More On The Snow

[Big Pete]

Some seem to be forgetting something.

The OFSC is the clubs, always has been, always will be.

The OFSC HO is the part that looks after going for the govt grants, tourism ontario, insurance, etc.

do you really think we would be sledding on groomed trails if each club had to get insurance for their trails, or went knocking on the govt door for a grant ???

some seem to think the each club is a franchise of the OFSC where a fee is paid to belong (kind of yes in a way but not)

The OFSC does not dictate to the clubs how they run their club.

one interesting fact about the OFSc and the permit thing with the province.

The arrangement is the ONLY one where we collect the $$ and keep all the $$, nothing goes to the provincial coffers.

If as you say the OFSC would stick to the insurance, govt grants, tourism etc I would be a lot more supportive. But under MOTS the OFSC (via the District) will dictate to the clubs how they run their clubs.

To your other point, do you really think that we would be riding on 30k of groomed trails if it was left up to the OFSC to negotiate LUPs, coordinate volunteers, sign trails, brush trails and everything that a club does. I think not.

And finally I am going to ask, if STP is so successful please post up your results and prove that your method is significantly more efficient than everyone else's. I want to see your all-in cost per Km of trail (Trail Expense/km of Trail) and your all in cost of grooming per hour (Groomer Exp+Fuel+Wages/hours groomed). Use last years data or 4 year average from the clubs Ops Reports if you like and we will compare to my club. The data I have seen so far is that there are no substantial savings/efficiencies to be had.

[bbakernbay]

Another issue that I haven't heard anything about is how we are going to resolve the issue of no Trail Permits being sold over the counter, online sales only starting this year.

This is a serious problem in several respects:

1. There are some people who cannot or will not use the Internet to purchase anything. They are concerned about security.

2. There are some people, particularly in the rural area, that don't have Internet or capability to use Internet.

3. Our Club has many Snowmobilers from the United States that are used to coming to their destination and purchasing their Trail Permits from a motel, dealer, etc. they are going to be more than pissed when they arrive and have no quick way to purchase their Trail Permit. Many of these make last minute decisions on when and where they are going depending on conditions at home or even in Ontario.

We were told that the OFSC is looking at alternatives to deal with this problem. Has anyone heard of the proposed solution.

We were also told it is illegal for anyone to purchase a Trail Permit on behalf of someone else as it is an official MTO vehicle permit.

[Big Pussy]

I took my son, my buddy and his son, (all with full season trail permits) to Bonfield on the family day, free pass weekend a few years ago.  I did this because he has his own small business and cannot get away for a long trailer trip any other time.  We needed the extra Monday to make it viable.  We rode to Matawa and back on the north/south loop on Saturday morning.  There were so many sleds out that weekend and the A trail was so rough in the afternoon that we could only crawl along over the moguls.  The experience was so bad that he has never gone back up with me.

 

If the free weekend just has to happen, it needs to be a different weekend other than the long weekend.  How many days do they need to see how to ride a sled?

 

BP

[bbakernbay]

District 11 has one paid administrative Manager. Some Clubs pay their Groomer Operators, most do not.

To move to the MOTS model like STP, our Labour costs are going to significantly increase.

I would be very interested to see the total Labour costs for District 12 - STP including their Groomer Operators, Groomer Coordinators and District staff who manage the entire operation.

[slomo]

I don't think that lack of marketing is the issue, you aren't going to get Abdul and the fam to take up snowmobiling. 

 

Actually had a doctor, ethnicity Korean, and three business men from the 'Persia' area (who wished to remain sled forum nameless - political strife) lined up last year for a 2 day jaunt. Might try again this year. Unfortunately, trails went for bad when trip was to go. You might not get the family, but you'll get the ones who want to get away from the family!

[SuperG]

I'm not sure who my "OFSC bureaucrat" might be, but I will ask........

