bbakernbay Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 If $15 is nothing to complain about then why is the OFSC afraid to raise the trail pass by $15 ? Exactly, $15,000 sleds, $5,000 trailers, $1,500 insurance, $2,000 in gear, $160 motel rooms, $6 beers, $50 every tank on and on it goes but can't cough up $180, Give Me a F....I got Break. Groomers and drags almost touching $300,000, 13% of Trail Permit for Insurance, fuel bills every week and all on the back of thousands of Volunteer hours to make it happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 If $15 is nothing to complain about then why is the OFSC afraid to raise the trail pass by $15 ? Exactly, $15,000 sleds, $5,000 trailers, $1,500 insurance, $2,000 in gear, $160 motel rooms, $6 beers, $50 every tank on and on it goes but can't cough up $180, Give Me a F....I got Break. Groomers and drags almost touching $300,000, 13% of Trail Permit for Insurance, fuel bills every week and all on the back of thousands of Volunteer hours to make it happen and still we get these Freeloaders cheating you and I and everyone else that pays their measly $180. The Government is scared or incapable of helping one of the biggest tourism businesses this Province has ch winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Landowner tax credits? I like the sound of that.... https://www.ontario.ca/page/managed-forest-tax-incentive-program Something along the lines like this could be easy. Submit your LUP from the local club w/ your income tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 I don't recall ever seeing STOP officers operating on their own (w/o OPP constables), so I can't see how the program expanded enforcement on the trails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake G Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Exactly, $15,000 sleds, $5,000 trailers, $1,500 insurance, $2,000 in gear, $160 motel rooms, $6 beers, $50 every tank on and on it goes but can't cough up $180, Give Me a F....I got Break. Groomers and drags almost touching $300,000, 13% of Trail Permit for Insurance, fuel bills every week and all on the back of thousands of Volunteer hours to make it happen and still we get these Freeloaders cheating you and I and everyone else that pays their measly $180. The Government is scared or incapable of helping one of the biggest tourism businesses this Province has ch winter. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 It is funny that skiers are able to pay the real cost of their sport, but sldders, most of whom are in the same income bracket are spoiled babies that need discounted prices that cover less than half the real cost of having trails, and government grants as well. There is no cheaper whinier group on this planet than the Ontario sledder. I paid over $1k for ski passesmthis year, plus have payed to night ski at other resorts, paid for two ski trips to QC and bought trail passes I have yet to use. Trail pass is still a deal even if I do not ride at all because mid assures man system is there for next year if we do get snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Zoso, I do not generally comment on your posts elsewhere but you are exactly right with your ski pass cost analogy and especially your last sentence is right on. Thank you for speaking up. I really don't know the answer. You discount and sell 75% of your passes at a near loss and never raise the price in 5 years, give away a free 3 day pass on the busiest weekend of the year one week after the Quebec Free Weekend so you are setting many up to buy a multi day in ON and multi day in QC and they have 10 days for $150. Cancel Family Day Long weekend for a year or two to get the Liberal government's attention and/or make the free weekend the same weekend as QC, makes sense to me. Do motels, restaurants, ski hills, Walmart give away their product on the busiest days of the year for their paying customers? The answer is an unequivocal NO. Why do we insist on repeating this folly every year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake G Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 It sometimes feels like a house of cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techdenis007 Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 So I have to ask ... If it's really the end of the STOP program, and all trail patrol officers are to stop what their duties immediately, why is it that we saw a group of 4 sleds on the trail, 2 trail patrol vests, checked our permits and let us pass. WTF ?!? They not go to the post office yet ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 So I have to ask ... If it's really the end of the STOP program, and all trail patrol officers are to stop what their duties immediately, why is it that we saw a group of 4 sleds on the trail, 2 trail patrol vests, checked our permits and let us pass. WTF ?!? They not go to the post office yet ? Stop is not trail patrol and trail patrol is still out there working. That is why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 This lack of enforcement is going to bite us in the ass huge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techdenis007 Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Stop is not trail patrol and trail patrol is still out there working. That is why. So I'm guessing Trail Patrol are simply club volunteers that do a variety of tasks .... trail inspection, brushing, checking for passes, water crossings, etc. ? If so then that would make sense. Thanks for the clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white dragon Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 WTF ?!? They not go to the post office yet ? good one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake G Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 So I'm guessing Trail Patrol are simply club volunteers that do a variety of tasks .... trail inspection, brushing, checking for passes, water crossings, etc. ? If so then that would make sense. Thanks for the clarification. Trail Patrol ARE specific club volunteers, with a one day training course on being a Trail Patrol. They wear the orange vests and represent the club out on the trails by checking for trail permits and being "ambassadors" of the sport. These same volunteers may or may not engage in other activities for the club, such as trail inspection, brushing etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techdenis007 Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Thanks Blake, I thought that was the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowTouringGuy Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Trail Patrol ARE specific club volunteers, with a one day training course on being a Trail Patrol. They wear the orange vests and represent the club out on the trails by checking for trail permits and being "ambassadors" of the sport. These same