minus) the wall fell in and the basement filled up (?) with sand.

 

I agree, not a fan of cinder block either, but if you are a long ways from a concrete facility, it makes it harder to go poured.

 

Yep, you can't always get a concrete truck to the job. 

You can however mix bags, add rebar vertically to make it better.

Yep, takes lots of bags, but its doable.

Being cheap causes the problems.

I'd do a block wall, if I had too. I'd just make it as strong as possible

[Ox]

This is one of the newer I/R units in my shop office.

 

I have one like it in the house that is usually (preferably) vacant.

I can heat the west side of the house (where the water closet and kitchen is) to 50* all winter on 300 gal of LP (maybe less?) and this is out in the wind.

 

 

[vooodooo]

5 minutes ago, Ox said:

This is one of the newer I/R units in my shop office.

 

I have one like it in the house that is usually (preferably) vacant.

Electric is what it is. A watt is a watt. You can direct the heat, but it's still just math.

I installed in wall 3kw fan forced heaters in both bathrooms, thermostats on the wall, not the ones on the heater.

Upstairs is heated mainly with a gas fireplace, in the master bedroom.

Keeps the master bedroom at any temperature, the rest of the upstairs pretty warm. 

Baseboards in every room too, with individual thermostats.

Guests want it 80F in their room, no problem.

The entire house has a triple split heat pump.

AC through the entire house, and the garage.

Bottom floor is a wood stove, or the heat pump, or baseboard electric.

Wood stove, when fired up just pumps heat, massive heat, gotta open the doors and windows so we don't cook sometimes.

I could probably heat the whole house with the wood stove...

 

[Spiderman]

On 9/7/2021 at 10:34 AM, stoney said:

A little more info on why I am asking this......we are looking at cottages and one of interest has come up that happens to have a basement that is partially finished and the other half is the utility room. The previous owner lived here year round.

Having a cottage with a basement is not on our checklist as our intentions for winter use is not to have have running water, etc....so I am wondering what people that have a basement / foundation do in the winter as it brings into the equation a concern for me or at least something that needs to be considered.

My initial thought is I would want to keep it heated somewhat when not there to avoid issues with the structure. It has baseboards now that can be left on but adding a furnace would likely be a good investment for this purpose and still heat when there with the wood stove.

Draining the water, etc....before we leave is not an issue to make those modifications to allow that, the water line right now to the cottage is a heated one as well.

 

Thanks for the feedback thus far! 

Well, if you're not going to have running water - you're concern should be minimal if anything at all.

I can tell you from a claims standpoint - using Engineers etc. as to what we have done after fire losses and it's minimal if the superstructure is still standing, is closed, and is dry.

There are times we have put hay bales into the basements and/or a very low heat source - but that is in cases where there might be moisture present or the superstructure is either torn down/off - or open and not closed up.

 

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about it - if you are - put a little heat in there and be done with it.

Most of it, by the sounds - is also above grade. Sounds almost exactly like what our old place was like.

 

Call an Engineer for some advice - but if the superstructure is sealed and insulated - you would not need much if anything.

 

 

 

[stoney]

1 hour ago, Spiderman said:

Well, if you're not going to have running water - you're concern should be minimal if anything at all.

I can tell you from a claims standpoint - using Engineers etc. as to what we have done after fire losses and it's minimal if the superstructure is still standing, is closed, and is dry.

There are times we have put hay bales into the basements and/or a very low heat source - but that is in cases where there might be moisture present or the superstructure is either torn down/off - or open and not closed up.

 

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about it - if you are - put a little heat in there and be done with it.

Most of it, by the sounds - is also above grade. Sounds almost exactly like what our old place was like.

 

Call an Engineer for some advice - but if the superstructure is sealed and insulated - you would not need much if anything.

 

 

 

Water concern is an easy thing to get past - drain before leaving & risk is gone or minimal.

Just the foundation is the concern knowing the old owner lived there full time so was always heated to date, which part of me says all will be good & not to worry, but of course if there is an issue, that is a hefty repair bill that rather not deal with - so having some heat on when not there removes that risk & adding a furnace possibly will lower the monthly expense for a few months of the year where it is of a concern.

 

Talking to an Engineer will likely just give me worst case scenario and likely plant more seeds of doubt - hearing from real life examples from people with same situation, personally means a lot more to me, which so far, there are quite a few listed here as well some good feedback based on the situation !

 

[stoney]

6 hours ago, UsedtoSkidoo said:

I put all of my water piping to pex with an access for inside to blow them out with a compressor. Takes ten minutes and interior of pipes are dry

Redid my dads place with pex in the spring when a bunch of copper fittings blew apart when I went up to get water running for him. 
I asked him, “dad, you sure you drained the system last fall”…..he says as far as I know I did…. Lol. 

