not so good news from northern ontario

[slomo]

Seems like another organized touring system is also under siege for funds....the Trent/Severn Canal:

 

http://moosefm.com/cklps/news/town-council-petitioning-the-changes-at-the-trent-severn-waterway/

 

"The Town of Parry Sound is petitioning Parks Canada to reverse changes made to staff and hours of operation.  Recently, 23 Trent-Severn Waterway lock masters and operators have received layoff notices and the hours of operation on the waterway will be reduced by 2 to 3.5 hours daily resulting in anticipated delays in moving through the system.  The Trent-Severn Waterway is a key link between Georgian Bay and Lake Ontario for boaters who rely on the waterway as a critical part of the loop within the Great Lakes system and also provides a significant boost to the tourism industry along the entire system including Georgian Bay and Parry Sound.  So at Tuesday night’s meeting council voted to send a petition to give serious reconsideration to the economic impacts of making such dramatic changes to the operations of the Trent-Severn Waterway system and increase funding to the operations of the system to protect the economic viability of the impacted communities."

 

It occured to me 'why not join all such systems together as an all season tourism draw?' I realize there is a dichotomy between the canal being a federal responsibility and the trail system being provincial, but the canal is wholely in Ontario. Seems to have win-win potential.

[Wildbill]

Seems like another organized touring system is also under siege for funds....the Trent/Severn Canal:

 

http://moosefm.com/cklps/news/town-council-petitioning-the-changes-at-the-trent-severn-waterway/

 

"The Town of Parry Sound is petitioning Parks Canada to reverse changes made to staff and hours of operation.  Recently, 23 Trent-Severn Waterway lock masters and operators have received layoff notices and the hours of operation on the waterway will be reduced by 2 to 3.5 hours daily resulting in anticipated delays in moving through the system.  The Trent-Severn Waterway is a key link between Georgian Bay and Lake Ontario for boaters who rely on the waterway as a critical part of the loop within the Great Lakes system and also provides a significant boost to the tourism industry along the entire system including Georgian Bay and Parry Sound.  So at Tuesday night’s meeting council voted to send a petition to give serious reconsideration to the economic impacts of making such dramatic changes to the operations of the Trent-Severn Waterway system and increase funding to the operations of the system to protect the economic viability of the impacted communities."

 

It occured to me 'why not join all such systems together as an all season tourism draw?' I realize there is a dichotomy between the canal being a federal responsibility and the trail system being provincial, but the canal is wholely in Ontario. Seems to have win-win potential.

Not saying you wrong but how do you connect these?

[02Sled]

Seems like another organized touring system is also under siege for funds....the Trent/Severn Canal:

 

http://moosefm.com/cklps/news/town-council-petitioning-the-changes-at-the-trent-severn-waterway/

 

"The Town of Parry Sound is petitioning Parks Canada to reverse changes made to staff and hours of operation.  Recently, 23 Trent-Severn Waterway lock masters and operators have received layoff notices and the hours of operation on the waterway will be reduced by 2 to 3.5 hours daily resulting in anticipated delays in moving through the system.  The Trent-Severn Waterway is a key link between Georgian Bay and Lake Ontario for boaters who rely on the waterway as a critical part of the loop within the Great Lakes system and also provides a significant boost to the tourism industry along the entire system including Georgian Bay and Parry Sound.  So at Tuesday night’s meeting council voted to send a petition to give serious reconsideration to the economic impacts of making such dramatic changes to the operations of the Trent-Severn Waterway system and increase funding to the operations of the system to protect the economic viability of the impacted communities."

 

It occured to me 'why not join all such systems together as an all season tourism draw?' I realize there is a dichotomy between the canal being a federal responsibility and the trail system being provincial, but the canal is wholely in Ontario. Seems to have win-win potential.

 

I see this as a big hit to the system. We are just behind lock 45 in Port Severn. Often we have contemplated heading out into the bay for the day but when we look at the line up to lock through and the wait time we realize that we wouldn't have much time out in the bay before we had to head back to get in line to come back up to Little Lake. Similar for Big Chute marine railway. We like to go to the Waubick for lunch sometimes and need the marine railway to get there. We spend more time in line waiting than we do actually traveling in the boat for the round trip. If they shorten the hours that congestion will only get worse.

[slomo]

Not saying you wrong but how do you connect these?

 

Haven't thought that out yet. Any of your experiences with the Park to Park system of trails that might lend an angle?

