threadman Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 trail from 264 to 267is closed this year due to bridge issues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 i think we are moving too fast on this matter. When you start offering up a Free Groomer to each District with certain conditions attached there is going to be some acrimony and maybe worse. Yes this will be much easier for a District like STP that handles all the grooming but in our District it is every Club for themselves and this takes considerable time and negotiations to bring about a fair solution. Dist 3 operates the same way as you guys do Brian, all independent clubs with no grooming associations, we had our first dist grooming committee meeting last night, with 2 or more member's from each club present. It took all of 15 min to shed 5 groomers and fill any gaps. Then we spent close to another 2 hours looking at how we can further become more efficient, which resulted in us realizing we can easily shed more units. The consensus before the meeting was there is no way we can shed 5 groomers this season .... that changed real fast once everyone was in the same room looking towards the exact same goals..... stretching the permit buyers dollars further to insure the best rider experience we can offer, and at the same time lessening volunteer work load. A big lesson in "just because we've always done it that way doesn't mean there is no room for improvement" was learned by many last night, including me. Having 30+ years of riding under my belt and having ridden in every district except for 17 with club members from those districts many times over. Along with going to AGM for over 10 years and listening to concerns and networking with club members from across the province, and sitting on the provincial trails committee for a term I got to get up close and personal with the whole provincial fleet. Knowing year make model, hours on units, hours groomed, amount of trail km's groomed, when it was groomed and not, the clubs opinion of condition of their units, amount of funds used to operate each groomers ... ect. I saw and can still see there's lots of waste in how we do things in regards to provincial grooming and see where we can streamline things to not only save money and improve trail conditions, but also lesson volunteer workload. I always had to laugh when a dist/club would put in for a refurbishment grant one season and state that unit A was the perfect candidate for a refurb because it's condition was close to excellent minus the few problems for which were the reason for the refurb request. Then the following year the story of unit A would be one of disparate pleading for a new machine because it's always been a piece of junk and never was reliable and too far gone. This actually happened many times over with many many districts and clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 Thanks Ron for the very positive response. Three of our District Executive are meeting tomorrow and I took the liberty of passing along your "Can Do" experience. Looking forward to more input and comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 HNSC has some of the best signed and groomed trails in the district, Nothing to indicate that anything negative will happen. Landowner issues, if that is what you are referring to with road running has no connection to MOTS It is all of the younger generation on long track sleds going where ever they want. Not all young people either, but most of them are or from out of town and don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Not so! If a club/association should sell a groomer now (meaning this year) the money will stay with the club/association. Next year and after, when and if a groomer is sold the money would go to the district OFSC is not trying to take over clubs Also it should be noted that if a club chooses to remove a groomer from their books, and transfer the insurance from OFSC to themselves, it is perfectly acceptable. Not what our Governor told us. All proceeds from groomer disposals go to the district this year and OFSC next year and become part of the funding program for new groomers.And I have heard that from other sources as well. And when you remove all meaningful decision making from the club what meaningful contribution does the club make other than a source of free labor. Grooming decisions will be at the district level and with all permit money at the district level (District PSEs) trail development/maintenance will be ultimately controlled at the District. And make no mistake the District are being standardized in order to pull the strings for the OFSC. This whole organization has gone from being a grass roots controlled organization to centrally run bureaucracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Not what our Governor told us. All proceeds from groomer disposals go to the district this year and OFSC next year and become part of the funding program for new groomers.And I have heard that from other sources as well. And when you remove all meaningful decision making from the club what meaningful contribution does the club make other than a source of free labor. Grooming decisions will be at the district level and with all permit money at the district level (District PSEs) trail development/maintenance will be ultimately controlled at the District. And make no mistake the District are being standardized in order to pull the strings for the OFSC. This whole organization has gone from being a grass roots controlled organization to centrally run bureaucracy. It's totally up to the clubs within the districts how they want to do it this year, keep the cash or pool it within the district. And yes next year all retired groomers and/or assets deriving from them will go back into the provincial pool, and rightfully so, so as to further fund the provincial