bbakernbay Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 The OFSC are very likely going to be looking at District boundaries so that each is a feasible unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Brian. Ask your Gov, they have it and should be sharing it Districts will manage the fleet but not coordinating grooming or maintenance. That is still a club thing District re-alignment is somewhere on the list, they mentioned it at AGM and once they decide what is the proper district size I'm sure we ll be told Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrhz06 Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Thanks for clarifying. It will be interesting going forward. May be a bit of a tough transition for some but the concept makes sense from an overhead reduction point of view. My experience has been that a certain degree of centralization has its benefits. The challenge is to find the balance between centralization and individual control. It sounds like they are progressing in a controlled manner. Hoping that this works well and we have a good winter. Now bring on the snow so we can see how this works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Brian. Ask your Gov, they have it and should be sharing it Districts will manage the fleet but not coordinating grooming or maintenance. That is still a club thing District re-alignment is somewhere on the list, they mentioned it at AGM and once they decide what is the proper district size I'm sure we ll be told In order to even approach the goals districts must control all aspects of grooming If district realignment is part of the program it should be done first instead of allowing workable groups to form and then tear them apart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 I am just hoping that this is not too radical in too short a time frame that will cause some excellent Club Executives to say "I'm done" and let someone else carry the ball. Too much in too short a time and really not believing these proposals are that well thought through or even justified based upon my recollection of AGM's direction. We will wait for the details whenever they come down the pipe. Every District is not at the same stage of management nor operating policy. For some it may be easier, others a lot tougher. Hopefully it is a gradual transition. We are not in a desperate situation where we need to risk the very well being of the OFSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 In order to even approach the goals districts must control all aspects of grooming If district realignment is part of the program it should be done first instead of allowing workable groups to form and then tear them apart Bill. Not sure how to coordinate when we have such changing and different snow conditions. Every area needs coordination on its own with the ability to make decisions. Brian, we and several other districts have already made many of the changes necessary for this to work. Once we straighten out grooming efficiencies and get club to realize its not "their groomer" the pain of losing a groomer will ease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2bsledding Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Next year, there will not be any 'standalone clubs' as all the permit money goes to district and they pay all the expenses. The vocal proponents of this brave new world are all members of grooming associations and so expect minor changes but I think that the standalone clubs will have more issues with the delays and lack of local decision making ability when it comes to emergency repairs, especially as the district infrastructure gets up to speed. Oh? So does that mean no longer can online permit purchasers select the "club" they wish to support when buying online? They can only select the District? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Oh? So does that mean no longer can online permit purchasers select the "club" they wish to support when buying online? They can only select the District? I highly doubt it, still need some sort of gauge for per club operational cost forecasting. Plus it's good info for many other aspects of running clubs and districts, and provincial operations. For the most part where people buy their permits does help gauge ridership area to area. And as Faceman said with the many variables within a district that gauge will still be needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I highly doubt it, still need some sort of gauge for per club operational cost forecasting. Plus it's good info for many other aspects of running clubs and districts, and provincial operations. For the most part where people buy their permits does help gauge ridership area to area. And as Faceman said with the many variables within a district that gauge will still be needed. Mike Clewer confirmed to me at the District roadshow it will remain as it is for selecting a club to support. I did mention that its a good way to gage for budgeting.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Everyone seems to focus on snowmobile club = groomer=snowmobile club..I don't get it. We along with another 11 or 12 club in D9 do not have a groomer as we are members of grooming associations. So that's 12-13 clubs who don't need someone chasing: Scheduling and Payroll Groomer logs. Operator training/H&S and RM fuel monitoring/ storage and ordering Groomer maintenance/ meltdown and deicing Groomer repairs at 2am and how many other things a coordinator does? The groomer that does my trails goes inside of 4 different clubs staking/signing boundaries without complaint , And honestly do you really care what groomer and drag are out there at 2am grooming your trails as long as the product being put down is what it should be. A clubs reputation is based on quality of trail ( width, brushed, path), clarity of destination signage, accuracy of regulatory signage as well as smooth trails, There are still many reasons to support "your club" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 What does D9 pay for an Operations Manager to hire, train, schedule, supervise the Groomer Operators? Does that person also do the payroll, review logs and organize the maintenance and repair of the Groomers. What are the Club's responsibilities wrt Groomers? Who looks after winter storage and summer storage. Look forward to hearing how this works in D9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Everyone seems to focus on snowmobile club = groomer=snowmobile club..I don't get it. We along with another 11 or 12 club in D9 do not have a groomer as we are members of grooming associations. So that's 12-13 clubs who don't need someone chasing: Scheduling and Payroll Groomer logs. Operator training/H&S and RM fuel monitoring/ storage and ordering Groomer maintenance/ meltdown and deicing Groomer repairs at 2am and how many other things a coordinator does? The groomer that does my trails goes inside of 4 different clubs staking/signing boundaries without complaint , And honestly do you really care what groomer and drag are out there at 2am grooming your trails as long as the product being put down is what it should be. A clubs reputation is based on quality of trail ( width, brushed, path), clarity of destination signage, accuracy of regulatory signage as well as smooth trails, There are still many reasons to support "your club" So, who does all of the above operations if not the club? Is there a significant number of district volunteers to maintain, schedule, and rescue broken groomers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 So, who does all of the above operations if not the club? Is there a significant number of district volunteers to maintain, schedule, and rescue broken groomers? D5 has groomer associations as well. My area is part of the golden triangle association. Last winter our area was among the best and most consistently groomed trails around. I believe there is four groomers doing around 600 kms of trail roughly. Yes