 

Aside:  I have seen plenty of the frozen Trent canal system that would make excellent trails with a few portage trails around lock areas or open running water.

[Canuck]

Ontario offers world class boating and snowmobiling.

 

This is how government funding/ & resources are allocated? What an embarrassment. 

[02Sled]

Ontario offers world class boating and snowmobiling.

 

This is how government funding/ & resources are allocated? What an embarrassment. 

 

the problem is that one is Federal and the other Provincial as slomo pointed out. Parks Canada has their separate financial constraints... I wonder if they have cut back on the Rideau like they have the Trent. After all it does run through Ottawa

[Wildbill]

I see this as a big hit to the system. We are just behind lock 45 in Port Severn. Often we have contemplated heading out into the bay for the day but when we look at the line up to lock through and the wait time we realize that we wouldn't have much time out in the bay before we had to head back to get in line to come back up to Little Lake. Similar for Big Chute marine railway. We like to go to the Waubick for lunch sometimes and need the marine railway to get there. We spend more time in line waiting than we do actually traveling in the boat for the round trip. If they shorten the hours that congestion will only get worse.

Then would you pay more to maintain the current operating hours or pay a bonus for after hours locking?

[revrnd]

Being in the Kawarthas we hear the opposition to the locking hours all the time. However between when the Trent opens on the May 2-4 weekend and when the Canada Day holiday rolls around (and after Labour Day), how busy are the locks? Maybe some hours could be cut back during the off peak season. I'm sure records are kept determining which locks are busier than others.

 

As 02 said, Parks Canada probably has financial constraints to deal w/. To listen to some people the canal should be open all day long regardless of the traffic, which if one listens to the news each fall, seems to be declining each year. 

 

I can't imagine this summer will be any different what w/ regular gas in the neighbourhood of $1.45 in T.O. I can't imagine what the marinas are charging.

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

My brother delivers boats out of Crates Lake Country. He told me that before Thanksgiving last fall, he was bringing a cruiser back from Bobcaygeon and at the locks from Bolsover down to Lake Simcoe, the same Lockmaster drove from lock to lock and locked him trough them.

[Sasquatch777]

Blow it out your hat, I know all about the northern experience. Why don't you quit your whining and ride what the volunteers provide, or sell ur short track buy a mountain sled and ride with the masses in northern ontario that don't need trails or the ofsc. See that is where you don't comprehend, they don't want us there, they prove it by not supporting the ofsc. You want the real northern experience and see everything it has to offer, go find it, its not on topA

 

Problem with that statement is there are a huge amount of volunteers struggling to keep the trails open in the north. One of the stuggles is the lumping of them in with those who do not support the OFSC. Very deflating to the pride they have and the time they put in!

 

The bully syndrome is when you don't want to be part of that group because they are looked down on, I know people who buy passes but don't put them on thier sleds because their fishing buddys make fun of them for wasting thier dollars. Please don't bully the volunteers we have left! There are those who feel bad because they can't spend the time they want on the trails because they have to work at a job to pay the bills.

 

Sometimes its hard lifting your head high when people put you down because of where you sled! Its also easy to pick a story about diamond miners and think its a true representation about the northern trails. Great headline and like most headlines a bit to sensational. Ya we have our problems and so far the only real thoughts on ways to fix the spiral downward have come from Slomo. I could list a few dozen faults on both sides (OFSC and Clubs) but what is the point! Self defeating and in the past for 99% of them.

 

Couse it fits in with what Akron said only its the Government and OFSC that needs to make an adjustment in snowmobile tourism. We in district 17 have the most awesome trails and Manitoba right next door. 187.50 trail pass is easier to sell to them now that thier pass is 125.00. Selling to minnisota not so easy when thiers is 40 bucks give or take. We are pushing our tourism loops and those that come love our trails. Guess its something positive to add to all this negativity.

 

My favorite ride would be Atikokan to Soiux Lookout to Kenora to Bird Lake (manitoba) Lacdubonnet to Warroad (minnisota) to tower Do a loop to Ely to Atikokan. Ontario, Manitoba and Minnesota. About a week plus long ride, I have done sections of it but am dreaming of the big loop! I like distance!

[Sasquatch777]

As I see it, from a Northern Perspective, this is as close to the truth as I've seen on this site (apart from my own ramblings, of course) 

There was a time when I would get my back up over topics like this, and what I saw as short sighted comments by some folks on the site, but the reality is that the locals (up here anyway) Do Not Care about the OFSC and the trails anymore.

