Big Pete Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 02Sled, I'll take that as a friendly amendment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Since the processing of one order for multiple permits is only one single transaction with the data processing portion being only marginally greater, the credit card processing fee is consistent whether in person or electronically through Moneris and the only real variable is the extra page of paper to print and the extra permit to put in the same envelope with postage not changing I would suggest that each additional permit would be $3.75. But the CC charges will over 5 bucks for each permit. Whose going to pay the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 But the CC charges will over 5 bucks for each permit. Whose going to pay the difference? Especially since the fulfillment also includes some labour and profit component. The $7.50 is based upon the $180 permit, but I believe the real cost will escalate as the price increases. And, I don't have a problem with the company making a profit, as long as it is a reasonable amount per permit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Credit card charges are vvariable and negotiated by the merchant if they are a large enough volume. Amex has the highest fees. By using a third party for fulfillment we can leverage their transaction volume for low transaction fees. Even the. Varying Visa cards with rewards have varying transaction fees. I would wager the online processor we are using have very favourable rates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 $25 day permit, minimum 2 day purchase. It can also be used to upgrade to a full season permit if they decide they will be doing more riding in Ontario.. Win/Win Anyone know if that 2 days in a row or can you buy it for say this Friday and next Friday sort of thing. I'm not putting a permit on the 380 this year as it only saw the trail 2 days last season. Figure just run day permits on it. I can plan 2 days, just don't want to be force in to 2 in a row. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Anyone know if that 2 days in a row or can you buy it for say this Friday and next Friday sort of thing. I'm not putting a permit on the 380 this year as it only saw the trail 2 days last season. Figure just run day permits on it. I can plan 2 days, just don't want to be force in to 2 in a row. It is a minimum 2 consecutive days. So, in your example, it would be $50 for each Friday (and Saturday). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Groomer Guy Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 I wish this was the only way the OFSC sold permits. My reasoning is that it takes the burden away from the individual clubs and more importantly, reduces the overall costs for the OFSC. Less costs means more money for the clubs to groom with and keep the clubs functional. I was very happy with the ease of purchase and timely manner in which I received my permit. Carmen I like the Online permit but I'm not totally sold on the "Online Only" there is Old timers that refuse to use credit cards online, many People do not have credit cards, There is still people that want to just show up and slap $180... $210 on the table sign the paper and go. last year I had to do the registrations for a few people, help them out. $180 price is good but I've lost permit sales because people did not want to do it online. I do understand why we need this and the work and money it will save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 I like the Online permit but I'm not totally sold on the "Online Only" there is Old timers that refuse to use credit cards online, many People do not have credit cards, There is still people that want to just show up and slap $180... $210 on the table sign the paper and go. last year I had to do the registrations for a few people, help them out. $180 price is good but I've lost permit sales because people did not want to do it online. I do understand why we need this and the work and money it will save. There has to be an alternative to online. As you say not everyone has internet access, trusts their credit card information online etc. Especially when you hear of credit card numbers being compromised. Perhaps it will come down to a club accepting cash or credit card from someone, collecting their information and placing the order online but that opens up another aspect. How do they process the credit card, how do they handle the processing fees, how do they have people available when the person wants to buy the permit and how do they deal with the person who is standing there wanting a permit to ride today and expecting it in their hands. I can anticipate hearing that they can print a temporary permit on paper but.... who is going to tape that big piece of paper to the windshield which means people get stopped with a piece of paper in their pocket and feel hassled while they wait for the permit to arrive. What happens to paper when it gets wet.... it doesn't do well does it. Nobody has ever ridden and got caught in a bit of drizzle or rain have they. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Voyant Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Unfortunately, the MTO has been tightening their requirements (it's THEIR permit, after all). Perhaps if all Permit Selling Entities had been submitting all permit applications, completed fully and correctly, they would not be in a position to "put their foot down" as it were. IMO, the only other place besides on-line where permits should be available is at any Service Ontario office. After all, you can't get your vehicle licence plates at your local variety store. As for printing out paper "temporary" permits, we already have that option for the "Try Our Trails" free day of riding. Just fold on the dotted line and put in a Ziploc baggie and tape that to your windshield. The instructions recommend this and it works. Have seen dozens on Trail Patrol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 There has to be an alternative to online. As you say not everyone has internet access, trusts their credit card information online etc. Especially when you hear of credit card numbers being compromised. Perhaps it will come down