volunteers have rescued and helped groomers before. I believe they have club contacts to call in case of emergency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 Since I started this post I will let you know that the wheels are now turning quickly and Districts and Clubs will likely, or already have received a detailed proposal by way of their District Governor. Our District will be meeting to discuss the OFSC proposal next Monday evening. Unfortunately that is all I can say at this time. There is still value in continuing this topic as I think we need to learn from those Districts or Grooming Associations that are likely ahead of the curve in their grooming operations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 What does D9 pay for an Operations Manager to hire, train, schedule, supervise the Groomer Operators? Does that person also do the payroll, review logs and organize the maintenance and repair of the Groomers. What are the Club's responsibilities wrt Groomers? Who looks after winter storage and summer storage. Look forward to hearing how this works in D9. The hiring, scheduling and supervising is still the responsibility of the grooming association and their coordinators. There is no intention of taking this away from the designated persons. The logs and payroll do come to the district. Storage etc is the club or associations responsibility and the district pays per hour grooming to cover this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted December 1, 2015 Author Share Posted December 1, 2015 Wow, this topic sure ground to a halt in a hurry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 So apparently the deadline for applications is Dec 15th. By then the districts must have submitted not only an application and justification for the new unit but must also have a 5 year business plan attached to show not only need but also proposed grooming efficiencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Wow, this topic sure ground to a halt in a hurry. As long as new groomers don't grind to a hault early I will be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 I said back on page 1 that these decisions are whole lot tougher for some Districts vs others. Finally got the D-1 plan at 3;30pm yesterday. Here are some facts to set the stage. D-1 is composed of 22 clubs, in 15 PSEs. 13 clubs are stand alone grooming clubs and we have 2 grooming associations. The district has 3,994 km of trail (largest in prov) and 50 grooming units (largest in prov) according to the OFSC report. Our current fleet of 50 has 38 of the 213 oldest groomers (highest in prov) in the provincial fleet. The proposed 5 year plan looks like this Year 1- Eliminate 8, Get 1 Year 2- Eliminate 8, Get 3 Year 3- Eliminate 8, Get 4 Year 4- Eliminate 7, Get 4 Year 5- Eliminate 7, Get 5 Grooming Units go from 50 to 29 by Year 5. So here is my concern. The bulk of the units that are supposed to generate all the efficiency we will need to operate the network are not delivered until the end of the plan while the bulk of the supposedly surplus groomers are being removed at the beginning of the plan. We also have only 14 days to finalize agreements with 15 grooming entities on which units are being disposed of and where the new units go. No easy task given the number of players and the 40 plus years of history to overcome. Frankly I am very concerned that we will not achieve the Dec 15th deadline. And before some of you get out the violins, the District knew reductions were coming. Its just no one anticipated the magnitude of the reductions. Anybody else care to share their district challenge? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted December 2, 2015 Author Share Posted December 2, 2015 To provide a detailed commitment to the OFSC in the next 15 days is a Herculean task, particularly when it involves so many independent grooming Clubs such as District 1 has. For those Districts that are Grooming Associations this should be an easier task but for those operating as independent Grooming Clubs a major transformation like you are facing is going to be a difficult undertaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrhz06 Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 WOW, thats huge changes! Going from 50 groomers down to 29 seems quite aggressive. I hope they get the efficiency improvements that they are expecting in their plan but it looks like the biggest challenge will be having to deal with how the changes are done within 15 PSE's. The districts that are set up with grooming associations will have a much easier job. Getting the plan done and communicated within the district then finalizing it by the 15th will be a full time job and is a lot to expect from a volunteer organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 WOW, thats huge changes! Going from 50 groomers down to 29 seems quite aggressive. I hope they get the efficiency improvements that they are expecting in their plan but it looks like the biggest challenge will be having to deal with how the changes are done within 15 PSE's. The districts that are set up with grooming associations will have a much easier job. Getting the plan done and communicated within the district then finalizing it by the 15th will be a full time job and is a lot to expect from a volunteer organization. Everybody wants cheaper permits. This is what happens with that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Everybody wants cheaper permits. This is what happens with that Bill, I agree cheaper permits is part of the problem vis a vie the revenue challenge but an equal contributor is the complete failure of the OFSC on 1 of the four key planks of Frame Work For Change. Remember the Sustainable Funding Plank. What has happened there. Nada. Zilch on the val tag fee and zilch from any other source. So the master plan that was built on 4 key planks and one plank is missing. And while I am on this rant what happened to the other plank called Enforcement. Another strike out. STOP is dead and Trail Patrol is gutted to the point where we are "shaking hands and kissing babies" as somebody put it. So we have a handful of OPP officers patrolling 30,000 plus km of trails. How long before compliance starts to become a real issue. So 2 of the four planks are failures. The Increased Participation plank could be argued a success but I am still not convinced the permit price has as much influence as is being claimed. 3 decent winters in a row has to have had an influence. So the only plank left is the Organizational Effectiveness plank and they are playing that to the nines. And they are going to ram it through regardless of the consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nith Valley Sledder Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 The status quo didn't seem to be working any longer. Being forced into efficiencies sucks for a lot of people but may be the only way to continue to stay alive. Do we have any choice but to try something different? Our governments are spending like drunken sailors (apologies to the sailors) so there is not likely to be a lot of money coming from there. It is either sell more permits or spend what monies we do have more efficiently. The next step will be trail rationalization. That will pull the plug on the volunteer pool as you cut off the trails that allow them to access the system. No point in helping if you have to trailer to the trail. Then the arguments will start is it better to cut trails in the south where there generally is a shorter season but the majority of the permit sales or cut trails in the north that has a longer season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Too bad ofsc couldn't lease some units. I think throwing in some leasing and using those units to do main trails and rack up the hours makes allot of sense. We could get more on the snow sooner with less capital outlay. Works in farming why can't it work here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.