I feel for guys like Akron.  I used to volunteer for my local club and tried hard to make trails that the touring sledder could enjoy, along with the locals.  Then the Econmy tanked, jobs were lost, snowmobiling participation went down and the permit price went up, our dollars to work with went down, so the local loops had to close, and we lost the rest of the locals,  Blah, Blah Blah, i've said all this before. 

I don't know, I guess you need to dig in your trenches, try to preserve what's left, and keep those trails the most people want to pay to ride.  Some day in the future, maybe the environment will change and it will make sense to try it a gain, but for now, I see a gradual (or quick?) withdrawl from the hinterlands by OFSC. 

Good Luck with it!

 

That is the Nipigon perspective! Ours in 17 differs! T-Bay closed thier trails which put the first hole in the A -Trail but they had little or none of your reasons. Ski-Doo makes some very valid points however. Even Wild brings home the point of you want it you keep it going, although his dislike of supporting the North is clear.

[02Sled]

Then would you pay more to maintain the current operating hours or pay a bonus for after hours locking?

 

Probably... actually many states have an annual licence fee for boats I belive. If the province were to charge say $15 per boat as an annual licence fee and put that into a dedicated fund to maintain and create boating related infrastructure such as public docks, launch ramps, the locks on the Trent and Rideau etc. I would probably say okay. The only part that I wouldn't find acceptable is they lie. Just like fishing licences were to go to fisheries management. That didn't last long now it goes to the general coffers.

[02Sled]

Being in the Kawarthas we hear the opposition to the locking hours all the time. However between when the Trent opens on the May 2-4 weekend and when the Canada Day holiday rolls around (and after Labour Day), how busy are the locks? Maybe some hours could be cut back during the off peak season. I'm sure records are kept determining which locks are busier than others.

 

As 02 said, Parks Canada probably has financial constraints to deal w/. To listen to some people the canal should be open all day long regardless of the traffic, which if one listens to the news each fall, seems to be declining each year. 

 

I can't imagine this summer will be any different what w/ regular gas in the neighbourhood of $1.45 in T.O. I can't imagine what the marinas are charging.

 

Early season and late season are shorter operating hours than prime.

 

May 16 to June 19

Monday to Thursday 10:00am – 4:00pm

Friday to Sunday; and Victoria Day 9:00am – 5:00pm

 

June 20 to Sept 1

Monday to Thursday 9:00am – 5:00pm

Friday to Sunday; and Canada Day, August Civic Holiday and Labour Day 9:00am – 6:00pm

 

Sept 2 to Oct 13

Monday to Thursday 10:00am – 4:00pm

Friday to Sunday; and Thanksgiving 9:00am–5:00pm

 

From the traffic I see in Port Severn you could likely cut back operating hours Mon to Thu from May 16 to June 19 and also make the window May 16 to June 26.

 

After labour day September 1 you could probably cut back all days of the week since traffic plummets after that.

 

If on a Saturday I could get through the lock after 6 but before 8 I during prime season I would probably be willing to pay a premium.

[skidooboy]

it seems like it is time for ALL SLEDS to be required to buy val tags, AND trail/operator permits (province wide). maybe look to the mnr type fees, for resident and non resident permits, 1 day, 3 day, 8 day, seasonal, provincial, regional, local, ect.... the only ones removed from required permit buying would be the aboriginals. with the added numbers, the fees would be made reasonable for all user groups. Ski

[Bucking Pig]

And, once again we start the whole val tag debate. You guarantee I get a trail within 100 km, then maybe we can talk. There are still way too many sled that honestly DO NOT ride on OFSC trails, nor have any desire to, for me to agree that it is fair. Same as paying 02's $15 to keep the Trent open. I boat on back woods lakes that hardly have a launch, why would I pay a user fee for the Trent ?

[Wildman]

Problem with that statement is there are a huge amount of volunteers struggling to keep the trails open in the north. One of the stuggles is the lumping of them in with those who do not support the OFSC. Very deflating to the pride they have and the time they put in!

 

The bully syndrome is when you don't want to be part of that group because they are looked down on, I know people who buy passes but don't put them on thier sleds because their fishing buddys make fun of them for wasting thier dollars. Please don't bully the volunteers we have left! There are those who feel bad because they can't spend the time they want on the trails because they have to work at a job to pay the bills.

