Am I "Part of the Problem"

[manotickmike]

Not trying to fuel the fire here, but if (insert snowmobile manufacturer name here, or here, I believe there's 2 now) manufactures a snowmobile with 1 ski, and a narrow track, it's going to meet that qualification.

There's going to be a re-writing of regulations needed.

And a legal battle with the manufacturers prepared for. They're not building these things for their health, or to make friends.

 

As a fellow 2 wheel enthusiast, who does this snowmobile thing in the "off" season, I agree with Tricky.

 

Also, we have an opportunity to get ahead of the problems with the sport, BEFORE the trails are taken from us.

Ask ANY dirt biker in this province how it used to be, and how it is now.

These are "the good ol' days".

 

[johnsazzr]

OFSC will have NO trouble staying ahead of this....not gonna happen

[skidooboy]

read further, in the msva... they meet the criteria.  

 

when they (Bikes) are equipped with the track and ski they ARE self propelled, designed to be driven primarily on the snow. no different than a "snowmobile". if you do not have the ski and track installed, THEN they don't meet the msva. no different than removing the ski and track from a snowmobile... now they don't meet the criteria.

 

it is a grey area, and there is a loophole. 

 

like I said, this is another can of worms but, people have to understand, this is a way to get the younger people into the sport, you older people were asking how to get them involved...

like the old saying... be careful what you ask for.

 

now many are "get off my lawn, not in my back yard people, when an option comes along to add that demographic to your ranks.

 

Ski

 

 

[manotickmike]

I still think when sled manufacturer builds it, it's going to meet the current regulations. It will never have had wheels on it.

I's going to no more of a "bike" than sled.  

My motorhome was a truck chassis.

According to the paper work, it's a motorhome. 32'. 

GVWR 17,000 pounds.

A 16 year old can drive it.

[FreezerBurnt]

Cat has the SVX or SXV in its line up, though i dont think they have sold any 

 

 

[skidooboy]

I am not trying to troll, or add fuel to the fire, I am just stating what is currently going on in the WORLD WIDE snowmobile industry. you can think, or do what you want.

 

Polaris now owns the largest and most recognizable snow bike "kit" provider, Timbersled. this is not a niche for them, they are aligning themselves with their motorcycle (victory (now gone), and indian) divisions and snow divisions, to invest in this demographic, and segment to expand their market share.

 

like I said... like it or not, THIS SEGMENT IS COMING, YOU CANT STOP IT.

 

the kits have their own serial/vin number. you could title, and register this on those numbers alone. "custom snowmachine/snowmobile, over snow vehicle"

 

your results may vary.

 

Ski

[gobills]

7 hours ago, skidooboy said:

I am not trying to troll, or add fuel to the fire, I am just stating what is currently going on in the WORLD WIDE snowmobile industry. you can think, or do what you want.

 

Polaris now owns the largest and most recognizable snow bike "kit" provider, Timbersled. this is not a niche for them, they are aligning themselves with their motorcycle (victory (now gone), and indian) divisions and snow divisions, to invest in this demographic, and segment to expand their market share.

 

like I said... like it or not, THIS SEGMENT IS COMING, YOU CANT STOP IT.

 

the kits have their own serial/vin number. you could title, and register this on those numbers alone. "custom snowmachine/snowmobile, over snow vehicle"

 

your results may vary.

 

Ski

Ski

 

I like your input on this.  Although I'm going to disagree  with you that they will be on the trails.   There is no way you could do any substantial riding on these.  There for off trail only.  There are not enough fuel stops for them to come to the trails. To long of distances between stops, they are not as fast as a sled on the trail to get from a to b.

 

  I do hope they come full force for off trail as I am a polaris guy and support them for taking the bull by the horns.  I really hope that off trail riding can get more recognized in ontario.  I'm not one for it but totally support a new way if they make options avaliable for people.  Private seems to be the way.  Ofsc/ clubs already have enough to do so no one can expect them to do anything for this.

