bbakernbay Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share Posted March 29, 2015 By the way, I thought a FFC Val Tag Fee was almost a sure thing by our Lobbyists even though most of us said it won't happen mostly because it is not fair to charge someone for OFSC trails and programs if they do their own thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 By the way, I thought a FFC Val Tag Fee was almost a sure thing by our Lobbyists even though most of us said it won't happen mostly because it is not fair to charge someone for OFSC trails and programs if they do their own thing. Okay so the next question being devils advocate. How is it fair for the province to charge us $15 annually for the val tag since we don't seem to get anything for it? How about they do it like a trailer. One time registration fee and it is done. How is it fair that we all pay the $15 val tag fee when northern Ontario doesn't and as is obvious right now they seem to be able to get to use the snowmobile longer than the rest of us that do pay for the val tag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeater466 Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I haven't heard the province wide totals yet. I don't think our Club total adds to the discussion on whether the current fee structure is putting sufficient dollars on the trails. I believe our total is sufficient to make the percentages fairly realistic across the province. I think what you would have to compare is the number of permits sold now compared to a few years ago where the early early discount did not exist. Also total revenue raised vs operating expenses to get a proper picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techdenis007 Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 More cheap bastards in your area riding classic sleds. Seen a lot of new iron on the trails this year. Chatting with my dealer at sled show in Barrie yesterday tells me sleds sales are good. I still have trouble believing lower trail permit prices are the answer... LOTS of new iron .... Economy is doing better, winters are more normal... Saw quite a few 3 day passes up here in recent weeks. I'm guessing guys making a long weekend trip up North to ride, coming out of the states ... I'm guessing the $200 limit if re-instated would continue to be popular ... No, it's not expensive even at $260 considering the product we have .... so long as you have the mindset of actually taking advantage of that tag and riding trails and using your sled. If you put one on the sled and take 2 or 3 rides, it's a bigger pill to swallow than if you ride regularly. We'll have 2 Classic passes and one normal seasonal pass next year. It costs what it costs, for the amount of use it gets I'm fine with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucking Pig Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 You don't pay F all for my Val tag. What exactly does the snowmobile Val tag cover for the govt? Nothing. It's just revenue. Period. Whatever. We've all been down this garden path before, and I don't feel like arguing it again. I will continue to think what I think, and you will think what you do. What are we? Discussion # 30 or so on this topic? I hold no ill will towards you or your trails, but I don't feel I should pay for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I am going to be a crap shack in Debreville and make it my main address. No more valtag or e testing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I think what you would have to compare is the number of permits sold now compared to a few years ago where the early early discount did not exist. Also total revenue raised vs operating expenses to get a proper picture. What you are suggesting would be an appropriate comparison however one of the constant challenges we have is that it is almost impossible to do an apples to apples comparison. Best we will ever be able to do is likely an apple to grapefruit since we have to throw the amount of snowfall we get into the equation and that is both current year and previous year. An outstanding season like we had in 13/14 would have played a part in the 14/15 numbers especially with the early season tease we got in November. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 You don't pay F all for my Val tag. What exactly does the snowmobile Val tag cover for the govt? Nothing. It's just revenue. Period. Whatever. We've all been down this garden path before, and I don't feel like arguing it again. I will continue to think what I think, and you will think what you do. What are we? Discussion # 30 or so on this topic? I hold no ill will towards you or your trails, but I don't feel I should pay for them. You're partially right. It means less revenue for the province when you get a val tag for free but you seem to overlook that the val tag you have does have a cost in the background. The paperwork, the tag itself, the labour for processing and storing of the information all cost money. It gets paid for by someone and it sure isn't you. Perhaps if you paid for yours just like everyone else the cost for those who do pay for it could be less. Your area receives funding that everyone subsidizes including those who live in other parts of the province.... just the way it is. Things like $1,5M in forgivable loans to renovate homes for people with a family income of $75K or less. Ontario RenovatesPosted by DebbieR on May 5, 2014 Do you need home repairs or