 

Sometimes its hard lifting your head high when people put you down because of where you sled! Its also easy to pick a story about diamond miners and think its a true representation about the northern trails. Great headline and like most headlines a bit to sensational. Ya we have our problems and so far the only real thoughts on ways to fix the spiral downward have come from Slomo. I could list a few dozen faults on both sides (OFSC and Clubs) but what is the point! Self defeating and in the past for 99% of them.

 

Couse it fits in with what Akron said only its the Government and OFSC that needs to make an adjustment in snowmobile tourism. We in district 17 have the most awesome trails and Manitoba right next door. 187.50 trail pass is easier to sell to them now that thier pass is 125.00. Selling to minnisota not so easy when thiers is 40 bucks give or take. We are pushing our tourism loops and those that come love our trails. Guess its something positive to add to all this negativity.

 

My favorite ride would be Atikokan to Soiux Lookout to Kenora to Bird Lake (manitoba) Lacdubonnet to Warroad (minnisota) to tower Do a loop to Ely to Atikokan. Ontario, Manitoba and Minnesota. About a week plus long ride, I have done sections of it but am dreaming of the big loop! I like distance!

Sorry, you must not understand what I was sayin, when I say they don't want us there (ofsc). I mean the majority of the locals. I wasn't speaking of the volunteers. I know what they go through, we are in this together. It has to suck, building and maintaining trails and locals riding them and not paying to do so.

[Wildman]

That is the Nipigon perspective! Ours in 17 differs! T-Bay closed thier trails which put the first hole in the A -Trail but they had little or none of your reasons. Ski-Doo makes some very valid points however. Even Wild brings home the point of you want it you keep it going, although his dislike of supporting the North is clear.

I do not dislike supporting the north, l dislike the allegations that the federation took local trails and loops from some northern clubs. The clubs had no support via permit sales, the system can't support a bunch of trails that are not supported locally. There are pictures of sleds on trails with no permits, I ride up there and see sleds on trails with no permits. Why does the rest of the system have to struggle to support areas that don't have enough permit sales to operate yet have sleds riding our trail system with no permits? I know it happens everywhere, but it is worse in some areas.

Believe it or not, it doesn't matter where you live in this province, you have to work to pay the bills, the folks on my club don't get paid any more to volunteer than anywhere else in the province. In fact we don't pay groomer operators, which is abnormal in this system, and we groomed close to 900hrs. That is quite a savings for the club.

Are you going to the agm?

[Sasquatch777]

I do not dislike supporting the north, l dislike the allegations that the federation took local trails and loops from some northern clubs. The clubs had no support via permit sales, the system can't support a bunch of trails that are not supported locally. There are pictures of sleds on trails with no permits, I ride up there and see sleds on trails with no permits. Why does the rest of the system have to struggle to support areas that don't have enough permit sales to operate yet have sleds riding our trail system with no permits? I know it happens everywhere, but it is worse in some areas.

Believe it or not, it doesn't matter where you live in this province, you have to work to pay the bills, the folks on my club don't get paid any more to volunteer than anywhere else in the province. In fact we don't pay groomer operators, which is abnormal in this system, and we groomed close to 900hrs. That is quite a savings for the club.

Are you going to the agm?

 

Accually I lived through the close the loops mentality. We kind of made up our own minds as to what we could reasonably maintain with what we had. The direction from the OFSC was close all but the A trail. We kept open some club trails and closed others that hurt us. Later we closed more as we could not maintain them and that hurt us some more. That was not the real struggle however, it was the loss of all the fisherman who used to support us long before the A Trail push. When permits where under a 100 bucks was the time to go to a Val tag system before the OFSC said that fisherman and trappers could use our trails. That created a rift and the fisherman blamed the OFSC for the high prices for permits and took it out on the clubs and the war began. So you wind up with a comunity of rebels that keeps the urban legends alive (OFSC stole the trails etc.) and thats how you get the non permit riders on the trails.

 

But we have made inroads and although we have non permit riders they are not as many as there used to be. Mostly because this country is hard on sleds, not many 15 year old sleds on the trail. Fisherman use old sleds trail riders don't around here. My 99 is in almost new condition as it was stored indoors and maintained properly and has reasonable miles on it (kids sleds girls). I rode with a 2000 sled that was on its second motor and that had been rebuild many times. It blew up on a 70 miles ride and was towed to back. 15 year old sleds on the trails are few and far between here. 90% of them have been beat to death. The rest are collecting dust in a garage or shed somewhere. Very few 2000 to 2003 sleds being run anymore. Heck I relegated my 2005 to standby status and picked up a two year old new left over 2011 which now has 6,500 miles on it.