 

Cheers

[skidooboy]

they don't have the range a sled has for sure, they are "built" for deep offtrail snow but, people will have to ride "some trails" to get to the play areas so, you "may" see them, at some point. from our exposure with our machine, it averages about 7-8 mpg, stock it has a 2.2 gallon tank on the bike, and can carry 2 3.5 gallon cans on the tunnel. so with just over 9 gallons, and an optimistic 8 mpg, technically it could go up to 72 miles. add a 3.5 gallon tank from another person carrying fuel (spouse, family member, friend, guide ect... now you are close to 100 miles. should you? probably not... could you? possibly. they will never be a touring snow vehicle. they are made to find a play area, and enjoy yourself.

 

the segment is HUGE outwest. you even have yeti (a Canadian group) mfg'ring and marketing these. the west guys sometime complain, they are a handful on the trail but, that is not our experience. with the correct set up, they can cruise right along at the 50 kph limit, or better. :D  

 

and I disagree with you on your assumption they are slower than a sled. in a straightline drag race, no issue, the bike is slower, hands down (less than 50hp in most cases). in a tight twisty trail, in the right hands, the bikes can lay a whoopin on sleds, they can turn sharper, can hold a line, don't over or understeer like a sled. when the trails get pounded and whooped out... the bikes were made for that type of terrain and condition, their suspension just soak it up.

 

just asking people to be open minded... again, it is not the sled, track, bike, lug height that cause the damage, and trespass. it is the end user in charge of the throttle. Ski

[shawnj]

Just kinda reading through this topic quicky, but is an atv equiped with tracks self propelled and therefore allowed on an ofsc trail?  I didnt think they were allowed on them.  

[skidooboy]

atv's with tracks don't have ski or skis, therefore, do not meet the msva criteria. must have track and ski/skis (per msva). Ski 

[Hkb82]

13 minutes ago, skidooboy said:

atv's with tracks don't have ski or skis, therefore, do not meet the msva criteria. must have track and ski/skis (per msva). Ski 

They could

[jrhz06]

Sorry to burst your bubble but at this time none of the bikes or ATV's meet the criteria.

 

The following outlines the process the Ministry follows to determine if a vehicle can be legally registered as a Motorized Snow Vehicle (MSV).

Step 1:  As a reference, Section 21 (1) of the MSVA includes a requirement for new vehicles sold as MSV's to display a National Safety Mark. "New" is relevant in that once a machine is initially registered with the Ministry, it retains the registration for the life of the vehicle.

21. (1) No person who deals in motorized snow vehicles or cutters designed to be drawn by motorized snow vehicles shall sell or offer to sell a new motorized snow vehicle or cutter manufactured after the date this section comes into force that does not conform to the standards required under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada), or that does not bear the National Safety Mark referred to therein. R.S.O. 1990, c. M.44, s. 21(1).

Step 2: Section 1201 of the federal Motor Vehicle Safety Act (MVSA), which should not be confused with the MSVA of Ontario, requires each snowmobile sold in Canada to comply with the requirements developed by the Snowmobile Safety and Certification Committee, Inc.(SSCC) a North American non-profit association that has developed safety standards for the manufacture and certification of snowmobiles.

1201. (1) Every snowmobile shall be constructed so that it conforms to the requirements set out in the following standards: (a) the Safety Standards for Snowmobile Product Certification, SSCC/11, published by the Snowmobile Safety and Certification Committee.

Step 3:  To determine eligibility, you must refer to the Safety Standards for Snowmobile Product Certification, SSCC/11 referenced in the federal legislation which details the various safety equipment which must be installed on a new vehicle in order for it to obtain certification which is valid for the life of the vehicle. The 29 page regulations include requirements from emergency kill switches to minimum stopping distances. A vehicle certified as a Motorized Snow Vehicle for the purpose of registration with the Ministry of Transportation in Ontario must display the certification mark displayed on page 27 of the document.

Dirt bikes, ATVs, side by sides or other vehicles do not meet the requirement in SSCC/11 and do not display the certification mark, the MSVA does not consider the vehicles as MSVs.