[probill]

I have a cinder block basement that was built in 94 when I put the addition on. Its on bedrock but uneven. Minimum space is 3 ft and the highest about 6 ft.  The blocks are not filled with cement. I built a mechanical room at one corner and it has all the water connections in there except for the pipes running to the kitchen, bathroom and laundry room. I heated the mechanical room with a baseboard heater (1500 watt) but the room is very well insulated. I have a submersible pump in the lake and run heated lines from the lake to the room and from the room to the septic system about 180 feet away. The main basement is not heated. I have had a thermometer in the basement since it was built as I was worried about the pipes freezing running along the floor. Most of the time we were only up on weekends but I can say that the temp never went below 26F that I saw and that was at a really long cold snap where is was continually cold at night of -20F or colder. Most times the temp is at 30F and above. I never had a pipe freeze. I always drained the water down to the heat room when I left at the end of the weekend as I never wanted to have to worry about something going wrong when I was not there but it only takes seconds to drain. Shut pump off and open all the taps in the cottage then open 2 taps in the basement and drain all the water out of the pipes. Put antifreeze in all the basin traps and shower trap. The basement itself is roughly 24 ft by 28 ft and the heat room is contained in that. Hope this helps.

[Spiderman]

22 hours ago, stoney said:

Water concern is an easy thing to get past - drain before leaving & risk is gone or minimal.

Just the foundation is the concern knowing the old owner lived there full time so was always heated to date, which part of me says all will be good & not to worry, but of course if there is an issue, that is a hefty repair bill that rather not deal with - so having some heat on when not there removes that risk & adding a furnace possibly will lower the monthly expense for a few months of the year where it is of a concern.

 

Talking to an Engineer will likely just give me worst case scenario and likely plant more seeds of doubt - hearing from real life examples from people with same situation, personally means a lot more to me, which so far, there are quite a few listed here as well some good feedback based on the situation !

 

I would keep a little of the electric heat on then and move on. We did it for 18 years without a single issue ever.

I wouldn't bother with adding a furnace in your example, would be a waste of money.

 

 

 

 

[capster59]

We always keep our heat on at around 48-50 F....never had a problem...however a neighbor after 20 years of keeping heat on decided to save so.e money....then next spring excavators digging around foundation to make repairs.

We also have an older type phone system to turn on furnace...good option if u don't have internet...call ahead 5 hours and turns heat on to 1 pre selected temp.

Propane forced air...

[stoney]

1 hour ago, Spiderman said:

I would keep a little of the electric heat on then and move on. We did it for 18 years without a single issue ever.

I wouldn't bother with adding a furnace in your example, would be a waste of money.

 

 

 

 

Thanks - If we end up with this place, that is what we will try first before making any changes.

[stoney]

1 hour ago, UsedtoSkidoo said:

lol. Air compressor takes all the guessing out of the equation.

Yep.....sometimes thing can bite you, or in this case, me as the repair guy......

 

[stoney]

52 minutes ago, capster59 said:

We always keep our heat on at around 48-50 F....never had a problem...however a neighbor after 20 years of keeping heat on decided to save so.e money....then next spring excavators digging around foundation to make repairs.

We also have an older type phone system to turn on furnace...good option if u don't have internet...call ahead 5 hours and turns heat on to 1 pre selected temp.

Propane forced air...

That is my worry, you think all okay if not heated, until one year it is and requires an expense and time that could of been avoided by simply leaving a little heat on in the basement.

[Nutter]

1100sqft cottage, 3 bedroom 1 bath open concept kitchen, dining and living room and 10x8 mud/laundry room addition. 40 inch crawl space on piers, sand ground with 8 mil polly covering it, outer walls in crawl space skirted with wood and 2 inch Styrofoam, under floor is pink fiber held up with stapled strapped Tyvek. Cottage and garage are both 70's 2x4 stick frame, new insulation and vapor barrier when we bought and did a full gut reno on the cottage, also pulled the oil furnace and went to propane, pellet stoves in both cottage and insulated unattached 24x26 garage. We leave the furnace at 58 when were not there, no ducting underneath never had any pipes freeze. Turn the furnace up to 70 and pellet stoves on when we get there, up to temp within the hour and the furnace doesn't run again till about 12-24 hours after we leave (we usually leave the pellet stoves running after we leave till they run out of pellets). 

 

We hang out in the garage living/party room 90% of the time, ceiling fan and window wide open with a fan in it on high blowing heat out, as even on lowest burn setting it's tough to keep it at 70 or under. Once that slab floor in the garage heats up it holds the heat well, usually only 4 days home before heading back up and it stays above freezing in there, usually around 10 deg, I think the coldest I've seen it was 5 deg. 