 

So while there are sleds with no permits that ride our trials they are becoming less all the time. Now the Classic permit has got some of the riders to dust off the old sleds and ride them again, many has stopped riding to raise a family or for other finacial reasons. Now they are getting back into it. I have a buddy with a mint 2000 Mach, that has two little ones but two years from now with them getting older and starting school he might be convinced to ride again with a classic permit but money is tight for him and wifey holds the purse and might be convinced he is getting a bargin. You know women like bargins ( men do too)

 

I know getting a break on the backs of those buying a regular permit! Same as the Southern clubs supporting the Northern ones because we have less riders per mile. It sticks in the craw of the have clubs, that are struggling same as the have not clubs. I could point out what the OFSC pointed out to us, cut some trails, as many as is needed to break even. Problem is that clubs do not want to hear that and instead want to cut the ties with the have not clubs. As a have not club I'm at the mearsy of the haves and will continue to maintain what I can with what I have. That means club trails and loops are closed and only the A trail is maintained with the exception of one D trail that joins another comunity and club. From the looks of it that club is on its way out so two clubs may have to take it over to keep themselves conected, or not.

 

Heck we sold a clubhouse that was the most awesome place to congregate and bond but to costly to maintain, to move to a way less costly but sterile non awesome place with nowhere to congregate but we could aford it. Without the move we would have been bankrupt many years back. We did what was needed to survive. We don't pay any volunteers, our volunteers do not expect or want to be paid. Somehow a volunteer being paid make him a non volunteer as he is earning a wage is the thought. Again we can't afford to pay anyone! We break even and that is with every cost cutting measure we can think of.

 

I'd love to but as it is a 2,000km drive I don't think so. I don't even know if we are sending anyone. I will be down that way in July maybe but I don't think the AGM is in July.  I would love to meet many of you as the internet and the typed word does not show the true person. We just hammer at each other over things that we misinterprit or misunderstand.

 

In the end I agree each and every club must support their trails with what they have, when they stop doing that they are done. Quite simple really. Question is can we make changes to help make that club healthier? And no I don't mean throw money at them till it hurts. I agreed with the FFC I liked its direction but my club still has to keep its volunteers happy and healthy, that is the real challenge. A quebec system of trails lodging food and gas all supported by the Government, comunitys and merchants with the OFSC and volunteers doing the work would be an awesome thing. I seems so hard to get any support from them yet they are the ones reaping the rewards with ever greater ones for the taking from tourism.

 

I'll shut up now and put on my Flame suit as I'm going to be blasted!

 

P.S. Wildman you and a few others on here make more sense then most! Myself I get to emotional! Now that I'm retired I tend to become way more laid back!

[Sasquatch777]

And, once again we start the whole val tag debate. You guarantee I get a trail within 100 km, then maybe we can talk. There are still way too many sled that honestly DO NOT ride on OFSC trails, nor have any desire to, for me to agree that it is fair. Same as paying 02's $15 to keep the Trent open. I boat on back woods lakes that hardly have a launch, why would I pay a user fee for the Trent ?

 

A val tag system could work, problem is it would have worked a lot better before Nipigon and others closed. I support a lot of things that I do not use but yes there are a lot of sleds that don't touch our trails. Sure puts an end to those that ride them now and don't pay though doesn't it.

 

My wheel barrow doesn't run on the roads yet I pay a tax for the tire on it to maintain them. Same as my tractors and boat! Heck the fuel I burn in them are taxed to support the roads yet they never see them. These are only some real crazy in you face taxes. Heck I'd pay 15 bucks for the trent if I could get my road tax back on the things I burn fuel or buy rubber for  that don't run on the roads. I'd come out ahead on that deal.

 

User pay only goes so far then its just not practical. Our government is based on a one for all all for one system. There is a lot to be said for all pay all use. Those in Nipigon might be more inclined to open the trails if they are paying for them anyway, creates a much larger volunteer base as well. Probably not but I can dream can't I?