to a club accepting cash or credit card from someone, collecting their information and placing the order online but that opens up another aspect. How do they process the credit card, how do they handle the processing fees, how do they have people available when the person wants to buy the permit and how do they deal with the person who is standing there wanting a permit to ride today and expecting it in their hands. I can anticipate hearing that they can print a temporary permit on paper but.... who is going to tape that big piece of paper to the windshield which means people get stopped with a piece of paper in their pocket and feel hassled while they wait for the permit to arrive. What happens to paper when it gets wet.... it doesn't do well does it. Nobody has ever ridden and got caught in a bit of drizzle or rain have they. They can use a pre-paid credit card if they want to go that route. Another idea was to get ofsc gift cards to the same effect and use those for online purchases. Going comepletely online may not be the answer for all, but to make MTO happy this is the route we are fored to go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Voyant Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Pre-paid credit card is the way to go. Have read previous arguments against them, stating that the on-line application requires credit card expiry date and security code 3-digit number, and that pre-paid cards don't have them. This is NOT true. Also, have read posts against on-line purchasing of permits for new sleds ordered but not delivered yet. I understand people have been completeing their on-line applications in these instances but simply typing "Pending" in the V.I.N. field, and the application is accepted. You can then go back and update your profile when the new sled is delivered. I always thought snowmobilers were progressive and forward thinking people. We need to stop finding ways to argue against on-line permit sales and start finding ways to embrace it and work to overcome the few small imaginary hurdles. On-line sales is, by far, the most cost effective way to get our money ON THE SNOW. If we want new groomers and to re-open old trails, then we need to embrace a new business model or it ain't gonna happen, people. "MORE ON THE SNOW" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 They can use a pre-paid credit card if they want to go that route. Another idea was to get ofsc gift cards to the same effect and use those for online purchases. Going comepletely online may not be the answer for all, but to make MTO happy this is the route we are fored to go... I do like the option that was mentioned by Claire Voyant to some extent is that Service Ontario be able to process and provide for those who don't want to do it online. I currently do my val tags online and have the option of going to the Service Ontario office to get them however the concern that comes to mind would be the availability and access to the permit funds as the province would be the ones collecting the money and then we wait for dispersal. It would put the trail permit on par with the other provincial tagging / license systems for the most part however there still remain provincial exceptions such as a fishing license. I still renew mine at the Home Hardware in Coldwater however they go online to do it. As for the paper permits... it was mentioned it is done for the try our trails. Some people do as suggested put the paper in plastic and tape it to the windshield. That is for one weekend though and lots of people print it and stick it in a pocket. Most TP I have spoken to don't even bother checking on that weekend since so many tell you it is in their pocket or they thought it was just a free weekend and didn't know you had to print a permit. You actually have to have them stop so you can see the detail printed on the paper to determine if it is valid rather than they slow down so you can spot the permit and keep on going. If the paper permits become a frequent item throughout the season for the day passes and those who print the temporary for I just bought the season pass it will be a nightmare to patrol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Pre-paid credit card is the way to go. Have read previous arguments against them, stating that the on-line application requires credit card expiry date and security code 3-digit number, and that pre-paid cards don't have them. This is NOT true. Also, have read posts against on-line purchasing of permits for new sleds ordered but not delivered yet. I understand people have been completeing their on-line applications in these instances but simply typing "Pending" in the V.I.N. field, and the application is accepted. You can then go back and update your profile when the new sled is delivered. I always thought snowmobilers were progressive and forward thinking people. We need to stop finding ways to argue against on-line permit sales and start finding ways to embrace it and work to overcome the few small imaginary hurdles. On-line sales is, by far, the most cost effective way to get our money ON THE SNOW. If we want new groomers and to re-open old trails, then we need to embrace a new business model or it ain't gonna happen, people. "MORE ON THE SNOW" I am all for embracing technology and evolving toward that solution. I make a living from technology and love it but not everyone does and while you evolve into that technology era you simply can't abandon those who don't embrace it. That tends to be those who are older and have not had the same exposure, don't trust it etc. I know lots of seniors who ride, don't have any need for a computer or the internet and don't want one. As time goes by there will be fewer of those people but to abruptly cut them off is inappropriate at this time for too many of those people are still part of our ridership base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Voyant Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 As for the paper permits... it was mentioned it is done for the try our trails. Some people do as suggested put the paper in plastic and tape it to the windshield. That is for one weekend though and lots of people print it and stick it in a pocket. Most TP I have spoken to don't even bother