Am I "Part of the Problem"

[johnsazzr]

35 minutes ago, skidooboy said:

2 up, I see your point on the surfboard, atv, boat. but, what you need to understand is the province is HUGE, and there are mountainous areas, Abitibi, Algoma, Agawa, the superior north and east areas have HUGE elevation changes.  you may not know this, or go to the region or care about this region. but, offtrail opportunities are available and mountain sleds are REQUIRED to ride in some of these remote areas.

you have to look at the province as a whole, and not say just because you don't see the need for mountain sleds, they are not needed/wanted.

 

it is not the sled that is the issue, it is the person controlling the throttle that does the damage to the trails, and rides off trail where they shouldn't. education, and enforcement are the only fixes. Ski

 

 

the key being "remote"... these areas are many HOURS away from the general population and if sledders want to go there...they can do so now for free....if the average southern ontario sledder with a need for extreme off trail riding was willing and able to take the time and spend the money to ride there...they would be doing so in droves...the fact is demographics of Ontario outweight geography in all of these discussions....90% of the population of ontario lives 8+hrs from these areas...it would almost be easier to fly to BC and rent a sled to ride in the mountains than trailer 15-20 hrs return to ride off trail for a weekend...having grown up in Northern Ontario I do appreciate your point about the wonderful topography of the Cdn Shield but it is remote and damn cold....a small percentage can and do spend the time and money required to enjoy the North but the rest will be sticking to the average Ontario trail closer to home regardless of what type of sled they own

[johnsazzr]

1 hour ago, AdamGamble said:

So after 40 replies, in summary it seems on this site anyways that;

A) The Clubs and OFSC aren't remotely interested in the idea. 

B.) it's the riders responsibility to know where is private/crown/permissible land to go off trail

C) it takes a large amount of snow and land to ride off trail and once it's been tracked it's toast. 

D) insurance and liability is a nightmare 

 

I guess backcountry riding in Ontario will remain an excluded group of explorers that are willing to travel way north in search of glory. 

 

I think I am fine with this, a 8-12 hour drive to me isn't a big deal and I find the further I go the better the riding is. 

 

The only issue s sue is we are going to see a lot more trails close and lot more land owner complaints which I'm sure the clubs are used to by now. 

 

 

Amen...sums it up

[sledjunk]

IIRC, a few years ago Ontario Hydro decided to revoke permission for use of any of their corridors.  The biggest reason mentioned at the time was the liability to them from the riders going off trail in the hydro lines.  The potential for a lawsuit from someone getting hurt or killed had them worried.  IIRC, the Ministry of Tourism and the OFSC were able to convince them to reverse the decision, but it was a close call.  I still cringe when I see all the tracks off trail in these areas.  We use A LOT if Hydro right of ways, and if we lose them, we will likely lose all of them.

 

 

[02Sled]

Your recall is pretty accurate 

[AdamGamble]

2 hours ago, johnsazzr said:

 

the key being "remote"... these areas are many HOURS away from the general population and if sledders want to go there...they can do so now for free....if the average southern ontario sledder with a need for extreme off trail riding was willing and able to take the time and spend the money to ride there...they would be doing so in droves...the fact is demographics of Ontario outweight geography in all of these discussions....90% of the population of ontario lives 8+hrs from these areas...it would almost be easier to fly to BC and rent a sled to ride in the mountains than trailer 15-20 hrs return to ride off trail for a weekend...having grown up in Northern Ontario I do appreciate your point about the wonderful topography of the Cdn Shield but it is remote and damn cold....a small percentage can and do spend the time and money required to enjoy the North but the rest will be sticking to the average Ontario trail closer to home regardless of what type of sled they own

The group I ride with and myself are willing to drive just got back stayed in cochrane for 5 days had a blast. Thriftlodge was good Terry's steak house was great, JRs had the ribs enjoyed them. Huge appreciation to Paps ski doo as they saved a couple guys weeks for us. The trails were mint, the level of hospitality was awesome. Going north is and should be a large segment of this sport especially with the warming winter months that are happening and will continue. 