volunteers may or may not engage in other activities for the club, such as trail inspection, brushing etc. What is/was the difference between Trail Patrol and STOP in terms of authority, etc? Is there enough of an overlap for someone to have considered saving costs by eliminating one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Trail Patrol could / can file a Notice of Trespass and then present it to the local police for possible follow up. STOP could write Provincial Offense Notices (tickets) for anything under the MSVA. That could be anything from speeding, lack of paperwork, including permit, failure to stop at a stop sign, etc. They could not charge for trespassing (different act), drinking and driving (Criminal Code), etc. Only MSVA offences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowTouringGuy Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Trail Patrol could / can file a Notice of Trespass and then present it to the local police for possible follow up. STOP could write Provincial Offense Notices (tickets) for anything under the MSVA. That could be anything from speeding, lack of paperwork, including permit, failure to stop at a stop sign, etc. They could not charge for trespassing (different act), drinking and driving (Criminal Code), etc. Only MSVA offences. Well, my speculation about potential overlap sure was wrong. In fact, based on the above, if the intent was simply to cut numbers they toasted the wrong group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperG Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Once again this is not really the OFSC wanting to get rid of STOP or crunching numbers. The termination of STOP was through the OPP! particularly from the SAVE team! As they were looked at by the opp for getting rid of so in order for them to justify their positions and not go back to regular duties these egotistical group wanted STOP gone therefore crying to their union which now the OPP have gotten rid of a great program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Someone please do the math for me. How much would the val tag have to be to provide enough money for OFSC trails and needs. And if it was raised by that amount (lets guess $40 biannually )so say OFSC gets $20 per machine less any paper work fees maybe $15 ..............so the same people that are complaining that $180 per year for trail pass will have to pay 180 plus 20 = $200/yr..........don't you think they will still complain? And how many of the snowmachine owners that now don't use the trails are no longer going to bother getting val tags to use a machine three times at the cottage. Or how many in north (like Thunder bay) will pay the extra val tag fee and then feel that they should be able to use trails because they used to pay $0 for val tag so must get something out of it, and now that STOP is gone, won't freeloaders just get worse? just some thoughts to throw around A 20 or 30 dollar increase in the Val tags isn't what I think you'll see... I see the permit going by the way side and a $120 Val tag price.. what was it last year 80,000 permits but 120,000 Val tags or something like that few years back. This is what most of the US states have gone too along with BC and most other provinces. I think Ontario is one of 3 provinces left who still have a standalone permit system. Thus type of system makes it easier for OPP to impound the sled at a check point as well for no permit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucking Pig Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 A 20 or 30 dollar increase in the Val tags isn't what I think you'll see... I see the permit going by the way side and a $120 Val tag price.. what was it last year 80,000 permits but 120,000 Val tags or something like that few years back. This is what most of the US states have gone too along with BC and most other provinces. I think Ontario is one of 3 provinces left who still have a standalone permit system. Thus type of system makes it easier for OPP to impound the sled at a check point as well for no permit. This not fair to the non-trail using snowmobile owner. There is not even a trail for me to utilize anywhere nearby. There are lots of people who have no use for OFSC trails I know there will be nasty names called at me because of this position, but that's the way it is. I would take my chances and not buy a Val tag at this cost. I fully support any efforts to increase permit compliance on your trails, but I feel that targeting sledders who don't use you trails is wrong. It should be user pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 This not fair to the non-trail using snowmobile owner. There is not even a trail for me to utilize anywhere nearby. There are lots of people who have no use for OFSC trails I know there will be nasty names called at me because of this position, but that's the way it is. I would take my chances and not buy a Val tag at this cost. I fully support any efforts to increase permit compliance on your trails, but I feel that targeting sledders who don't use you trails is wrong. It should be user pay. I can see your point. Largely I would prfer a user pay system that is enforceable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Me too but this government has got to get tough with legislation to make it unthinkable to travel OFSC trails without a valid permit. The math is 80,000 x at least $80 loss = $6,400,000 Val Tag brings in 40,000 x $120 = $4,800,000 Therefore net loss of $1,600,000. Plus political dynamite to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucking Pig Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Me too but this government has got to get tough with legislation to make it unthinkable to travel OFSC trails without a valid permit. The math is 80,000 x at least $80 loss = $6,400,000 Val Tag brings in 40,000 x $120 = $4,800,000 Therefore net loss of $1,600,000. Plus political dynamite to boot. This I would support 100%. Absolutely, make it unthinkable to ride on your trails without a permit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 This not fair to the non-trail using snowmobile owner. There is not even a trail for me to utilize anywhere nearby. There are lots of people who have no use for OFSC trails I know there will be nasty names called at me because of this position, but that's the way it is. I would take my chances and not buy a Val tag at this cost. I fully support any efforts to increase permit compliance on your trails, but I feel that targeting sledders who don't use you trails is wrong. It should be user pay. I agree but it's the system much more widely used then ours. Is it more enforceable? I have no idea. Is it easier to punish those who disobey? Maybe but there still is the whole lack of enforcement either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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