[Wildman]

Accually I lived through the close the loops mentality. We kind of made up our own minds as to what we could reasonably maintain with what we had. The direction from the OFSC was close all but the A trail. We kept open some club trails and closed others that hurt us. Later we closed more as we could not maintain them and that hurt us some more. That was not the real struggle however, it was the loss of all the fisherman who used to support us long before the A Trail push. When permits where under a 100 bucks was the time to go to a Val tag system before the OFSC said that fisherman and trappers could use our trails. That created a rift and the fisherman blamed the OFSC for the high prices for permits and took it out on the clubs and the war began. So you wind up with a comunity of rebels that keeps the urban legends alive (OFSC stole the trails etc.) and thats how you get the non permit riders on the trails.

 

But we have made inroads and although we have non permit riders they are not as many as there used to be. Mostly because this country is hard on sleds, not many 15 year old sleds on the trail. Fisherman use old sleds trail riders don't around here. My 99 is in almost new condition as it was stored indoors and maintained properly and has reasonable miles on it (kids sleds girls). I rode with a 2000 sled that was on its second motor and that had been rebuild many times. It blew up on a 70 miles ride and was towed to back. 15 year old sleds on the trails are few and far between here. 90% of them have been beat to death. The rest are collecting dust in a garage or shed somewhere. Very few 2000 to 2003 sleds being run anymore. Heck I relegated my 2005 to standby status and picked up a two year old new left over 2011 which now has 6,500 miles on it.

 

So while there are sleds with no permits that ride our trials they are becoming less all the time. Now the Classic permit has got some of the riders to dust off the old sleds and ride them again, many has stopped riding to raise a family or for other finacial reasons. Now they are getting back into it. I have a buddy with a mint 2000 Mach, that has two little ones but two years from now with them getting older and starting school he might be convinced to ride again with a classic permit but money is tight for him and wifey holds the purse and might be convinced he is getting a bargin. You know women like bargins ( men do too)

 

I know getting a break on the backs of those buying a regular permit! Same as the Southern clubs supporting the Northern ones because we have less riders per mile. It sticks in the craw of the have clubs, that are struggling same as the have not clubs. I could point out what the OFSC pointed out to us, cut some trails, as many as is needed to break even. Problem is that clubs do not want to hear that and instead want to cut the ties with the have not clubs. As a have not club I'm at the mearsy of the haves and will continue to maintain what I can with what I have. That means club trails and loops are closed and only the A trail is maintained with the exception of one D trail that joins another comunity and club. From the looks of it that club is on its way out so two clubs may have to take it over to keep themselves conected, or not.

 

Heck we sold a clubhouse that was the most awesome place to congregate and bond but to costly to maintain, to move to a way less costly but sterile non awesome place with nowhere to congregate but we could aford it. Without the move we would have been bankrupt many years back. We did what was needed to survive. We don't pay any volunteers, our volunteers do not expect or want to be paid. Somehow a volunteer being paid make him a non volunteer as he is earning a wage is the thought. Again we can't afford to pay anyone! We break even and that is with every cost cutting measure we can think of.

 

I'd love to but as it is a 2,000km drive I don't think so. I don't even know if we are sending anyone. I will be down that way in July maybe but I don't think the AGM is in July.  I would love to meet many of you as the internet and the typed word does not show the true person. We just hammer at each other over things that we misinterprit or misunderstand.

 

In the end I agree each and every club must support their trails with what they have, when they stop doing that they are done. Quite simple really. Question is can we make changes to help make that club healthier? And no I don't mean throw money at them till it hurts. I agreed with the FFC I liked its direction but my club still has to keep its volunteers happy and healthy, that is the real challenge. A quebec system of trails lodging food and gas all supported by the Government, comunitys and merchants with the OFSC and volunteers doing the work would be an awesome thing. I seems so hard to get any support from them yet they are the ones reaping the rewards with ever greater ones for the taking from tourism.

 

I'll shut up now and put on my Flame suit as I'm going to be blasted!

 

P.S. Wildman you and a few others on here make more sense then most! Myself I get to emotional! Now that I'm retired I tend to become way more laid back!

The problem as I see it (running a business) is we have raped the system as much as possible and it is so fragile financially, no more can be taken from the clubs that give. I don't want to see clubs fail, any of them, but without revenue increasing, it is inevitable. We only have one way, we as a federation, can increase our revenue, and it is the exact excuse we have for lack of support. We are backed in a corner, ffc isn't perfect, but is the fairest system for the group as a whole, we have had.

