OFSC NEW GROOMERS

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

PLC, same question to you. What happens if a club exceeds the "up to amount"? Does the district fund it from another clubs budget? If a club has not used all their budget can they "bank" it for next season? These are the issues we are struggling with in our District as we try to come up with a plan that will work for us.

I am no longer directly involved with the grooming association so I am not qualified to answer your questions BP. My statement above was based on what I was told by someone directly involved as mentioned.

[Nith Valley Sledder]

I am no longer directly involved with the grooming association so I am not qualified to answer your questions BP. My statement above was based on what I was told by someone directly involved as mentioned.

You could probably get your old job back and they would welcome you with open arms

[Faceman]

I'm hearing that districts are starting to buy into MOTS. Good to hear!

[Big Pete]

I'm hearing that districts are starting to buy into MOTS. Good to hear!

Are they buying in or are they giving up and just going along? Big difference. 

[bbakernbay]

I doubt that any District will turn down their "Free" new Groomer.

I would think that everyone will go along and agree and scrap the obvious old and little used groomers to make the 'number' dictated to them.

The second, third, fourth and fifth years will be a much different story.

I do think that this emergency reboot is needed and I can see in our District that Clubs will need to cooperate much more than they have and ultimately a paid operator District Grooming Association will need to evolve.

[Faceman]

The D9 groomer coordinators met last night and decided to form a working group to come up with sensible solutions within the bounds of the earlier grooming report and the recommendations that have been put forward by the Board of Governors. IMHO there is no one better to find solutions than this group. Their solutions to district grooming issues will then be sent for the District Trails Committee to review and ultimately for the District Board of Directors to accept/change/ modify or dismiss as they see fit. Bottom line , more efficiencies found, more savings for new equipment or district projects. Communication is really the key as it is a common goal, to put the best product on the snow within the budget set by the board.

[bbakernbay]

The D9 groomer coordinators met last night and decided to form a working group to come up with sensible solutions within the bounds of the earlier grooming report and the recommendations that have been put forward by the Board of Governors. IMHO there is no one better to find solutions than this group. Their solutions to district grooming issues will then be sent for the District Trails Committee to review and ultimately for the District Board of Directors to accept/change/ modify or dismiss as they see fit. Bottom line , more efficiencies found, more savings for new equipment or district projects. Communication is really the key as it is a common goal, to put the best product on the snow within the budget set by the board.

Does that mean District 9 will not be responding to the OFSC's deadline of December 15th or am I missing something?

[Faceman]

Does that mean District 9 will not be responding to the OFSC's deadline of December 15th or am I missing something?

Oh No. Already submitted that. This is moving forward to fine tune grooming times/ grooming boundaries/grooming budget allocation/maintenance practices etc

[bbakernbay]

Seeing no recent posts, I can only presume that everyone is happy getting a new groomer from the OFSC or else many of you are writing off this winter.

[Faceman]

Yes, would be interested in knowing how many submitted. And, how long the OFSC will take to give the go ahead for those who have submitted.

[-crz-]

Seeing no recent posts, I can only presume that everyone is happy getting a new groomer from the OFSC or else many of you are writing off this winter.

 

I agree with what you said above, I think the first year won't be too bad. Weed out the junk, and get a new groomer.

However, in subsequent years when we start removing good working units, is when you will see alot of upset clubs.

[bbakernbay]

I am told that The Shop Industrial in Lively has 12 PriNoth Huskys ready to roll.

[Faceman]

I agree with what you said above, I think the first year won't be too bad. Weed out the junk, and get a new groomer.

However, in subsequent years when we start removing good working units, is when you will see alot of upset clubs.

We can sure find enough "junk" to get rid of in the next 5 without a problem!

[Wildman]

I am no longer directly involved with the grooming association so I am not qualified to answer your questions BP. My statement above was based on what I was told by someone directly involved as mentioned.

I am still workin, well stopped for supper, if I am not to late, I can give you the answers to all these questions and an explanation of why.......it took many hours to come up with the funding model, and it works.

[Wildman]

PLC, same question to you. What happens if a club exceeds the "up to amount"? Does the district fund it from another clubs budget? If a club has not used all their budget can they "bank" it for next season? These are the issues we are struggling with in our District as we try to come up with a plan that will work for us.

The po and funding system work like this, we have a district trsil committee, this committee forms the funding models for trail maintenance and infrastructure as well as groomer funding for replacement and repair. The funding models have to be approved by the district bosrd, then they go to the floor to be voted on. Once approved, the trail committee accepts po requests for all trail work and groomer repair. A club can spend up to $2500 on emergencey repairs, but still must submit a po request, once the repair per groomer reaches $10k in a season, no work shall be done without approval from the trail committee. Our reasoning for this is simple, the majority of our fleet is worth repairing, it gives the club the opportunity to repair the groomer and keep grooming when there is no one to issue a po. But once enough money has been spent in a season it gives the committee the opportunity to asses whether or not to keep spending money on that unit.

