Wildbill Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Clubs from the states have alot of interest. Many from New Hampshire, Maine use puck up truck track conversions for grooming and are interested in moving up to industrial groomers. North America is rather large and has many snowmobile clubs. Industrial groomers are used by others for many different purposes... us dollar may help that / Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 The key reason for leasing vs owning for business is that lease is an operating expense and you claim the full cost of the lease against income. For owning it is a capital expense and only claim the depreciation expense which would be a % of the declining value defined by CRA Exactly. Leases make sense on equipment that deprecates rapidly, since full cost of lease is a write off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted November 28, 2015 Author Share Posted November 28, 2015 Exactly. Leases make sense on equipment that deprecates rapidly, since full cost of lease is a write off. We are a non-profit in the eyes of Revenue Canada, full write-off is not an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PISTON LAKE CRUISER Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Why is that? Is this because the manufactuers know there is no end market for used specialized grooming units and charge an arm and leg for leases? There is a far bigger market for tractors than there is for groomers. this first round to go will be the most worn groomers so the number of keen buyers will be limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted November 28, 2015 Author Share Posted November 28, 2015 What percentage of the consultant/OFSC recommended groomer fleet reduction is being proposed for this season? I do not have my AGM files with me. Hopefully, we are not taking the full 100% leap in the first year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 We are in a tough boat. Buy tractors that are good for some areas and sink in the muskeg in others or have specialized industrial snow groomers that sit for 8 months a year. Tough call for leasing tractors and getting good pricing on snow groomers. Anyone care to guess what may be coming in the form of 16 groomers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Used tractor groomers are worth nothing The Shop Industrial has 3 that they cannot sell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted November 28, 2015 Author Share Posted November 28, 2015 Bill, you are always a guy that shoots straight. Are we going too fast on this Groomer & Trail reorg with the lure of 16 new Groomers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Not sure what each districts targets are. This years target fits D10 . In order to make it work grooming must be done by the district without club borders not the clubs . We can do better . The overall goal is unattainable without seriously affecting trail quality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted November 28, 2015 Author Share Posted November 28, 2015 Thank you Bill, a very positive opinion with the proviso that grooming boundaries need to be a major revision to the club boundary status quo. Should be an interesting December and January. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 And that's why I keep saying geography has to come into play..130-140 k is not attainable in some area without quality suffering drastically. But overall I believe a good plan so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doogirl69 Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Less groomers will = less km's of trails over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Not necessarily but conceivable. New equipment is more efficient and reliable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Less groomers will = less km's of trails over the years.In reality what suits the volunteers and permit buyer that wants to pay under $200 for permit better. 30,000 + km of inconsistently groomed trail or 20-25,000 km of consistently well groomed trail ? Do we really have the need to maintain and stay at 330 pieces of aging equip thats draining our operating cost and volunteer hours ? Or are we better off renewing and consolidating the fleet to groom a system that's manageable and coincides with price point revenue intake ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 How many kilometers were actually open the last two years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 The GPS tracking system was able to identify trails not groomed last season. Clubs are being consulted as to whether their was a specific reason possibly for one season or should these be closed permanently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted November 29, 2015 Author Share Posted November 29, 2015 Nutter (Rick) is correct that we seemed to be now locked in to a $180 Trail Permit that is crippling our fleet and trails. The only saviour has been the relatively low diesel prices. The Cdn $ is hurting badly with respect to new machines and many parts. New groomers are obviously more reliable than 20 year old groomers but in our experience they have had much more $$ spent on them than the older BRs. If you have less groomers looking after the same trails Kms you obviously work the units longer and harder and using the 10,000 hour replacement window you get there earlier so it is not a panacea for a great new world. Trucking companies always have a reserve of rigs just in case the regular rigs have an issue, mechanical, accident or otherwise. The consensus from experienced club people like Bill and Rick feel that this is the way to go as do our B of G. How would you expect the following scenario plays out. District X gets a new groomer and they are not a grooming association. Amongst 10 clubs, 3 old groomers are scrapped or traded in. Club Y gets the Free Groomer. Do they pay the District 30-50% of the total cost of the groomer and drag. How are the 3 clubs who gave up a groomer looked after, especially if lucky Club Y is 100 Kms away. Obviously everyone has to shuffle their grooming runs which has a number of serious issues to resolve in many cases. These issues aren't easily worked out in 2 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Nutter (Rick) is correct that we seemed to be now locked in to a $180 Trail Permit that is crippling our fleet and trails. The only saviour has been the relatively low diesel prices. The Cdn $ is hurting badly with respect to new machines and many parts. New groomers are obviously more reliable than 20 year old groomers but in our experience they have had much more $$ spent on them than the