[Bucking Pig]

A val tag system could work, problem is it would have worked a lot better before Nipigon and others closed. I support a lot of things that I do not use but yes there are a lot of sleds that don't touch our trails. Sure puts an end to those that ride them now and don't pay though doesn't it.

 

You are probably correct in that.

[skidooboy]

I would hope, if it could have been done earlier, it can be done now... with the expectation of the possibility of reinstating connectors, with added funds, and more interested people. with this influx, maybe the interest of a inter/intra province completey connected system could become a reality again. 

 

the only way to get the freeloaders out of the system is to MANDATE AND ENFORCE purchasing of permits. the only feesible way to do this is link the fees to all sleds.

 

again, if you read my post, i didnt state that everyone buys a permit at it's cost now, AND link it to the val tag. i stated... come up with a system, and tiered pricing, to add funds to the entire system. like our fishing licenses go to help boat launches, as well as restocking and enforcment.

 

It is not like the, "build it and they will come" wishfull thinking... like the system started. it is a fund it, build it SLOWLY, gain interest, and expand as warranted. Ski

[02Sled]

And, once again we start the whole val tag debate. You guarantee I get a trail within 100 km, then maybe we can talk. There are still way too many sled that honestly DO NOT ride on OFSC trails, nor have any desire to, for me to agree that it is fair. Same as paying 02's $15 to keep the Trent open. I boat on back woods lakes that hardly have a launch, why would I pay a user fee for the Trent ?

 

Sorry but I didn't say $15 to keep the Trent open. It would need to be far more encompassing. Things like public docking and launching on lakes in general other than the Trent. Basically waterway management. How come you aren't complaining about the $15 fee for your sled. It has nothing to do with riding OFSC trails?

 

We are still and alway will be in a socialist environment to some extent. My taxes pay for and will always pay for services etc. that I will never use. That's just the way it is. There is a road that seems to run a good distance off of 585 in a somewhat N/W direction on the east side of Lofquist Lake and dead ends. I strongly suspect that provincial tax dollars contributed to the construction and maintenance of that road and it is not just paid for by the people that use it. Just the way it is. I will never use it nor will almost everyone in this province.

'

[02Sled]

Accually I lived through the close the loops mentality. We kind of made up our own minds as to what we could reasonably maintain with what we had. The direction from the OFSC was close all but the A trail. We kept open some club trails and closed others that hurt us. Later we closed more as we could not maintain them and that hurt us some more. That was not the real struggle however, it was the loss of all the fisherman who used to support us long before the A Trail push. When permits where under a 100 bucks was the time to go to a Val tag system before the OFSC said that fisherman and trappers could use our trails. That created a rift and the fisherman blamed the OFSC for the high prices for permits and took it out on the clubs and the war began. So you wind up with a comunity of rebels that keeps the urban legends alive (OFSC stole the trails etc.) and thats how you get the non permit riders on the trails.

 

But we have made inroads and although we have non permit riders they are not as many as there used to be. Mostly because this country is hard on sleds, not many 15 year old sleds on the trail. Fisherman use old sleds trail riders don't around here. My 99 is in almost new condition as it was stored indoors and maintained properly and has reasonable miles on it (kids sleds girls). I rode with a 2000 sled that was on its second motor and that had been rebuild many times. It blew up on a 70 miles ride and was towed to back. 15 year old sleds on the trails are few and far between here. 90% of them have been beat to death. The rest are collecting dust in a garage or shed somewhere. Very few 2000 to 2003 sleds being run anymore. Heck I relegated my 2005 to standby status and picked up a two year old new left over 2011 which now has 6,500 miles on it.

 

So while there are sleds with no permits that ride our trials they are becoming less all the time. Now the Classic permit has got some of the riders to dust off the old sleds and ride them again, many has stopped riding to raise a family or for other finacial reasons. Now they are getting back into it. I have a buddy with a mint 2000 Mach, that has two little ones but two years from now with them getting older and starting school he might be convinced to ride again with a classic permit but money is tight for him and wifey holds the purse and might be convinced he is getting a bargin. You know women like bargins ( men do too)

 

I know getting a break on the backs of those buying a regular permit! Same as the Southern clubs supporting the Northern ones because we have less riders per mile. It sticks in the craw of the have clubs, that are struggling same as the have not clubs. I could point out what the OFSC pointed out to us, cut some trails, as many as is needed to break even. Problem is that clubs do not want to hear that and instead want to cut the ties with the have not clubs. As a have not club I'm at the mearsy of the haves and will continue to maintain what I can with what I have. That means club trails and loops are closed and only the A trail is maintained with the exception of one D trail that joins another comunity and club. From the looks of it that club is on its way out so two clubs may have to take it over to keep themselves conected, or not.