 

Not totally disagreeing with you, in this District we have a couple clubs beating the social media drum (Facebook) for folks to come far and wide to experience our trails last winter, it worked wonderfully which I'm sure was great for the local businesses, but it meant that the locals (who buy their permits) could not enjoy the trails at all due to their poor condition from the traffic.  Safety and rampant trespassing was also a major issue.  We had to trailer out of the area to sled last winter.

 

I don't think that lack of marketing is the issue, you aren't going to get Abdul and the fam to take up snowmobiling.  This might work with other groups in the south of Ontario, but I think that snowmobiling is, by and large, a rural activity.  Look at other sports that depend on volunteers, they are having many of the same issues.  It is also a generational issue, this generation has been raised with different values and expectations, right or wrong these values and expectations do not include much giving of their time and effort, other than behind a keyboard or smartphone.  This is not limited to the snowmobiling community.  If this is going to change for the better within the snowmobile community, it has to come from the local club (as an example, 25 years ago if someone felt that the local club had a poor track record of communication, they would volunteer to change it, nowadays that person would come on a web forum and complain).  I'm not sure how some can expect the OFSC to reach out into everyone's community to solve that problem.  The point made about targeting cottagers I believe was spot-on.  I also agree that letting others (Tourism) spend their money to market us makes the most sense.

 

As for MOTS, I've stayed out of the discussion, but I would ask that voting delegates please take into account other areas besides their own when voting.  Just because STP/D12 has the permit sales/funds to pay all groomer operator, this is definitely not the case everywhere.  Asking a volunteer groomer operator to drive hours away and groom longer is not going to result in better trails, as you will lose that operator.  I am in favour of living within our means, and I never agreed with a $180 trail permit, it only made the whining worse.  I believe the permit should be much higher.  Not saying there aren't savings and efficiencies to be had (too many Districts), but a permit price stuck in the 1990's (and the expectation created by lowering it a few years ago) is at the core of the problem.

 

Yes for sure the local businesses Benefit from the increased traffic, but unfortunately doesn't do much for the club nor the ofsc as they loose revenue as not much go the next year to buy a sled and permit.

 

Yes definitely the permit price needs to go up! I think maybe 10-15$ but no more or else you run the chance of loosing permit buyers. As you know sledders will spend 15-20000 on a new sled fine but will gripe about the permit price.  I wish the province would just give the OFSC the val tag revenue already.

 

Yes I do agree to a point that FB is a good way to get out to an audience to post stuff about your club and area but you do only hit for the most part a portion of people that really are already in the sledding bug. Teaming up with other local tourism businesses and pages is better as it will get out to more people that arent already in the sport such as a cottaging association, township office etc. 

 

As for your district #6 bureaucrat should be   CHERYL REID.

[dweese]

Sounds like you have it all figured out.

I wouldn't say that, but it seems the OFSC themselves aren't interested.

I don't get your fixation with the OFSC having to be in the forefront in marketing and promoting sledding in Ontario.

Because they are the organization in charge of the overall system, with suggestions from the clubs and a little MTO oversight.

They control what money goes where, and the rules the clubs must follow. And most of all they are the face of the system. So does it not make logical sense for them to take the lead with it comes to marketing the system as well?

Letting Tourism Ontario drive the sled marketing, is like the Blue Jay's letting the City of Toronto look thier markenting.

[Yukon]

I wish the province would just give the OFSC the val tag revenue already.

Why do you think the Provincial government wants us to have a try our trails weekend?

[SuperG]

To get us to be as broke as they are....

[Spanky]

Yes for sure the local businesses Benefit from the increased traffic, but unfortunately doesn't do much for the club nor the ofsc as they loose revenue as not much go the next year to buy a sled and permit.

 

Yes definitely the permit price needs to go up! I think maybe 10-15$ but no more or else you run the chance of loosing permit buyers. As you know sledders will spend 15-20000 on a new sled fine but will gripe about the permit price.  I wish the province would just give the OFSC the val tag revenue already.