[RMRDubreuilville]

Guys just wanted to pipe in and point out a few things.  There are models of this type of activity that is organized.  Yellow Stone,  Revelstoke, Québec Mont Valin  Mont Chic Choc and  a few other places in BC.  There are a few key differences.  Most of these are organized with key diffenriators.  You need to remember that the backcountry rider is always looking to lay fresh tracks.  Hence if it does not snow in the park or play area to help renew the fresh tracks opportunity,  the riders will foray into new territory.  Like anything,  it will always be a containment issue even if we identify key areas.  The Wawa scenario is a good example,  they have identified 3 key areas in their promotional material.  This is great,  you need to have a trail permit to ride the trail to get to the park like area.  One of the issues is that several backcountry riders don't purchase trail passes because the justify this non purchase because they claim they do ride the trails.  Unless you trailer to a staging area and unload to ride the park area we will continue to have issues with the non paying trail borrower.  If everyone saw that they need to pay to borrow the groomed trails to get to the play areas they need to pay for this privilege.  We get people calling all the time who want to stage out of the Magpie Relay in Dubreuilville.  They ask,  do I need a trail  pass to ride your area even if we are doing backcountry.  I  say yes you.  They don't come because they don't want to purchase a pass.  And I  am OK with that.  We in Northern Ontario know that we have the opportunity to offer more sites like the ones being promoting Wawa.  We have already started to identify these sites and riding areas on the Gotoursontario.ca website.  Take a look,  Cochrane,  Kapuskasing,  Smooth Rock Falls,  Hearst and Dubreuilville all have identified areas to backcountry for Snowmobile and for ATV,  ADV motorcycles and Side by Sides.  Backcountry riding is not going away.  We need and we will develop somewhat works.  The issue like everything else is lack of support,  collaboration and involvement.  Everyone wants it but nobody steps up when we try to put it together.  I  am developing something I am calling the Mooseback trail system and it will feature documented loops trails and play areas where people will be able to go backcountry riding.  I  expect people to support the initiative via a contribution system that will go back to the clubs that maintain these various trails and networks. We will attempt to make it sustainable.  But like everything else,  insurance,  liability and plain old stupid people will blame us for their ignorance and will want us to pay them for being idiots because they got hurt,  damage property or just plain looking for a cash grab.  It's very frustrating when you spend 80% of your efforts trying to insure and protect yourself rather than concentrating on building the freaken trail infrastructure.  In any case.  It complicated.  

[Hkb82]

2 hours ago, jrhz06 said:

Sorry to burst your bubble but at this time none of the bikes or ATV's meet the criteria.

Just put that pic in being a smart ass I would never want to see those things on the trails. I do like to get out on the atv in the spring and fall and for hunting is a must. Would never put anything on an ofsc other then a sled.  I can see the bikes being super fun in the powder but can't see any advantage over a sled for trail riding.  I am sure they will use them on the ofsc trails though to get to crown and places they can find fresh powder. 

[jrhz06]

6 hours ago, Hkb82 said:

Just put that pic in being a smart ass I would never want to see those things on the trails. I do like to get out on the atv in the spring and fall and for hunting is a must. Would never put anything on an ofsc other then a sled.  I can see the bikes being super fun in the powder but can't see any advantage over a sled for trail riding.  I am sure they will use them on the ofsc trails though to get to crown and places they can find fresh powder. 

Not picking on you, sorry if that's what you got out of that. I'd love the idea of getting a tracked bike but only if it's trail legal. I'm assuming that the reason we haven't seen Cat's bike is that they are having issues getting it certified as a snow machine and it's probably the closest one to getting approved. Once approved it opens a floodgate of what could be considered a snow machine. If it gets approved there would be nothing stopping an OEM from producing exactly what you show in the pic or from doing a fully tracked snow machine.

[shawnj]

10 hours ago, skidooboy said:

atv's with tracks don't have ski or skis, therefore, do not meet the msva criteria. must have track and ski/skis (per msva). Ski 

Ahh I missed the ski part, Ski.  LOL

Just as well.  I couldn't imagine following an atv on the trail

 

[manotickmike]

10 hours ago, jrhz06 said:

Sorry to burst your bubble but at this time none of the bikes or ATV's meet the criteria.