 

Two 420 tank fills a year and a bag of pellets every 24 - 30 hours for each stove ($6.50 a bag) while were up. Cost for both propane and pellets is $1200 to $1500 a year. Small price to pay for the convenience of leaving it heated and not messing with draining plumbing. Growing up with a family cottage my dad would always shutter the place every week, usually always had to screw with getting the water going, 3 - 4 hours till you could get down to a sweater, furniture and bedding held the damp cold till well into Sat eve LOL 

 

Never bothered to see what our cost would be shuttering every week and re heating from what ever temp it dropped too, I bet it wouldn't be a very big difference. Defiantly not worth the inconveniences to us anyways. 

[signfan]

7 hours ago, Nutter said:

1100sqft cottage, 3 bedroom 1 bath open concept kitchen, dining and living room and 10x8 mud/laundry room addition. 40 inch crawl space on piers, sand ground with 8 mil polly covering it, outer walls in crawl space skirted with wood and 2 inch Styrofoam, under floor is pink fiber held up with stapled strapped Tyvek. Cottage and garage are both 70's 2x4 stick frame, new insulation and vapor barrier when we bought and did a full gut reno on the cottage, also pulled the oil furnace and went to propane, pellet stoves in both cottage and insulated unattached 24x26 garage. We leave the furnace at 58 when were not there, no ducting underneath never had any pipes freeze. Turn the furnace up to 70 and pellet stoves on when we get there, up to temp within the hour and the furnace doesn't run again till about 12-24 hours after we leave (we usually leave the pellet stoves running after we leave till they run out of pellets). 

 

We hang out in the garage living/party room 90% of the time, ceiling fan and window wide open with a fan in it on high blowing heat out, as even on lowest burn setting it's tough to keep it at 70 or under. Once that slab floor in the garage heats up it holds the heat well, usually only 4 days home before heading back up and it stays above freezing in there, usually around 10 deg, I think the coldest I've seen it was 5 deg. 

 

Two 420 tank fills a year and a bag of pellets every 24 - 30 hours for each stove ($6.50 a bag) while were up. Cost for both propane and pellets is $1200 to $1500 a year. Small price to pay for the convenience of leaving it heated and not messing with draining plumbing. Growing up with a family cottage my dad would always shutter the place every week, usually always had to screw with getting the water going, 3 - 4 hours till you could get down to a sweater, furniture and bedding held the damp cold till well into Sat eve LOL 

 

Never bothered to see what our cost would be shuttering every week and re heating from what ever temp it dropped too, I bet it wouldn't be a very big difference. Defiantly not worth the inconveniences to us anyways. 

900 sq ft cottage.  Electric heat and a wood stove.  Our hydro bills run $140 a month in the winter if we are using it most weekends.  $90 a month for the months we aren't there.  Only thing left on is the heated line to the lake and a fridge.   So I figure our heat is costing us $200 a winter (4 months at $50 a month).  The heated line would run regardless of our use.  We do burn wood when there which is work, but no cost as we cut ourselves.  Yes it can be a touch chilly coming in, but we dress accordingly.  About 3 hours for the wood stove to get the place to 20 degrees.  By Hour 5 if you've been feeding it steady you're sitting in your underwear sweating.  An electric blanket solves the cold bed issue in a hurry.  I have the water startup and draining to around 15 mins total.  Has been some trial and error, but it's almost flawless now.  We also haven't bothered with plowing the road.  We have a good Pelican sleigh and bring our stuff in behind the sleds (2 miles from a township plowed lot).  It's not for everyone, but we enjoy the roughing it feeling you get in the winter.  Once we're in it's as comfortable as home and has us right in the middle of the trail system.  I am looking forward to having the wifi thermostats this winter.  Heat will be on by noon on Fridays meaning the place will have had 6 - 8 hrs of heat on in it when we arrive.  Will be interesting to see what that does to the hydro costs.

[stoney]

The layout of the cottage plays a big factor no doubt. 
If I recall details from when Nutter Reno’d the place him and I think a few others have, it was a two story structure in cottage and the  garage too, that will be harder to heat and take longer to heat up vs. a single story open concept with wood stove. 

Lots of good info here though based on what works for each circumstance!

[Nutter]

55 minutes ago, stoney said:

The layout of the cottage plays a big factor no doubt. 
If I recall details from when Nutter Reno’d the place him and I think a few others have, it was a two story structure in cottage and the  garage too, that will be harder to heat and take longer to heat up vs. a single story open concept with wood stove. 

Lots of good info here though based on what works for each circumstance!