The funding is allocated as follows, clubs get a small portion of each permit they sell, $12. Out of that money, the club is responsible for land owner appreciation, trail install and removal equipment and "club house" costs. Anything else is looked after the district trails committee. At the district meetings, the chair of the trail committee gives a report and answers all questions about repairs and trail maintenance, the system is totally transparent.

This model is a ton of work for volunteers to maintain and operate, but it works for d5, it puts the money where it is needed to keep the trails in the best shape possible across the entire district, all while being controlled in a transparent manner. If clubs don't like it, they get their say, but its not from behind a keyboard, it's through representation at the district meetings.

[Big Pete]

The po and funding system work like this, we have a district trsil committee, this committee forms the funding models for trail maintenance and infrastructure as well as groomer funding for replacement and repair. The funding models have to be approved by the district bosrd, then they go to the floor to be voted on. Once approved, the trail committee accepts po requests for all trail work and groomer repair. A club can spend up to $2500 on emergencey repairs, but still must submit a po request, once the repair per groomer reaches $10k in a season, no work shall be done without approval from the trail committee. Our reasoning for this is simple, the majority of our fleet is worth repairing, it gives the club the opportunity to repair the groomer and keep grooming when there is no one to issue a po. But once enough money has been spent in a season it gives the committee the opportunity to asses whether or not to keep spending money on that unit.

The funding is allocated as follows, clubs get a small portion of each permit they sell, $12. Out of that money, the club is responsible for land owner appreciation, trail install and removal equipment and "club house" costs. Anything else is looked after the district trails committee. At the district meetings, the chair of the trail committee gives a report and answers all questions about repairs and trail maintenance, the system is totally transparent.

This model is a ton of work for volunteers to maintain and operate, but it works for d5, it puts the money where it is needed to keep the trails in the best shape possible across the entire district, all while being controlled in a transparent manner. If clubs don't like it, they get their say, but its not from behind a keyboard, it's through representation at the district meetings.

 

 

Wildman, thank you for the overview of the D-5 model. And congrats on finding a system that is working for your District. I am sure you have your challenges but it looks like everybody is generally on the same page. Am curious about how you got to your current state. Was it an evolution over a number of seasons or was it more of a big bang and here it is. If it was a big bang type change what was the catalyst for the change? Also, how big is your district trails committee? Is every club represented or is there an election. How is your District Board structured as to size, representation etc

 

.In D-1, due to the geographical size of the area we have divided the District into 4 zones. The District Board is comprised of the Pres/Gov, Vice Pres/Ops Coordinator and Sec/Treasurer who are elected at large. Each zone also elects a Zone Director to represent them at the board table. Total Board size is 7 plus the District Manager (non-voting member). (We are loking at increasing the board size to increase club representation) Don't have a Trails Committee per se right now but we are planning to set one up with implementation of MOTS. We do have a Finance Committee that has a rep from each zone plus the Sec/Treasurer and Ops Coordinator. Club funding model is reviewed annually by the committee. A recommendation is made and submitted to the board for presentation to the membership for approval. As part of the annual budgeting process, the district funds certain programs that are centrally based on the input from the clubs. These would include a groomer repair/refurbishment fund, a central Insurance Deductible reserve, a sign subsidy program, TP/STOP to name a few. Otherwise all funds are distributed to the club level. I see benefits to a more centralized approach such as yours. One of our big challenges is trying to figure out why we have such a disparity in trail cost/km or cost per grooming hour. Centralized payments would sort that out very quickly. The down side is just like you mentioned, it takes a ton of volunteer work to operate and maintain the system. 

 

It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out especially as we start to see what comes out of the BoG in terms of MOTS updates and implementation plans. Things like standardized/reconfigured districts will throw a whole new set of complications at us. Interesting times for sure.

[Wildman]

I will respond sometime Big Pete, my time is limited and typing is slow and I am late already, lol

[Big Pete]

No problems Wildman. Too bad real life gets in the way of snowmobiling.

[Faceman]

We are very similar to D5 with some exceptions regarding repairs and maintenance. Something we have wrestled with is the communications between the Board od Directors and their respective clubs. Seems to be some filtering issues. I think we might have resolved part of this by the establishment of our "Groomer Coordinators Committee". This committee will make recommendations to the TC for consideration and then passed on to the Board. D9 Board is targeting 60% night time grooming (4pm-8am) this year , going to 75 or 80% next winter. Leaving this up to the GC . Things such as allocation of hours for grooming and/or re-direction of funds as needed.

The communication is critical!

On another note, this winter D9 is really trying to get a handle on what the fleet actually costs to maintain. Clubs , in the past, received a certain hourly rate for groomer maintenance whether spent or not. This year clubs must submit to get paid. The district also requests that if it is volunteer labour that the club list the number of volunteer hours , which would be shop hours otherwise. The D9 Board has established criteria as to what is considered "maintenance"

[sledjunk]

Wildman

 

Thanks for your description of D5's process.  I look forward to your responses to Big Pete's questions.

 

Do you foresee any changes imposed as a result of MOTS?  I am under the impression that there will no longer be any permit money that goes to the clubs, removing the responsibility for MTO audits at the club level.