groomer replacement program. No matter how you slice it it will still be the club volunteers making the decisions, it's not like districts are run by out sourced 3rd parties or aliens from outer space, they are run by the clubs within it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PISTON LAKE CRUISER Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Not what our Governor told us. All proceeds from groomer disposals go to the district this year and OFSC next year and become part of the funding program for new groomers.And I have heard that from other sources as well. And when you remove all meaningful decision making from the club what meaningful contribution does the club make other than a source of free labor. Grooming decisions will be at the district level and with all permit money at the district level (District PSEs) trail development/maintenance will be ultimately controlled at the District. And make no mistake the District are being standardized in order to pull the strings for the OFSC. This whole organization has gone from being a grass roots controlled organization to centrally run bureaucracy. Your negativity surprises me. I believe that District 5 ran last year under much the same setup as is now being put in place for all of the OFSC and from all accounts it worked pretty well given the learning curve. I know the overall quality of grooming on the trail past my place was as good as overall and better on weekends than in many previous years and with higher traffic than usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Your negativity surprises me. I believe that District 5 ran last year under much the same setup as is now being put in place for all of the OFSC and from all accounts it worked pretty well given the learning curve. I know the overall quality of grooming on the trail past my place was as good as overall and better on weekends than in many previous years and with higher traffic than usual. B203 isn't near as busy as it use to be, do to the petersburg link being closed since rebel creek went in. Years ago petro can in Petersburg would run out of high octane fuel and blue moon was always full of sleds. Really miss that trail for heading south, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 We've received our numbers and goals to meet OFSC. Very attainable but I can foresee some unhappy faces when they "lose their groomer" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 We've received our numbers and goals to meet OFSC. Very attainable but I can foresee some unhappy faces when they "lose their groomer" Did you get this years numbers or the 5 year plan numbers? What District? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Did you get this years numbers or the 5 year plan numbers? What District? Both this years and the 5 year goal. And honestly this is something that was already in the works. Its the new OFSC format that is different.- No financial assistance from the OFSC for anything other than your targets. Oh yah District Nine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted November 27, 2015 Author Share Posted November 27, 2015 Can't imagine that there will be many 'deals' buying 16 groomers and drags at the same time, even though a Club or District is free to make their own choices. There has to be a better way to spend $4,000,000. We need to build some competitions amongst suppliers rather than a feeding frenzy at top $$ being demanded and paid. The Question is how to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 A number of businesses are using reverse auctions these days that save them huge amounts of money. The suppliers are sent all the requirements and are asked to respond to RFI, RFP, RFQ. Then the short list is invited to an online reverse auction based on what they offered to supply in the RF* process. The auction has a time limit. The bidders can see their ranking but don't know what the other bids are. As a supplier you can see for example that you are in #2 spot. They sharpen their pencil and put in a new lower bid. They may find they are still #2 or are now #1. If #1 slipped to #2 they can sharpen their pencil and see if they can regain #1 position. When the time limit for the auction is met it is over however if someone puts in a bid with two minutes to go the auction is extended five minutes to allow others to rebid. The lowest cost isn't always the winner. You can choose the best "Value" But it does ensure you are getting the best possible cost for the product you choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted November 28, 2015 Author Share Posted November 28, 2015 The other unfortunate aspect of this mother lode of money is that it will definitely undermine any trade-in value as we flood the market with 25-40 groomers that can only be purchased outside the OFSC umbrella. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 The other unfortunate aspect of this mother lode of money is that it will definitely undermine any trade-in value as we flood the market with 25-40 groomers that can only be purchased outside the OFSC umbrella. Wouldn't leasing be better then buying for a portion of the fleet to prevent used market saturation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PISTON LAKE CRUISER Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Wouldn't leasing be better then buying for a portion of the fleet to prevent used market saturation! Leasing the new groomers (only makes sense with Soucey type tractor conversions) now won't help with the soon to be current flock of used groomers. Would help down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Leasing the new groomers now won't help with the soon to be current flock of used groomers. Would help down the road. That is true, but wouldn't leasing them free up capital now, that could in turn allow some districts or clubs to keep groomers that are