checking on that weekend since so many tell you it is in their pocket or they thought it was just a free weekend and didn't know you had to print a permit. You actually have to have them stop so you can see the detail printed on the paper to determine if it is valid rather than they slow down so you can spot the permit and keep on going. If the paper permits become a frequent item throughout the season for the day passes and those who print the temporary for I just bought the season pass it will be a nightmare to patrol. Agreed that the Try Our Trails weekend is kind of a "freebie" all the way around and not much actual enforcement is done. However, for the new "temporary" multi-day passes I don't really see enforcement as a nightmare, but certainly a challenge. It's supposed to be a "kinder, gentler" Trail Patrol and spotting a temporary permit just gives you an opportunity to engage the rider in a positive way and possibly find a new club member or volunteer. If they don't have it displayed, their stop is just going to be a little longer than usual. (And I'll be carrying a role of Gorilla Tape....just in case!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Voyant Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 I am all for embracing technology and evolving toward that solution. I make a living from technology and love it but not everyone does and while you evolve into that technology era you simply can't abandon those who don't embrace it. That tends to be those who are older and have not had the same exposure, don't trust it etc. I know lots of seniors who ride, don't have any need for a computer or the internet and don't want one. As time goes by there will be fewer of those people but to abruptly cut them off is inappropriate at this time for too many of those people are still part of our ridership base. Yes, but I'm pretty sure they have a neighbour, or family member (think grandkids) who could help them out. I know many clubs are finding ways to help these tech-challenged seniors out with their permit buying. Would love to hear more about that, if anyone would care to share in this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slomo Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Would love to hear more about that, if anyone would care to share in this forum. People in Sweden are hiding cash in their microwaves because of a fascinating — and terrifying — economic experimentSweden is shaping up to be the first country to plunge its citizens into a fascinating — and terrifying — economic experiment: negative interest rates in a cashless society. Sweden is the place where, if you use too much cash, banks call the police because they think you might be a terrorist or a criminal. Swedish banks have started removing cash ATM machines from rural areas, annoying old people and farmers. Credit Suisse says the rule of thumb in Scandinavia is: “If you have to pay in cash, something is wrong.” Sweden is the closest country on the planet to becoming an all-electronic cashless society. So two trends are converging on Sweden at the same time: Sweden is using less and less cash. Sweden is a negative interest rate environment. Article: http://business.financialpost.com/business-insider/people-in-sweden-are-hiding-cash-in-their-microwaves-because-of-a-fascinating-and-terrifying-economic-experiment (they also have snowmobiling in Sweden) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Agreed that the Try Our Trails weekend is kind of a "freebie" all the way around and not much actual enforcement is done. However, for the new "temporary" multi-day passes I don't really see enforcement as a nightmare, but certainly a challenge. It's supposed to be a "kinder, gentler" Trail Patrol and spotting a temporary permit just gives you an opportunity to engage the rider in a positive way and possibly find a new club member or volunteer. If they don't have it displayed, their stop is just going to be a little longer than usual. (And I'll be carrying a role of Gorilla Tape....just in case!) You know that Gorilla tape doesn't come off easily... I think I would rather try and clean up the residue from the actual trail permit than that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 It is a minimum 2 consecutive days. So, in your example, it would be $50 for each Friday (and Saturday). Well now that puts the screws in my plan a little more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Pre-paid credit card is the way to go. Have read previous arguments against them, stating that the on-line application requires credit card expiry date and security code 3-digit number, and that pre-paid cards don't have them. This is NOT true.That totally depends on the card you buy. Some prepaid cards still don't have the 3 digit pin and exp date. You have to look very closely at the type you are buying. A lot of the ones you buy from the gift card rack at your local Walmart or other store don't have this information. Your banks can issue you a prepaid card with all the numbers you need. My son has one, as they are good for helping to build credit by topping them up as you use them.But now a days, if you won't use your card online in fear of the number getting stolen, you need to come out from under the rock. First off they say your more likely to have the number stolen in person then online. That's why they tell you never let someone swipe the card for you, always do it yourself. And should the number be stolen, your covered for anything that you didn't buy. There isn't even any proof required on your part, you just call them. The card companies just reverse the charge and leave it up to the retailer to sort out and prove if the charge was really or not. My wife is a national manager for a major retail chain. She deals with charge backs daily. Some real and some fake... I fell victim to the Home Depot database leak few years back. Visa was blocking charges on my card and sending me a new one before I even knew there was an issue. I guess when you buy lunch for 200 people at a McDonald's in LA, well booking a $500 spa treatment in Florida at the sametime that sets off some red flags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Groomer Guy Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 