 

Yes I do agree to a point that FB is a good way to get out to an audience to post stuff about your club and area but you do only hit for the most part a portion of people that really are already in the sledding bug. Teaming up with other local tourism businesses and pages is better as it will get out to more people that arent already in the sport such as a cottaging association, township office etc. 

 

As for your district #6 bureaucrat should be   CHERYL REID.

 

The permit needs to be $250 - $300, whiners would hopefully be gone.  I am aware who the the District 6 GOVERNOR is, I wouldn't say that governors are bureaucrats though.  

 

I agree that val tag money should be coming back to the organized trail network.  I already pay for other people's good time (children, education, roads, etc). 

[Big Pete]

Another issue that I haven't heard anything about is how we are going to resolve the issue of no Trail Permits being sold over the counter, online sales only starting this year.

This is a serious problem in several respects:

1. There are some people who cannot or will not use the Internet to purchase anything. They are concerned about security.

2. There are some people, particularly in the rural area, that don't have Internet or capability to use Internet.

3. Our Club has many Snowmobilers from the United States that are used to coming to their destination and purchasing their Trail Permits from a motel, dealer, etc. they are going to be more than pissed when they arrive and have no quick way to purchase their Trail Permit. Many of these make last minute decisions on when and where they are going depending on conditions at home or even in Ontario.

We were told that the OFSC is looking at alternatives to deal with this problem. Has anyone heard of the proposed solution.

We were also told it is illegal for anyone to purchase a Trail Permit on behalf of someone else as it is an official MTO vehicle permit.

In addition to your American customers how about our own. At the D1 meeting a couple of weeks ago we were told that the OFSC had no operational on-line sales system at its disposal. We were told that there was a conflict/disagreement with they current provider which I read as we were being held hostage by the current provider. They were exploring alternatives but.... Still have not heard if the problem is resolved (and at what price). We have a district meeting on the 6th. Will post an update if there is one.

[Nutter]

Current main demographic of typical Ontario snowmobiler - white, 55 plus, balding, paunchy, poor health, (the guys are even worse) but able to afford sledding. Problem - getting older, less interested in the hastle, dying off. In order to survive, Ontario snowmobiling (represented by the OFSC according to mission statement) must attract new sledders. The non-traditional sledder needs to be targeted by a specific campaign. The other organizations i.e. Ontario Tourism are not doing this - specifically targeting a wanted group by identifying characteristics and gearing advertising in accordance...

 

This concept seems to be out of your cognitive reach - bombarding with unsubstantiated claims does not prove your point of view. As you have referred to it earlier, thinking the old gravy train gang is out to protect their own interests....while I'm on my DELL computer, keyboarding on a LOGITECH keyboard and watching the results on a SAMSUNG monitor...oops starting to look familiar to another gravy train character....

 

 

So Slomo you want to take more money off the trails to hire a PR firm to duplicate whats already being done by PR firms through Tourism Ontario on their dime ? 

 

 

Asian, Indian and European press groups have been taken out for day trips, and tourism Ontario Articles are republished in different languages and distributed by foreign tourism agencies.  You would know this if you had the least bit of interest of actually being concerned other then grinding out your one way opinions on here, or have simply just read that it was done in the Go Snow Mags (there was an article written about the neat experience of doing it by the person that took them out). Just because you yourself doesn't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening Slomo. 

 

As usual I will again bow out to the great Slomo who knows all, have it buddy. I'll keep doing what I do for the sport while you post your misinformed opinions on here. Cheers have a great season 

. 

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't say that, but it seems the OFSC themselves aren't interested.

Because they are the organization in charge of the overall system, with suggestions from the clubs and a little MTO oversight.

They control what money goes where, and the rules the clubs must follow. And most of all they are the face of the system. So does it not make logical sense for them to take the lead with it comes to marketing the system as well?

Letting Tourism Ontario drive the sled marketing, is like the Blue Jay's letting the City of Toronto look thier markenting.

 

 

 

The clubs are in charge of the overall system and money, the OFSC just the collective vehicle used for implementation and distribution and governing policies set by the clubs. 