renovations? Is your house in Dorion, Red Rock, or Nipigon? On March 28th, The District of Thunder Bay Social Services Administration board allocated $1,500,000 under the Investment in Affordable Housing for Ontario Program- Ontario Renovates. This program provides assistance for home renovation in the form of a forgivable loan to the homeowner based on the cost and approved work items. The ONTARIO RENOVATES PROGRAM may be able to help if: Your total household income is at or below the 60th income percentile for this service area, currently $75,400, and the market value of your home is at or below the average resale price for the Thunder Bay District (currently $215,738). The condition of your home is substandard or deficient and needs repair to bring it up to a reasonable standard. Your cash and assets are at or below $20,000 (savings account, bonds, NOT INCLUDING locked in RRSP/RESP/RDSP). The house that needs repair is your sole and principal residence. I really don't have a problem with this but I pay into it like all taxpayers do... just the way it is. We agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diceman Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 So why do we continue to give away a 3 Day Family Day Weekend Permit every year? I think its to get people involved, exposed to the trails,,,I personally know 3 different families that after participating in the free weekend purchased sleds and passes for the following year...exposing theses young kids to the sport will hopefully build memories and as they get older they too will buy sleds, volunteer, etc....anyone who wants to ride will buy a pass...no one will make me believe that because we have a free weekend guys are not buying a pass....it is a very expensive sport, especially for young families starting out.....people I talk to who do not want to buy passes seem more concerned about the idiots buying passes and driving like dorks rather than the cost of the pass... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther340 Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Ah.............. the bashing of Northern Ontario from the same cuprit with little understanding of the costs and benefits (or lack thereof in the North) I guess if we were not here at all , we could all live in the Golden Horseshoe and 401 corridor and there would be no one up here but a few Native reserves.. I wonder who would be making the trails and grooming them the winters that are more typical, or how would our provinces freight go across the provinces empty lands with out a few towns for rail and highways........or how would we build our homes with those things called 2 x4's , or gold or nickel or ????............. I guess we could all work at the big box stores on the 401 , maybe Future Shop even ! However I do see that most here over the past year have realised that the trail permit is small percentage of the sport you want to partake in and most are smart enough to realise that $240 is a pittance compared to other winter sports. (I don't use the trails) But some are determined to pretend that the North is the useless Orphan the South is paying to support and we have too many benefits. While at the same time Toronto Councillors put out their hand and demand MAJOR transit and Subway money from the province. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomic Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I will stir the pot a little if that's all right? I have said this for yrs,and have heard all the pros & cons but will put it out there again! Screw all this bs with early price,classic price all of it ! One price , say $200.00 for all sleds with license renewal period. Brings money to clubs all year long!! Flame on,I can take it!! I think if you remove early price you will lose tons of sales. Some people will wait to see what conditions are like near their place and then only buy if conditions are good around their place. Some years in the south the trails only opened for a weekend or two. Those same people on those bad condition years might say f' it to a pass since I'm only gonna use it once or twice. Buying early ensures revenue regardless of mother nature. You pay insurance on your car, regardless if you plan on being in a wreck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 It seems someone from the north contiues to lament how he doesn't want to pay for something he doesn't use... time and time again and at the same time is happy to take advantage of the provincial funds that are taken from all taxpayers in the province and spent in his area. Personally I fully accept that this is just the way it is in the society in which we live. We all pay into the federal and provincial governments for services and more that we will never use. The difference is I don't have a problem with it. Just the way it is but someone from the north keeps lamenting about one particular scenario and that is not paying for the trails he doesn't use. Reality is that he is already paying for trails he doesn't use since there are provincial grants and funding typically going to the OFSC for trail development that comes from his tax dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther340 Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Actually O2 Sled and I have stated in the past, (and thanks for making my point) I have no problem with some of my tax dollars going to support a substantial portion of OFSC budget needs. Because just like the Government