[slomo]

11 hours ago, Big Pete said:

 

 

I really do do wish somebody or group can get off trail riding set up in a meaningful way. Hopefully it would help reduce some of the issues the trail riding community is dealing with. 

 

While I'll be addressing this in an upcoming article on the forum which is currently in first draft entitled "Another Chicken Sh*t Editorial by Supertrax" - in order to get the ball rolling on this, I would suggest that those pushing off trail riding while being paid by the manufacturers and others to do so, should peruse the following web sites, purchase some land, and "get off trail riding set up in a meaningful way" -

 

http://www.thelandstore.ca/about.htm

http://www.dignam.com/category/northern-ontario/

http://www.canadianland.com/listings.htm

 

You can't argue with the success of Supertrax Magazine in being profitable (and keeping family and friends employed - a good thing) but maybe this is the next logical step in their support of this type of snowmobiling.

 

[AdamGamble]

3 hours ago, slomo said:

 

While I'll be addressing this in an upcoming article on the forum which is currently in first draft entitled "Another Chicken Sh*t Editorial by Supertrax" - in order to get the ball rolling on this, I would suggest that those pushing off trail riding while being paid by the manufacturers and others to do so, should peruse the following web sites, purchase some land, and "get off trail riding set up in a meaningful way" -

 

http://www.thelandstore.ca/about.htm

http://www.dignam.com/category/northern-ontario/

http://www.canadianland.com/listings.htm

 

You can't argue with the success of Supertrax Magazine in being profitable (and keeping family and friends employed - a good thing) but maybe this is the next logical step in their support of this type of snowmobiling.

 

With a title and response like that how do you expect to make progress and or be taken seriously. We're having a open discussion about this not an attack.

[Panther340]

I have to ask ?  Where and what is Wawa doing in regard to this off trail business, because when I go to the Ontario government Crown land link

http://www.gisapplication.lrc.gov.on.ca/CLUPA/Index.html?site=CLUPA&viewer=CLUPA&locale=en-US

 

I see a lot of private land around Wawa  and Hawk Junction and all the way down the rail line corridor to Sault .

But maybe they are just using the odd township listed that is crown land.

[Sledguy74]

http://www.northernontario.travel/snowmobiling/top-secret-boondocking-in-wawa-ontario

 

there is a area map showing the freeride areas

[Yukon]

I would imagine the areas that are accessed are owned by the Town of Wawa and Algoma Region. 

 

It also states in the link you must have a valid OFSC permit to access the locations...  

 

http://topsecretboondocking.com

 

 

 

[Nith Valley Sledder]

15 hours ago, sledjunk said:

IIRC, a few years ago Ontario Hydro decided to revoke permission for use of any of their corridors.  The biggest reason mentioned at the time was the liability to them from the riders going off trail in the hydro lines.  The potential for a lawsuit from someone getting hurt or killed had them worried.  IIRC, the Ministry of Tourism and the OFSC were able to convince them to reverse the decision, but it was a close call.  I still cringe when I see all the tracks off trail in these areas.  We use A LOT if Hydro right of ways, and if we lose them, we will likely lose all of them.

 

 

Keep in mind a large percentage of the hydro corridors are private property in southern Ontario. Hydro One has a right of way across the land for their equipment and employees / contractors but isn't in a position to grant access to the general public to use these corridors as they don't own the land. Hydro One has the right to use these corridors year round. They also have the obligation to pay for any crop damage they may cause. When they check lines in the summer you their people making a point of going around crops whenever possible. 

[02Sled]

here's an article referencing what Sledjunk was talking about where we almost lost access to hydro corridor trails.

 

https://www.baytoday.ca/local-news/snowmobilers-continue-to-access-ofsc-trails-on-ontario-hydro-corridors-25517

[Canadoo]

We've been riding hydro cuts for decades.  So it's not riders who've changed in this case.

[slomo]

8 hours ago, AdamGamble said:

With a title and response like that how do you expect to make progress and or be taken seriously. We're having a open discussion about this not an attack.