 

Your example of the Blue Jays and the City of Toronto is weak. If the Blue Jays could have Tourism Ontario taking on the lion's share of their marketing and promotion and the lion's share of distribution of that material on their dime, you'd be on par. The Blue Jays would be tickled pink for a sweetheart deal like that, so would any other business or none profit org. 

[Nutter]

Current main demographic of typical Ontario snowmobiler - white, 55 plus, balding, paunchy, poor health, (the guys are even worse) but able to afford sledding. Problem - getting older, less interested in the hastle, dying off. In order to survive, Ontario snowmobiling (represented by the OFSC according to mission statement) must attract new sledders. The non-traditional sledder needs to be targeted by a specific campaign. The other organizations i.e. Ontario Tourism are not doing this - specifically targeting a wanted group by identifying characteristics and gearing advertising in accordance...

 

This concept seems to be out of your cognitive reach - bombarding with unsubstantiated claims does not prove your point of view. As you have referred to it earlier, thinking the old gravy train gang is out to protect their own interests....while I'm on my DELL computer, keyboarding on a LOGITECH keyboard and watching the results on a SAMSUNG monitor...oops starting to look familiar to another gravy train character....

 

 

BTW, taking people out snowmobiling from different ethnic groups has been going on for many years. I have been doing my part as shown below. Maybe your next snowmobile song and vid could be done in Cantonese or Punjabi rather than Country and Western ? 

 

 

[bbakernbay]

Why do you think the Provincial government wants us to have a try our trails weekend?

Paul

A good reason to cancel the Free Family Day Weekend Free Snowmobiling so as to wake up the Province and await their Val Tag $$$ to snowmobile trails and grooming.

I think it might be obvious to everyone why the plug is being pulled on Family Day Weekend Free Snowmobiling, I.e. Lack of serious funding to an industry that provides enormous tax revenues and benefits to the hospitality industry, particularly in northern areas where snowmobiling $$$ are crucial to their very survival.

Brian

[bbakernbay]

In addition to your American customers how about our own. At the D1 meeting a couple of weeks ago we were told that the OFSC had no operational on-line sales system at its disposal. We were told that there was a conflict/disagreement with they current provider which I read as we were being held hostage by the current provider. They were exploring alternatives but.... Still have not heard if the problem is resolved (and at what price). We have a district meeting on the 6th. Will post an update if there is one.

Thanks Big Pete

You are indeed correct, many Clubs say they need the capability to sell a Trail Permit locally for various reasons that we both stated.

Talk about trying to grow permit sales!!!

This online only will cost us sales instead.

We were told that they would seriously examine a feasible alternative.

Oh and by the way, I personally don't think Val Tag proposal is either fair nor is it politically viable.

[Panther340]

Someone may want to do the actual math on how much "val tag money" would actually occur and whether most of it would come from the same pockets as the whiners you identified as people that already think they pay too much for trail  passes . So then how much extra are you really getting from the other non OFSC riders if you want their val tags to be increased . Considering you can bet that a significant proportion of those non OFSC riders are riding older machines , (mine is 1998) there will be a a majority of those older equipment owners that say "screw it no more buying a tag for the few times I use the machine and the winters are getting shorter anyway". (I know  I won't and will just use machine on my farm)

 

So be careful on assuming how much money is actually there. Versus just increasing the trail pass and getting the money that way. (Or maybe getting from gas taxes instead because that would be much less provocative  way)   Also be careful on how much back lash from those non OFSC taxpayers that are appalled at the audacity of OFSC to think they represent all snowmachine owners..........THEY DON"T.          And if you think you have problems with freeloaders on the trails now , wait till you have government increase the val tag by 20 or 30 bucks and they hear it was all going to OFSC, I can hear the young guys now, saying....hey I paid for some of that trail, why do I need a pass too.