(edited for space)

.

Dirt bikes, ATVs, side by sides or other vehicles do not meet the requirement in SSCC/11 and do not display the certification mark, the MSVA does not consider the vehicles as MSVs.

Agreed.

If (OK, I'll name a brand) say, Arctic Cat decides to market a snow bike, it will never have been branded a dirt bike.

I suspect Yamaha will make the frame, the motor, and some other components, (likely because Yamaha doesn't build to a price point, but for reliability, for the most part, but I digress) but it will be an Arctic Cat, and built as a snow machine. It has a seat, handle bars, a track, the only technical difference will be that it has one ski, not 2.

The regulations designed to keep these off a trail will need to be modified.

[jrhz06]

The SVX450 that Cat has shown and races is based off of a Sherco 450. I believe its origin is Spain.

[Crow]

20 minutes ago, manotickmike said:

Agreed.

If (OK, I'll name a brand) say, Arctic Cat decides to market a snow bike, it will never have been branded a dirt bike.

I suspect Yamaha will make the frame, the motor, and some other components, (likely because Yamaha doesn't build to a price point, but for reliability, for the most part, but I digress) but it will be an Arctic Cat, and built as a snow machine. It has a seat, handle bars, a track, the only technical difference will be that it has one ski, not 2.

The regulations designed to keep these off a trail will need to be modified.

 

 

 I have a Ski Doo in the herd that only came with 1 ski.(Alpine)  Does this mean I could not put it on the trail?  Not that I would mind you, just asking if the single ski is the deal breaker when it comes to the snow bike?

[skidooboy]

denis has a single skier sled too. they are allowed. Ski

[mneville]

Another problem is family day this is the thanks they give for riding the trails for free don`t worry went we don`t have trails to ride on we can sell are sleds and not have to pay for permits either

these pictures were taken in a farmers field that the trails pass I was on this same trail last Sunday and they weren`t there

[FreezerBurnt]

22 hours ago, skidooboy said:

I am not trying to troll, or add fuel to the fire, I am just stating what is currently going on in the WORLD WIDE snowmobile industry. you can think, or do what you want.

 

Polaris now owns the largest and most recognizable snow bike "kit" provider, Timbersled. this is not a niche for them, they are aligning themselves with their motorcycle (victory (now gone), and indian) divisions and snow divisions, to invest in this demographic, and segment to expand their market share.

 

like I said... like it or not, THIS SEGMENT IS COMING, YOU CANT STOP IT.

 

the kits have their own serial/vin number. you could title, and register this on those numbers alone. "custom snowmachine/snowmobile, over snow vehicle"

 

your results may vary.

 

Ski

 

 

off trail slowly coming , out west it is growing very fast

 

I know a member here that does not post much, rides a snowbike, I have seen his vids, he seems to love it

 

I doubt you will see these on trails that much at all

 

The cost is expensive

 

Looks like fun if you like tight off trail riding

 

I know as a group we go out and ride maybe 30-40miles if that in 6-8hrs of pure fun off trail, and we are spent

 

This is were these bikes will shine, there is a growing group of riders that just want to play off trail and not do 100-300km rides which these bikes will not do

[Blake G]

5 hours ago, mneville said:

a farmers field that the trails pass

 

 

 

 

At least one of them wishes he had stayed on the trail.

[stoney]

Anyone who has rode in QC will know they have winter trails for ATV's and sleds......I have yet to actually see an ATV while riding there.

 

The free weekend is just putting another nail in the coffin for an already fragile system.... 

 

[RAMSOMAIR]

As for big lug tracks ruining the trail, i beg to differ after witnessing the carnage this weekend from the old iron that was let loose on the trails on family day wknd. These old beasts were everywhere and with their 1/2" and 3/4" lug tracks, I can attest to the full on spinning and washing all the snow off the trail lol. followed a few and not one track was left behind them, cleared it all off due to spinning and no traction. No I don't run a huge track (1.25) and i have plenty of power (Sidewinder), but I don't blow any snow off the trail or wash it all off. Another reason why the "free" wknd is not working in my opinion!