The 2 story was our flip cottage/house in Norland Stoney, we finished that 5 years ago, that one was huge, we doubled the size of it, and added an attached garage. We bought this one in 2017 just north Kinmount in Howland Junction right on the rail trail, just a bungalow, intentions were to flip this one too, but we like it there so much it's keeper. 

[Nutter]

8 hours ago, signfan said:

900 sq ft cottage.  Electric heat and a wood stove.  Our hydro bills run $140 a month in the winter if we are using it most weekends.  $90 a month for the months we aren't there.  Only thing left on is the heated line to the lake and a fridge.   So I figure our heat is costing us $200 a winter (4 months at $50 a month).  The heated line would run regardless of our use.  We do burn wood when there which is work, but no cost as we cut ourselves.  Yes it can be a touch chilly coming in, but we dress accordingly.  About 3 hours for the wood stove to get the place to 20 degrees.  By Hour 5 if you've been feeding it steady you're sitting in your underwear sweating.  An electric blanket solves the cold bed issue in a hurry.  I have the water startup and draining to around 15 mins total.  Has been some trial and error, but it's almost flawless now.  We also haven't bothered with plowing the road.  We have a good Pelican sleigh and bring our stuff in behind the sleds (2 miles from a township plowed lot).  It's not for everyone, but we enjoy the roughing it feeling you get in the winter.  Once we're in it's as comfortable as home and has us right in the middle of the trail system.  I am looking forward to having the wifi thermostats this winter.  Heat will be on by noon on Fridays meaning the place will have had 6 - 8 hrs of heat on in it when we arrive.  Will be interesting to see what that does to the hydro costs.

 

That's going to be a game changer.

 

We have high speed internet but I just haven't bothered to put in a wifi thermostat, keeping it at 58 it's less than hour to get up to 70 in the cottage.  But want to do something with the garage since it's where we spend most of our time, it takes a few hours to get up to temp with only a pellet stove. Right now it's a none issue with a buddy down the road hitting the on button for us Thursday or Friday mornings. But I would like to figure out a way to have it turn on via wifi.  

[stoney]

20 minutes ago, Nutter said:

The 2 story was our flip cottage/house in Norland Stoney, we finished that 5 years ago, that one was huge, we doubled the size of it, and added an attached garage. We bought this one in 2017 just north Kinmount in Howland Junction right on the rail trail, just a bungalow, intentions were to flip this one too, but we like it there so much it's keeper. 

Ya, I remember the pictures of it and all the work that went into it.....it was not on the small side for sure.

Good news on the update / relocation, I had no idea.

Stayed on the same general area, but in a much better spot, IMO.

[LuvMyViper]

34 minutes ago, Nutter said:

 

That's going to be a game changer.

 

We have high speed internet but I just haven't bothered to put in a wifi thermostat, keeping it at 58 it's less than hour to get up to 70 in the cottage.  But want to do something with the garage since it's where we spend most of our time, it takes a few hours to get up to temp with only a pellet stove. Right now it's a none issue with a buddy down the road hitting the on button for us Thursday or Friday mornings. But I would like to figure out a way to have it turn on via wifi.  

 

I use these wifi temp and humidity sensors. They work great. I also have the water sensors.  They have all kinds of wifi sensors and on/off switches.

 

From Amazon 

 

WiFi Temperature and Humidity... https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B08PVKLZHC?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

[Nutter]

6 minutes ago, stoney said:

Ya, I remember the pictures of it and all the work that went into it.....it was not on the small side for sure.

Good news on the update / relocation, I had no idea.

Stayed on the same general area, but in a much better spot, IMO.

 

 

It is much better spot, plus no partners in on this one.

 

It's the perfect area for us, just over an hour commute from home, with the Haliburton/Victoria County Rail Trail right at our doorstep. Never worry about snow conditions in the winter, and access to 100's and 100's of km of SxS trails in the off season. Another bonus is road use with the SxS, the only road we can't ride on is HWY 35 south of Minden, everything else is legal, trail connectivity is just as good as sledding with road runs and bridges taking the place of lake running. 

[Nutter]

13 minutes ago, LuvMyViper said:

 

I use these wifi temp and humidity sensors. They work great. I also have the water sensors.  They have all kinds of wifi sensors and on/off switches.

 

From Amazon 

 

WiFi Temperature and Humidity... https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B08PVKLZHC?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

 

Thanks Rick, going to start doing more wifi stuff for piece of mind and convenience. So far we've got a 4 camera set up and a bunch of lighting tapped into our phones. The garage pellet stove is a bit of pita to figure out, I need an electronics guru to tap into the stoves on off circuit in the motherboard, so I can jump it to a wifi switch.