You are opening what might be a big can of worms, and OFSC will get a black eye for their efforts to have MORE of their sport put on the backs of non users (and flak  from Fishing OFAH or from trappers associations )

[Doogirl69]

Someone may want to do the actual math on how much "val tag money" would actually occur and whether most of it would come from the same pockets as the whiners you identified as people that already think they pay too much for trail  passes . So then how much extra are you really getting from the other non OFSC riders if you want their val tags to be increased . Considering you can bet that a significant proportion of those non OFSC riders are riding older machines , (mine is 1998) there will be a a majority of those older equipment owners that say "screw it no more buying a tag for the few times I use the machine and the winters are getting shorter anyway". (I know  I won't and will just use machine on my farm)

 

So be careful on assuming how much money is actually there. Versus just increasing the trail pass and getting the money that way. (Or maybe getting from gas taxes instead because that would be much less provocative  way)   Also be careful on how much back lash from those non OFSC taxpayers that are appalled at the audacity of OFSC to think they represent all snowmachine owners..........THEY DON"T.          And if you think you have problems with freeloaders on the trails now , wait till you have government increase the val tag by 20 or 30 bucks and they hear it was all going to OFSC, I can hear the young guys now, saying....hey I paid for some of that trail, why do I need a pass too.

You are opening what might be a big can of worms, and OFSC will get a black eye for their efforts to have MORE of their sport put on the backs of non users (and flak  from Fishing OFAH or from trappers associations )

 

OFSC needs $18M to operate. Divided by 150,000 registered sleds = a $120 Val Tag just like a car.

 

Ya people will whine "I don't ride OFSC trails" though. 

 

I don't use the TTC or ice skate anymore which I pay for. All MTO Val Tag and fuel tax goes to the general fund.

 

No permits to print.

 

No 3rd party to pay to sell online. 

 

Enforcement takes care of its self. Ride a sled off your property with no Val Tag you are not covered by your insurance. How many will take the chance? 

 

OPP has to have Zero Tolerance too for no Val Tag.

 

Just a Dumb Blond's .02.

[Spanky]

Someone may want to do the actual math on how much "val tag money" would actually occur and whether most of it would come from the same pockets as the whiners you identified as people that already think they pay too much for trail  passes . So then how much extra are you really getting from the other non OFSC riders if you want their val tags to be increased . Considering you can bet that a significant proportion of those non OFSC riders are riding older machines , (mine is 1998) there will be a a majority of those older equipment owners that say "screw it no more buying a tag for the few times I use the machine and the winters are getting shorter anyway". (I know  I won't and will just use machine on my farm)

 

So be careful on assuming how much money is actually there. Versus just increasing the trail pass and getting the money that way. (Or maybe getting from gas taxes instead because that would be much less provocative  way)   Also be careful on how much back lash from those non OFSC taxpayers that are appalled at the audacity of OFSC to think they represent all snowmachine owners..........THEY DON"T.          And if you think you have problems with freeloaders on the trails now , wait till you have government increase the val tag by 20 or 30 bucks and they hear it was all going to OFSC, I can hear the young guys now, saying....hey I paid for some of that trail, why do I need a pass too.

You are opening what might be a big can of worms, and OFSC will get a black eye for their efforts to have MORE of their sport put on the backs of non users (and flak  from Fishing OFAH or from trappers associations )

 

Aren't you the guy that doesn't even buy a trail pass?  Why are you even here, on a forum about organized snowmobiling?  The OFSC will get a black eye from you WHATEVER they do, so why does that matter?  There is already a classic permit made available for folks with older sleds but that isn't enough.  There are exemptions in place now for OFAH and trappers, so that's not a concern either.

 

Call it val tag, call it return on gas taxes, call it whatever you want, its time some of that money that is generated by organized snowmobiling was re-invested in the operations of organized snowmobiling (not just for the creation of touring loops).

[SuperG]

Aren't you the guy that doesn't even buy a trail pass?  Why are you even here, on a forum about organized snowmobiling?  The OFSC will get a black eye from you WHATEVER they do, so why does that matter?  There is already a classic permit made available for folks with older sleds but that isn't enough.  There are exemptions in place now for OFAH and trappers, so that's not a concern either.