I agree that some tourism dollars are the result of that investment the Government makes in the OFSC. So just like I don't use the swimming pool, I don't mind some of my tax dollars going there and some going to OFSC. But that is not enough for you ..........you want even more from my pocket. You, for your sport use pleasure want to go from paying $15 ( license fee ) plus $240 for trail = $255 to legally do your sport ( I do not include insurance and clothing and gas because that is moot.) You want to go to $200 all in....so a reduction of $55 to use all your groomed trails . Whereas you want me to further subsidise your sport (by your all in tag ) by me going from $0 to $200 , so I can go ice fishing 30 miles from the nearest OFSC groomed trails, with no interest whatosever in using your trails. ...and thousands and thousands of others around me in the north ride our machines without need for OFSC. Me thinks I am coming out with the short end of the stick and your getting to do a high end sport for less money than you used to. Fortunately there are thousands of OFSC members that do not begrudge the riders that don't need or want the trails and instead are happy to spend the equivalent of 3 down hill ski day passes to ride the complete province for 90 or more days They recognize that it would be selfish to expect non trail riders to subsidise further their sport. When they already know our tax dollars are helping them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Personally I haven't a problem with the cost of the permit the way it is. For me I see it as a bargain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 That just makes you cheap too.... sorry... just couldn't resist. It was too easy. I think that was the point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Ah.............. the bashing of Northern Ontario from the same cuprit with little understanding of the costs and benefits (or lack thereof in the North) I guess if we were not here at all , we could all live in the Golden Horseshoe and 401 corridor and there would be no one up here but a few Native reserves.. I wonder who would be making the trails and grooming them the winters that are more typical, or how would our provinces freight go across the provinces empty lands with out a few towns for rail and highways........or how would we build our homes with those things called 2 x4's , or gold or nickel or ????............. I guess we could all work at the big box stores on the 401 , maybe Future Shop even ! However I do see that most here over the past year have realised that the trail permit is small percentage of the sport you want to partake in and most are smart enough to realise that $240 is a pittance compared to other winter sports. (I don't use the trails) But some are determined to pretend that the North is the useless Orphan the South is paying to support and we have too many benefits. While at the same time Toronto Councillors put out their hand and demand MAJOR transit and Subway money from the province. I can't find reference to Northern Ontario and their free ride anywhere in the thread. The reference was to the fact that we pay $15 for a VAL Tag and get nothing for it. The topic should have gone to a comparison of ATV vs Snowmobile, where the ATV is a once time charge for registration. Where does the $15 go? I personally see no reason why the fees are any different anywhere in the province. The average costs of housing is higher in the cities and as such salaries are higher to attract people to live and work in the area. We were gifted with the 407 that gouges us to commute to work in a reasonable time. I would love to keep my current income and live up north. Reality is that I would take a pay decrease to be able to live in a area where life is just so good that all I have to complain about is the cost of my VAL tag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucking Pig Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 The Val Tag break for Northerners was brought in by the NDP government back in, what? The 90's? As a nod to our higher gas prices. I would gladly pay for the 15 dollar Val tag, in return for lower gas prices. I would grudgingly pay the $15 fee if they eliminated the free one ($15 is better in my pocket than theirs). I don't really care about the $15. That's 02's argument. I don't think I should have to pay for a trail system I cannot use. And, please. Comparing RECREATIONAL snowmobile trails to the school system? Really? I pay my fair share of taxes. My wife and I just had to write a $5000.00 cheque to Mr. Harper, et al. I'm sure if I looked, I could find a subsidized housing program for Peel region. That argument is irrelevant. We're talking about RECREATIONAL snowmobile trails here folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 How about recreational waterways like the Trent Severn waterway that we all pay into through our Federal Tax $'s although not all people in Canada are boaters and of those that are not all will use the waterway. Just the way it is. I haven't heard those in the prairies concerned about their money going to something recreational they will never use or even those in Toronto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 How about recreational waterways like the Trent Severn waterway that we all pay into through our Federal Tax $'s although not all people in Canada are boaters and of those that are not all will use the waterway. Just the way it is. I