They can use a pre-paid credit card if they want to go that route. Another idea was to get ofsc gift cards to the same effect and use those for online purchases. Going comepletely online may not be the answer for all, but to make MTO happy this is the route we are fored to go... Imagine if we where going with a valtag permit what it will do ( MTO the big boss of US)..... What good did it really do going with a MTO permit? they changed the snowmobile act but it never really was good for us. Service Ontario would be a great option, that would totally work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Groomer Guy Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 I am all for embracing technology and evolving toward that solution. I make a living from technology and love it but not everyone does and while you evolve into that technology era you simply can't abandon those who don't embrace it. That tends to be those who are older and have not had the same exposure, don't trust it etc. I know lots of seniors who ride, don't have any need for a computer or the internet and don't want one. As time goes by there will be fewer of those people but to abruptly cut them off is inappropriate at this time for too many of those people are still part of our ridership base. Yes, those people have been our long time supporters, we can't just stop serving them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 In a negative interest environment you theoretically have to pay the bank to 'hold' your money. Interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Groomer Guy Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 People in Sweden are hiding cash in their microwaves because of a fascinating — and terrifying — economic experiment Sweden is shaping up to be the first country to plunge its citizens into a fascinating — and terrifying — economic experiment: negative interest rates in a cashless society. Sweden is the place where, if you use too much cash, banks call the police because they think you might be a terrorist or a criminal. Swedish banks have started removing cash ATM machines from rural areas, annoying old people and farmers. Credit Suisse says the rule of thumb in Scandinavia is: “If you have to pay in cash, something is wrong.” Sweden is the closest country on the planet to becoming an all-electronic cashless society. So two trends are converging on Sweden at the same time: Sweden is using less and less cash. Sweden is a negative interest rate environment. Article: http://business.financialpost.com/business-insider/people-in-sweden-are-hiding-cash-in-their-microwaves-because-of-a-fascinating-and-terrifying-economic-experiment (they also have snowmobiling in Sweden) And if ever a big electronic problem is to happened.... they are F-@#U$ yup no money to buy anuthing... cyber money has no use in those time. remember the big Hydro black out.... some did not have money and where stuck... no ATm, banks running to get cash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 That totally depends on the card you buy. Some prepaid cards still don't have the 3 digit pin and exp date. You have to look very closely at the type you are buying. A lot of the ones you buy from the gift card rack at your local Walmart or other store don't have this information. Your banks can issue you a prepaid card with all the numbers you need. My son has one, as they are good for helping to build credit by topping them up as you use them. But now a days, if you won't use your card online in fear of the number getting stolen, you need to come out from under the rock. First off they say your more likely to have the number stolen in person then online. That's why they tell you never let someone swipe the card for you, always do it yourself. And should the number be stolen, your covered for anything that you didn't buy. There isn't even any proof required on your part, you just call them. The card companies just reverse the charge and leave it up to the retailer to sort out and prove if the charge was really or not. My wife is a national manager for a major retail chain. She deals with charge backs daily. Some real and some fake... I fell victim to the Home Depot database leak few years back. Visa was blocking charges on my card and sending me a new one before I even knew there was an issue. I guess when you buy lunch for 200 people at a McDonald's in LA, well booking a $500 spa treatment in Florida at the sametime that sets off some red flags. All true but there are a lot of people especially those who are older who simply do not and will not learn to trust the online process. There are all kinds of things that are out there that prey on peoples paranoia and exposure to vulnerability. One of my favourites is the credit card protecting wallet. They tell you how people will walk past you and pick up your credit card electronically from inside your wallet or purse but keep it inside one of their high tech card holders and it will prevent this from happening. The lock wallet http://www.carolwrightgifts.com/lock-wallet-as-seen-on-tv/43233.cfm?clicksource=ASTV_0000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 And if ever a big electronic problem is to happened.... they are F-@#U$ yup no money to buy anuthing... cyber money has no use in those time. remember the big Hydro black out.... some did not have money and where stuck... no ATm, banks running to get cash I know it is a stretch but look at the mess Greece was/is in and they limited the amount of cash you could withdraw to prevent the total collapse of their economy. Look at our underground economy today where so much is done by cash deals no taxes... that would be eliminated and the government would be able to get every cent of every transaction scrutinized and collect their money No need to file income taxes... they would have everything you took in and everything you spent available on line. You know that sled trailer you bought for $3K but got a receipt for $1K... not going to happen when the money goes from your pocket to mine online... you would probably have the sales tax deducted from your bank the same time as the money went into mine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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