 

Call it val tag, call it return on gas taxes, call it whatever you want, its time some of that money that is generated by organized snowmobiling was re-invested in the operations of organized snowmobiling (not just for the creation of touring loops).

Well said! X2!

[mczed38]

In addition to your American customers how about our own. At the D1 meeting a couple of weeks ago we were told that the OFSC had no operational on-line sales system at its disposal. We were told that there was a conflict/disagreement with they current provider which I read as we were being held hostage by the current provider. They were exploring alternatives but.... Still have not heard if the problem is resolved (and at what price). We have a district meeting on the 6th. Will post an update if there is one.

Umm how is this comment flying under the radar? "No operational on-line sales system at its disposal"...hello! This is massive news. If this is indeed fact, who is fighting this fire? What's happened? What's the contingency plan? Two weeks to AGM and this bomb is ticking. If our revenue collection system is offline then the rest of this thread is pointless. 

[Big Pete]

Umm how is this comment flying under the radar? "No operational on-line sales system at its disposal"...hello! This is massive news. If this is indeed fact, who is fighting this fire? What's happened? What's the contingency plan? Two weeks to AGM and this bomb is ticking. If our revenue collection system is offline then the rest of this thread is pointless.

Just to be clear, there is an option to go with the current vendor but we were led to believe that it would be very expensive. But quite frankly at this late date there is no other option in my opinion. No way on earth you could get a new supplier under contract, transfer all the profile data and have it all signed off by the MTO before Octiber 1st. I would also speculate that all the enhancements we were promised are not going to be delivered for this season.

[Big Pete]

I think you may have misunderstood.

The Online Trail Permit system is fully functional and will be the only method by which a Trail Permit can be purchased this season.

I think Big Pete was saying the OFSC tried to propose some form of method by which Trail Permits could be purchased at various outlets using the supplier's system but this was not feasible for whatever reasons.

Not having a system this season whereby Trail Permits could have been sold directly to a purchaser over a counter is going to cause problems with some of our customers.

Possibly there will be something announced at AGM in this regard but the online system is ready to go again.

Sorry Brian, there was no misunderstanding. Mike Clewer was quite clear that as of the date of the D-1 meeting the OFSC did not have an online system to sell permits at all. The implication was that they were basically being held for ransom by the current vendor and they were exploring other avenues. We have a D1 board meeting on Tuesday and hopefully our Gov can provide an update.

[Big Pete]

Sorry. Double post.

[dweese]

The clubs are in charge of the overall system and money, the OFSC just the collective vehicle used for implementation and distribution and governing policies set by the clubs.

Your example of the Blue Jays and the City of Toronto is weak. If the Blue Jays could have Tourism Ontario taking on the lion's share of their marketing and promotion and the lion's share of distribution of that material on their dime, you'd be on par. The Blue Jays would be tickled pink for a sweetheart deal like that, so would any other business or none profit org.

I'll agree to disagree with you on this subject.

OFSC needs $18M to operate. Divided by 150,000 registered sleds = a $120 Val Tag just like a car.

Ya people will whine "I don't ride OFSC trails" though.

I don't use the TTC or ice skate anymore which I pay for. All MTO Val Tag and fuel tax goes to the general fund.

No permits to print.

No 3rd party to pay to sell online.

Enforcement takes care of its self. Ride a sled off your property with no Val Tag you are not covered by your insurance. How many will take the chance?

OPP has to have Zero Tolerance too for no Val Tag.

Just a Dumb Blond's .02.

Works for me

[slomo]

Maybe your next snowmobile song and vid could be done in Cantonese or Punjabi rather than Country and Western ? 

 

 

 

 

The snowmobile song was written, recorded, and posted for free. Your suggestion sounds like a great project ! Do you think there might be some Ontario Tourism money in it? Hook me up with the funding and we'll get started!