 

Well sonny, if you've read the Supertrax magazine over the past while, the last 3 issues have featured editorials by various of the Lesters (magazine owners) maintaining the wave of the future is the off trail riders - what do we do about it? OOOOH. (with no ideas of course) Last issue, yet another Lester (can't remember which one got the nod this time - about 15 of them on the magazine I think) got up to the plate and wrote another editorial debunking the idea that Supertrax was in any way, shape or form, responsible for the latest bout of trails being closed by off trail riders - despite promoting it - people on snowmobiling forums such as this one were actually coming out and laying some of the trail closure blame at their doorstep!! Imagine that FFS. Even went so far as to partially blame a certain government bill for the trail closures when anyone on this forum knows the trails were closed by landowners tired of trespassing and damage. So when I say chickensh*t, I mean chickensh*t. (No offense meant VR700)

 

So my idea expressed above- have Supertrax get behind creating parks for off trail riders is a workable one - right up Supertracks alley and it seems yours as well as you seem to have some agenda building here.

 

Not only that, I had another great idea toward the creation of the parks which skidooboy got me thinking about - the creation of fresh powder snow for these folks could be created rather cheaply using snow making machines such as are used by ski hills.

 

 

[Wildbill]

23 hours ago, AdamGamble said:

No, I don't know of anywhere else that has so many heavily involved individuals. This site the "OC" seems to contain the "OGs" (original gangsters lol) of organized  sledding. Lots of knowledge on this site. 

OC does have the cream of the crop . I really like the folks here 

[FreezerBurnt]

As someone who loves off trail riding 144 2" track now on my sled

 

I feel promoting and regulating off trail destinations is a bad idea for the most part

 

#1 - I don't really want to tell every Tom, Dick and Harry where we ride, areas get tracked up quite quickly and you have to go further and further away to find virgin snow

 

#2- we look for crown land to ride off trail and avoid private, we do not pull out onto farmers John's winter wheat field because there is nice drifts

 

#3- our group(10 guys and gals) has made a rule NO CANs as it only attract negative attention, we already shunned one rider from our group and he has come back with his stock can

 

#4- I have always rode off trail back home in Sudbury, plenty of places to ride without having to promote it as you are bound to get an idiot or 2 that thinks it is a free for all and go into places they are not suppose to be in

 

#5- Clubs need to stick with what they are good at which is providing safe enjoyable trail riding within their catchment areas which is already a lot on their plate, for the amount of volounteers we have , off trail promotion opens you up to more liability also IMO

 

#6- as mentioned earlier riding a 1.75-2.6 track on the trail with throttle control vs the guy that mashes the throttle every corner with a 1.25, your 1.75-2.6 inch track won't last long if you are going 80 and roosting on hard pack and cost quite a bit more to replace

 

that all said I wish I had 2 sleds or track swaps were a 5-10minute job, I had a great time on a 300+km trail ride this past weekend and enjoy that type of riding also

 

 

[tricky]

I have only been a snowmobiler for 25 years. My first motorized passion was motorcycles, both on and off road. I have been involved with bikes for 50 years -belonged to road riding associations, dual sport clubs and off-road racing clubs. I have spent time on the executive of some of these federations, and spent hundreds, likely a few thousand hours creating trail and race courses for my off-road sport. I wouldn't expect road riding clubs and riders to lobby and advocate for off-road opportunities. Nor would expect the off-road group to advocate for the road riders. All motorcyclists share a common bond of two wheels and generally appreciate all forms of the sport, but the support thing kinda ends there.

 

Likewise as a snowmobiler, I appreciate the off trail riding sport and wish it well, but I don't think organized snowmobiling, as I know it currently, has any business or mandate to promote, produce or sanction off trail riding opportunities. Here in Ontario, organized sledding means the OFSC, which isn't perfect, but has done way more good than harm over the years. Some member clubs of the OFSC, in areas where powder riding is readily available, may want to get into promoting the off trail experience. Hopefully this can be done utilizing fresh new volunteers from within their membership, not the volunteers who continue to provide the trail system that we ride now. This is the model that has been used for years by off-road motorcycling clubs who promote both racing and trail riding. Some club members provide the racing opportunities, while others concentrate on creating good trail rides, and a good number volunteer for both.