 

Heck we sold a clubhouse that was the most awesome place to congregate and bond but to costly to maintain, to move to a way less costly but sterile non awesome place with nowhere to congregate but we could aford it. Without the move we would have been bankrupt many years back. We did what was needed to survive. We don't pay any volunteers, our volunteers do not expect or want to be paid. Somehow a volunteer being paid make him a non volunteer as he is earning a wage is the thought. Again we can't afford to pay anyone! We break even and that is with every cost cutting measure we can think of.

 

I'd love to but as it is a 2,000km drive I don't think so. I don't even know if we are sending anyone. I will be down that way in July maybe but I don't think the AGM is in July.  I would love to meet many of you as the internet and the typed word does not show the true person. We just hammer at each other over things that we misinterprit or misunderstand.

 

In the end I agree each and every club must support their trails with what they have, when they stop doing that they are done. Quite simple really. Question is can we make changes to help make that club healthier? And no I don't mean throw money at them till it hurts. I agreed with the FFC I liked its direction but my club still has to keep its volunteers happy and healthy, that is the real challenge. A quebec system of trails lodging food and gas all supported by the Government, comunitys and merchants with the OFSC and volunteers doing the work would be an awesome thing. I seems so hard to get any support from them yet they are the ones reaping the rewards with ever greater ones for the taking from tourism.

 

I'll shut up now and put on my Flame suit as I'm going to be blasted!

 

P.S. Wildman you and a few others on here make more sense then most! Myself I get to emotional! Now that I'm retired I tend to become way more laid back!

 

No flames here... what you said makes perfect sense. I feel for all those that struggle as more clubs have been finding themselves struggling in recent years to make ends meet. Then they get the weekend warrior with the big paddle track that chews up the trail and complains to the volunteer that it isn't perfect at 4:30 Saturday afternoon. Somewhat discouraging for those that volunteer

[Bucking Pig]

Sorry but I didn't say $15 to keep the Trent open. It would need to be far more encompassing. Things like public docking and launching on lakes in general other than the Trent. Basically waterway management. How come you aren't complaining about the $15 fee for your sled. It has nothing to do with riding OFSC trails?

 

We are still and alway will be in a socialist environment to some extent. My taxes pay for and will always pay for services etc. that I will never use. That's just the way it is. There is a road that seems to run a good distance off of 585 in a somewhat N/W direction on the east side of Lofquist Lake and dead ends. I strongly suspect that provincial tax dollars contributed to the construction and maintenance of that road and it is not just paid for by the people that use it. Just the way it is. I will never use it nor will almost everyone in this province.

'

What $15 fee for my snowmobile are you referring to?   

I could just about write these posts for you 02, as you can probably write my side.  Anytime now someby'll come on and start calling names because I don't agree with this proposal.  I don't feel like getting sucked into this discussion.  Nobody who can do anything about it looks at this site anyway.  You are pretty much all sledders who use OFSC trails and cannot conceive of anyone snowmobiling in any other manner than the way you do .  MY final word on this (but likely not the last word, by any means) is that, I agree you likely have an enforcement problem for permits on many of your trails.  I do not agree that everyone who owns a unpermitted snowmobile is trespassing on these trails, and should therefor have to subsidize your leisure activities. 

For what it's worth Hwy 585 services 3 OPG Hydro sites, and is the only reason it's a Hwy.  I could argue that my taxes go to keeping Hwy 401 open, that I never use, but I don't think this line of reasoning is a valid argument.  We have a Provincial Hwy system that is run at a Provincial Scale.   There are many roads that neither of us will ever use.  Maybe your taxes go to the 401, and mine go to 585?  Of course that's absurd, all of our taxes go in one big pot and are spent whereever the need is.. But, really?  Do you really equate snowmobile trails to the Provincial Hwy system?  In the last go around of this topic somebody mentioined Parks as a reasonable comparison to the snowmobile trails, maybe we should stay there instead of Highways? 

Anyways, have at 'er.  I'm done with this topic.