[Faceman]

Wildman

 

Thanks for your description of D5's process.  I look forward to your responses to Big Pete's questions.

 

Do you foresee any changes imposed as a result of MOTS?  I am under the impression that there will no longer be any permit money that goes to the clubs, removing the responsibility for MTO audits at the club level.

That is correct Dave. The accountability will be on the District.

[Wildman]

Ok, if I miss something let me know;

The reason for the change.....allot of insight of the inner workings of the province. The vp of the federation is from d5, he doesn't spill everything, but there has been enough told to make us realize the state the federation is in. Believe it or not, everyone that is involved has been where we are right now, and done more for the sport then most. I don't think there is one person from the district boards across the province, through BOG, right to EXCOM, that want to see organized snowmobiling fail. We have elected these individuals, they have all the information, we have the best product you are ever going to see from a volunteer run organization for rock bottom membership fees. PERIOD . Sorry about derailing my own post, I just get frustrated reading all the negativity.

We as a TC, discused the state of our district, along with the provincial insight and decided to structure a model that could be tweeked to fit any of the 16 districts. We had clubs in our district, that under ffc that would not have made it through last winter, we had clubs that wouldn't make it 2 years and clubs that wouldn't make it 3. Not on there own. This would make district meeting's a nightmare, it would put the district in turmoil. We crunched numbers, we went over tons of scenarios and we came up with a model that would fund the district as a whole, it worked....it is a monster that will be hard to replace committee members as they fade away, that is the biggest problem I see with it. And to pay people to run it would leave to much room for corruption, it needs to have people from as many clubs as possible. That brings us to another one of the questions, we started with zones in the district years ago, so thd idea was to have 2 reps from the 3 zones by election, now, we want to have a member from each club. My opinion is that unless there is a problem, that will never happen, if things go the way everyone wants, and appears to run smoothly, there will be little intrest for more to become involved.

District representation on the board, its not bad, it could be better, but the pool of people that attend, is relatively small. You see d5 is no exception, tons of people have the answers, but they don't show up and they sure point out what is wrong to the ones that do show up. Our board positions are similar to most districts across the province. If you people want me to list them I will, just ask.

My lack of tolerance for the negativity towards the federation as a whole is not directed at any one individual in particular, and I do not apologize for it. I ask everyone to remember where the people came from that represent BOG and EXCOM.Look at what they did before they got to those positions, and if you don't know, do some research on the people you are bashing. Thanks for reading

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

Thanks Wildman, for staying up late and writing a great response.

[Yukon]

Ok, if I miss something let me know;

The reason for the change.....allot of insight of the inner workings of the province. The vp of the federation is from d5, he doesn't spill everything, but there has been enough told to make us realize the state the federation is in. Believe it or not, everyone that is involved has been where we are right now, and done more for the sport then most. I don't think there is one person from the district boards across the province, through BOG, right to EXCOM, that want to see organized snowmobiling fail. We have elected these individuals, they have all the information, we have the best product you are ever going to see from a volunteer run organization for rock bottom membership fees. PERIOD . Sorry about derailing my own post, I just get frustrated reading all the negativity.

We as a TC, discused the state of our district, along with the provincial insight and decided to structure a model that could be tweeked to fit any of the 16 districts. We had clubs in our district, that under ffc that would not have made it through last winter, we had clubs that wouldn't make it 2 years and clubs that wouldn't make it 3. Not on there own. This would make district meeting's a nightmare, it would put the district in turmoil. We crunched numbers, we went over tons of scenarios and we came up with a model that would fund the district as a whole, it worked....it is a monster that will be hard to replace committee members as they fade away, that is the biggest problem I see with it. And to pay people to run it would leave to much room for corruption, it needs to have people from as many clubs as possible. That brings us to another one of the questions, we started with zones in the district years ago, so thd idea was to have 2 reps from the 3 zones by election, now, we want to have a member from each club. My opinion is that unless there is a problem, that will never happen, if things go the way everyone wants, and appears to run smoothly, there will be little intrest for more to become involved.

District representation on the board, its not bad, it could be better, but the pool of people that attend, is relatively small. You see d5 is no exception, tons of people have the answers, but they don't show up and they sure point out what is wrong to the ones that do show up. Our board positions are similar to most districts across the province. If you people want me to list them I will, just ask.

My lack of tolerance for the negativity towards the federation as a whole is not directed at any one individual in particular, and I do not apologize for it. I ask everyone to remember where the people came from that represent BOG and EXCOM.Look at what they did before they got to those positions, and if you don't know, do some research on the people you are bashing. Thanks for reading

Hear hear!

[bbakernbay]

Well, what is the word on trade-in values for those groomers that are to be removed from the fleet?

We were absolutely shocked at the very low trade-in value on a BR in our District.

As I and others predicted earlier, when you flood the market, prices drop to scrap steel prices and no one imagined this many groomers heading to the graveyard in one month, let alone the next five years.

Going to be extra tough to sell to New York or elsewhere with a crap winter facing everyone.