 

When I read the first Lester editorial that slomo referred to, suggesting that organized snowmobiling has an opportunity to engage the off trail crowd and almost an obligation to find riding areas for them in conjunction with current trail networks, I was somewhat taken back, but assumed he had just got too close to his whiskey bottle while he belted out his tune. When I read the second one in the most recent Supertrax issue, I asked myself WTF? He must be serious!!! An opportunity definitely exists, but it is not for the provincial and state federations that are currently producing our groomed trails! A new sport is being promoted by the manufacturers, sledding media and riding enthusiasts. I wish them every success in pooling their talents to produce the top notch deep powder riding experience that the industry is advertising. Dig in boys and girls, its all yours.

 

[FreezerBurnt]

1 hour ago, tricky said:

I have only been a snowmobiler for 25 years. My first motorized passion was motorcycles, both on and off road. I have been involved with bikes for 50 years -belonged to road riding associations, dual sport clubs and off-road racing clubs. I have spent time on the executive of some of these federations, and spent hundreds, likely a few thousand hours creating trail and race courses for my off-road sport. I wouldn't expect road riding clubs and riders to lobby and advocate for off-road opportunities. Nor would expect the off-road group to advocate for the road riders. All motorcyclists share a common bond of two wheels and generally appreciate all forms of the sport, but the support thing kinda ends there.

 

Likewise as a snowmobiler, I appreciate the off trail riding sport and wish it well, but I don't think organized snowmobiling, as I know it currently, has any business or mandate to promote, produce or sanction off trail riding opportunities. Here in Ontario, organized sledding means the OFSC, which isn't perfect, but has done way more good than harm over the years. Some member clubs of the OFSC, in areas where powder riding is readily available, may want to get into promoting the off trail experience. Hopefully this can be done utilizing fresh new volunteers from within their membership, not the volunteers who continue to provide the trail system that we ride now. This is the model that has been used for years by off-road motorcycling clubs who promote both racing and trail riding. Some club members provide the racing opportunities, while others concentrate on creating good trail rides, and a good number volunteer for both.

 

When I read the first Lester editorial that slomo referred to, suggesting that organized snowmobiling has an opportunity to engage the off trail crowd and almost an obligation to find riding areas for them in conjunction with current trail networks, I was somewhat taken back, but assumed he had just got too close to his whiskey bottle while he belted out his tune. When I read the second one in the most recent Supertrax issue, I asked myself WTF? He must be serious!!! An opportunity definitely exists, but it is not for the provincial and state federations that are currently producing our groomed trails! A new sport is being promoted by the manufacturers, sledding media and riding enthusiasts. I wish them every success in pooling their talents to produce the top notch deep powder riding experience that the industry is advertising. Dig in boys and girls, its all yours.

 

 

 

perfectly said :bc:

[Panther340]

As a teenager in the Elliot Lake area that loved dirt biking, me and my friends would enjoy the logging roads and gravel pits to do our jumps, hill climbs  and wheelies at our leisure, the owners of those gravel pits and logging roads never stopped us or worried much about us because we were “Unorganized” just adhoc random use

However when us dirt bikers wanted to have a dirt track type race , then the gravel pit owners (eg beside Elliot Lake airport) had to get all involved and make sure liability insurance aspects were covered and that we each signed off on certain aspects over and above their liability insurance concerns.

I suspect the same is going to happen with boondocking type powder “directed to destinations” as they become more permanent fixtures in a location.

Seems to me that the OFSC would be opening a huge can of worms if they took on facilitating off trail riding. Not only would liability issues be a concern and extra burden financially and reputationally , but the enabling of it (use of trails to the locations) would be abused by the certain locals that already do not buy the trail passes. But OFSC also has to be careful because a few years ago they went to the government hat in hand and somewhat exaggerated that they represented all the snowmachine owners of Ontario (to get license val tag percentage) , when they actually did not represent they many that just use on their farms or for ice fishing like me, or now we are seeing they don’t represent the boondocker type tourists, or the local boondocker that already knows where the powder is. The OFSC should stick to what they do best and that is providing a impressive trail network that joins communities thru tourism and locals support across Ontario , that respects the forests and any of the private land they carefully arranged thru years of dedication. And I say this as a non OFSC member looking in.