in sound working order for another year, instead of giving them away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted November 28, 2015 Author Share Posted November 28, 2015 Hopefully only the true junk groomers are eliminated in this first year rather than going 'whole hog' in trying to achieve a goal set by the consultant without an in-depth examination of each District's Groomers. We have a 97 BR-180 that rarely misses a grooming day due to the work and dedication of two great Volunteers, one of which is close to 85 years old. Getting rid of functioning groomers in the first round kills trade-in value and puts more load on the other groomers and more importantly the Volunteers who operate them. I can see the circumstance where a groomer is removed and you immediately lose the accompanying Volunteer Operator because they won't drive 30 Kms and have to meet someone somewhere to do a trade-off in order to groom more hours with fewer units. I just don't understand why the big rush but no a district is going to miss out on a 'Free' Groomer so they will make the cuts to groomers and trails in order to get the gold. I don't think this was what we agreed upon at September's AGM but it looks like this is the road the Board of Governors feel is best so hopefully we will make the right decisions. Some of these surplus groomers should just be parked this winter because trade-in is squat and who knows whether all these changes will be successful. Any other Districts have an opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobills Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Just wondering who will buy all of these used groomers?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Just wondering who will buy all of these used groomers?? Exactly that is why I can't see why not start to lease and always have a certain portion of the fleet renewed each year and let leasing company deal with the used units. This Is what transport companies do, because it is cheaper then buying the units and selling them 5 or 7 years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 D9 would have no problem removing several Br's on life support. The Br 180 is Meaford has over 10000 hrs and is way past its best before date. We have other 1990's units with drive units that are just going to stop driving one of these days. ( confirmed by pressure testing) The issue is if you hope and pray a unit get you through the season and then craps out in mid January. We've had this in the past and brought units in from other areas but when you have a 19 yr old unit do you invest in it. We both know the answer to that one. So, logically , could we remove that suspect unit and share its load with 3 or 4 other units to achieve our goal of 130-140 per unit. AND keeping in mind geography dictates. 30 km to pick up a groomer for a shift, don't see that as an issue as we pay our drivers. Just my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Leasing the new groomers (only makes sense with Soucey type tractor conversions) now won't help with the soon to be current flock of used groomers. Would help down the road. Why is that? Is this because the manufactuers know there is no end market for used specialized grooming units and charge an arm and leg for leases? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Just wondering who will buy all of these used groomers?? Clubs from the states have alot of interest. Many from New Hampshire, Maine use puck up truck track conversions for grooming and are interested in moving up to industrial groomers. North America is rather large and has many snowmobile clubs. Industrial groomers are used by others for many different purposes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Hopefully only the true junk groomers are eliminated in this first year rather than going 'whole hog' in trying to achieve a goal set by the consultant without an in-depth examination of each District's Groomers. We have a 97 BR-180 that rarely misses a grooming day due to the work and dedication of two great Volunteers, one of which is close to 85 years old. Getting rid of functioning groomers in the first round kills trade-in value and puts more load on the other groomers and more importantly the Volunteers who operate them. I can see the circumstance where a groomer is removed and you immediately lose the accompanying Volunteer Operator because they won't drive 30 Kms and have to meet someone somewhere to do a trade-off in order to groom more hours with fewer units. I just don't understand why the big rush but no a district is going to miss out on a 'Free' Groomer so they will make the cuts to groomers and trails in order to get the gold. I don't think this was what we agreed upon at September's AGM but it looks like this is the road the Board of Governors feel is best so hopefully we will make the right decisions. Some of these surplus groomers should just be parked this winter because trade-in is squat and who knows whether all these changes will be successful. Any other Districts have an opinion? Not going to speak for the district but I will speak for myself. Any District that has a Centaur should look at those machines first. They are primarily meant for packing swamps and are not meant to be pulling snow in a drag. They are great if used for packing only. Clubs need to get back to the basics and learn how to pack with utility sleds... I know the argument in regards to opening early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 The key reason for leasing vs owning for business is that lease is an operating expense and you claim the full cost of the lease against income. For owning it is a capital expense and only claim the depreciation expense which would be a % of the declining value defined by CRA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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