haven't heard those in the prairies concerned about their money going to something recreational they will never use or even those in Toronto. There is no cost to register a vessel in Canada. The U.S. system is run by each state. Michigan for example charges fees in a VAL Tag type system. The Locks are pay per use, but the infrastructure is government subsidized. Without this, a good portion of tourism would die and a lot of history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 There is no cost to register a vessel in Canada. The U.S. system is run by each state. Michigan for example charges fees in a VAL Tag type system. The Locks are pay per use, but the infrastructure is government subsidized. Without this, a good portion of tourism would die and a lot of history. I agree totally. Bucking Pig refers to not wanting to pay for a recreational activity that he will never use. I just provided an example of a recreational activity his federal tax dollars subsidize along with the National Parks like Beausoleil Island that he will never use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Start thinking recreational motorsports val tag because thats the route it will be going. It wont be a tag for a specific user group IMO..... For each user group within the recreational catchment they will recieve some funding. Seems to be the best route that I can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Sorry Paul. Have to respectfully disagree. Just like the provincial gov't keeps raising hunting and fishing licences , for what?. More enforcement (NOT) more stocking (NOT) more enhancement (NOT) more partnerships (NOT). All of the increases, similar to the original plan that licence dollar where going to go directly back into the Ministry of Natural Resources was "not the truth". The monies were directed into the "general tax fund". Is this any different. No one is going to KEEP the promise of the funds comingback specific to our sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aar0n Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 We had 247 Try Our Trails No Cost Permits this year. How to convert those is the question. Firstly, I think we need to END this program as it has served its purpose. That will create some additional sales for sure. It is unwise to have it every year. COMPLETELY AGREE. And 180$ for a permit....seriously.... That's 3 lift tickets at blue mountain. 3months and 30000km of trails is worth way more than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 We tend to possibly be a bit more hardcore than most that ride and see the value in the permit. Even for the hardcore there is a price point that they will say is too much for a trail permit. For each person that will vary. I don't know what it would be for me but it is a fair bit more than $187.50. I had a conversation with a friend of mine recently about what is the tipping point based on income today. For him he figures that if it hit around the $300 mark he would have to think about it. Up to there he would likely be fine. I am thinking I would be good for sure up to about $350 - $400 before I started to reflect on the value but would propbably still keep going. I can see however where someone who doesn't have a place to stay, can't afford $100+ a night for a place to sleep each Saturday night so only rides once a week on Saturdays after driving north from the GTA and with other family commitments only gets out perhaps every other Saturday may reflect on the value proposition. They can accept what is essentially the one time cost of buying the sled, trailer and gear that will last for years. It is the recurring cost and the permit is one that will make them think. It all depends on the individual situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther340 Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Fortunately it will be political suicide for any Provincial Government to, in the times of austerity, impose a $200 license plate fee . The sheet would hit the fan from the communities MP's , the trapppers associations, the Angler and Hunter organizations, Natives and the farmers with snowmachines, the media would research further and expose how much the OFSC already is subsidised by the tax payer , the Government would backup and reduce the amount they suggested they would of gave the OFSC with the new $200 model............and in the end the OFSC (if the $200 was imposed) would be getting less than they do now, they would of set another too low benchmark for what it takes to support their sport, and they would have thousands and thousands pee ed off snowmachine owners, that if they do live close to trail, will make sure they use and abuse the trails with a "hey we paid for it attitude" on every corner ........making the trails more unsafe and more yahoos on it that you already have to deal with cutting the corners and speeding. The OFSC might be going from the frying pan to the fire with that choice. They may want to instead focus on what is going to happen when Ontario Hydro and it transmission lines part of the buisness get sold off privatel like Wynne is exploring, because any influence the OFSC had on trails under the powerlines would be lost if Ontario Government loses direct influence on users of their corridors and instead you have a private risk averse company not willing to deal with the liability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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