older BRs. If you have less groomers looking after the same trails Kms you obviously work the units longer and harder and using the 10,000 hour replacement window you get there earlier so it is not a panacea for a great new world. Trucking companies always have a reserve of rigs just in case the regular rigs have an issue, mechanical, accident or otherwise. The consensus from experienced club people like Bill and Rick feel that this is the way to go as do our B of G. How would you expect the following scenario plays out. District X gets a new groomer and they are not a grooming association. Amongst 10 clubs, 3 old groomers are scrapped or traded in. Club Y gets the Free Groomer. Do they pay the District 30-50% of the total cost of the groomer and drag. How are the 3 clubs who gave up a groomer looked after, especially if lucky Club Y is 100 Kms away. Obviously everyone has to shuffle their grooming runs which has a number of serious issues to resolve in many cases. These issues aren't easily worked out in 2 months. The only way it will work is a district wide grooming association Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted November 29, 2015 Author Share Posted November 29, 2015 That is exactly the conclusion I have come to as well Bill and this may be the wave of the future. Obviously more difficult for those Districts that have each Club grooming independently, not an easy transition. I don't believe it will be cheaper with new Operations Manager and Operator wages so where do the savings come from? Either we cut trail Kms, grooming hours and cut the fleet and use it more efficiently. Grooming more hours on newer units doesn't fix all of our woes. We need a sustainable plan and hopefully this is a good start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Next year, there will not be any 'standalone clubs' as all the permit money goes to district and they pay all the expenses. The vocal proponents of this brave new world are all members of grooming associations and so expect minor changes but I think that the standalone clubs will have more issues with the delays and lack of local decision making ability when it comes to emergency repairs, especially as the district infrastructure gets up to speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Nutter (Rick) is correct that we seemed to be now locked in to a $180 Trail Permit that is crippling our fleet and trails. The only saviour has been the relatively low diesel prices. The Cdn $ is hurting badly with respect to new machines and many parts. New groomers are obviously more reliable than 20 year old groomers but in our experience they have had much more $$ spent on them than the older BRs. If you have less groomers looking after the same trails Kms you obviously work the units longer and harder and using the 10,000 hour replacement window you get there earlier so it is not a panacea for a great new world. Trucking companies always have a reserve of rigs just in case the regular rigs have an issue, mechanical, accident or otherwise. The consensus from experienced club people like Bill and Rick feel that this is the way to go as do our B of G. How would you expect the following scenario plays out. District X gets a new groomer and they are not a grooming association. Amongst 10 clubs, 3 old groomers are scrapped or traded in. Club Y gets the Free Groomer. Do they pay the District 30-50% of the total cost of the groomer and drag. How are the 3 clubs who gave up a groomer looked after, especially if lucky Club Y is 100 Kms away. Obviously everyone has to shuffle their grooming runs which has a number of serious issues to resolve in many cases. These issues aren't easily worked out in 2 months. I wouldn't say we're locked in into that price point, but we do now know that we can hook more buyers into buying into the trail system regardless of the up coming seasons snow conditions if we operate with that price point in mind. That to me is a good thing for us, fence sitters waiting for snow whether to buy or not buy was a big problem for our operations and being able to forecast our future operations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 The new groomers may be more reliable, but I suspect, with computerized systems, may be much more expensive to repair than a mostly mechanical system, especially for volunteer mechanics. I suspect that many repairs will require professional, and possibly dealer mechanics. Case in point, we needed to replace a windshield this summer at a cost around $500 installed. Speaking to others at the AGM and looking at one of the new groomers with the curved windshield with heated glass, we were told that the heated glass runs about $5600 and the non heated about $3200. Installation costs have to added to both of these prices. We all know how easy it is to repair a new car when the check engine light comes on, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 The new groomers may be more reliable, but I suspect, with computerized systems, may be much more expensive to repair than a mostly mechanical system, especially for volunteer mechanics. I suspect that many repairs will require professional, and possibly dealer mechanics. Case in point, we needed to replace a windshield this summer at a cost around $500 installed. Speaking to others at the AGM and looking at one of the new groomers with the curved windshield with heated glass, we were told that the heated glass runs about $5600 and the non heated about $3200. Installation costs have to added to both of these prices. We all know how easy it is to repair a new car when the check engine light comes on, right? Are you supposed to do something when the check engine light soon comes on? I thought you wait for the check engine light NOW to come on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 Does anyone actually have any official OFSC correspondence on this matter we have been discussing? That is the specifics of what needs to be done in a particular District to be able to warrant the 'Free Groomer'. Whether it is a one, two or three year window or any other specifics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrhz06 Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 So if I'm reading this correctly all grooming will be coordinated at the district level. Along with that all costs, scheduling and responsibility would also fall within the district. If this is the case would the next step be to optimize the district size and boundaries to get the best use out of the available groomers by optimizing grooming routes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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