[johnsazzr]

11 hours ago, tricky said:

I have only been a snowmobiler for 25 years. My first motorized passion was motorcycles, both on and off road. I have been involved with bikes for 50 years -belonged to road riding associations, dual sport clubs and off-road racing clubs. I have spent time on the executive of some of these federations, and spent hundreds, likely a few thousand hours creating trail and race courses for my off-road sport. I wouldn't expect road riding clubs and riders to lobby and advocate for off-road opportunities. Nor would expect the off-road group to advocate for the road riders. All motorcyclists share a common bond of two wheels and generally appreciate all forms of the sport, but the support thing kinda ends there.

 

Likewise as a snowmobiler, I appreciate the off trail riding sport and wish it well, but I don't think organized snowmobiling, as I know it currently, has any business or mandate to promote, produce or sanction off trail riding opportunities. Here in Ontario, organized sledding means the OFSC, which isn't perfect, but has done way more good than harm over the years. Some member clubs of the OFSC, in areas where powder riding is readily available, may want to get into promoting the off trail experience. Hopefully this can be done utilizing fresh new volunteers from within their membership, not the volunteers who continue to provide the trail system that we ride now. This is the model that has been used for years by off-road motorcycling clubs who promote both racing and trail riding. Some club members provide the racing opportunities, while others concentrate on creating good trail rides, and a good number volunteer for both.

 

When I read the first Lester editorial that slomo referred to, suggesting that organized snowmobiling has an opportunity to engage the off trail crowd and almost an obligation to find riding areas for them in conjunction with current trail networks, I was somewhat taken back, but assumed he had just got too close to his whiskey bottle while he belted out his tune. When I read the second one in the most recent Supertrax issue, I asked myself WTF? He must be serious!!! An opportunity definitely exists, but it is not for the provincial and state federations that are currently producing our groomed trails! A new sport is being promoted by the manufacturers, sledding media and riding enthusiasts. I wish them every success in pooling their talents to produce the top notch deep powder riding experience that the industry is advertising. Dig in boys and girls, its all yours.

 

well said!

[Panther340]

I suspect a bigger decision in next couple of years will be the tracked dirt bikes (I want one too!!)  , they won't be used for ice fishing or going from community to community like OFSC touring trail riders ....they are sort of like the seadoos product when they came out , you don't fish from them you just have fun . ...and these will also need the powder bowls like the boondocker snowmachine types ................and so will also want to use OFSC trails to get there when they get close to the powder.......so OFSC will have to deal with the off trail wandering these trail riders are likely to cause and impacts on private land owners will be magnified further. IT's a product that needs a place to play , and unlike Seadoos and lakes that are readily available to trailer to, these need trailering or trails (OFSC permit ?) to get there. Or imaginative riders that find their own way to get to the powder, myself if I bought one I would find the powder myself.

[skidooboy]

loophole now panther, if they (bike) can be registered street legal, and has the track kit ski on it, "technically" it is an over the snow vehicle, and meets those criteria. so in essence, one could buy a permit, and ride trails and or access offtrail, opportunities. (yes we have one). this will open up a whole nother can of worms. they are coming, get used to it Ski

[Panther340]

I agree Skidooboy, heck I used my endure dirt bike on the street legally and in the bush, and on the ice covered lake with hex head sheet metal screws in the tires, I can only imagine how much fun that would be in deep snow with a ski upfront and a track instead (I watched some videos of them) ............ and yes that was my point another can of worms

[iangj]

Kiss the trails goodbye

[soupkids]

5 hours ago, skidooboy said:

loophole now panther, if they (bike) can be registered street legal, and has the track kit ski on it, "technically" it is an over the snow vehicle, and meets those criteria. so in essence, one could buy a permit, and ride trails and or access offtrail, opportunities. (yes we have one). this will open up a whole nother can of worms. they are coming, get used to it Ski

Does not meet the criteria of the MSVA.

 

“motorized snow vehicle” means a self-propelled vehicle designed to be driven primarily on snow;