More On The Snow

[Nutter]

The snowmobile song was written, recorded, and posted for free. Your suggestion sounds like a great project ! Do you think there might be some Ontario Tourism money in it? Hook me up with the funding and we'll get started!

 

 

100% there would be if they like what you have produced and they use it, you'd get the same as the rest of us that contribute freelance content to them. You'll get most your fuel covered for the ride used to create the content. But like everyone else contributing you have to gamble that they will use the content you provide. I don't get how you can't grasp this, we're volunteers with our clubs and or districts, and or OFSC, we don't do it for the money (and infact always end up more out of pocket doing these things) we do it because we want to give back and help support our sport. 

[bbakernbay]

Sorry Brian, there was no misunderstanding. Mike Clewer was quite clear that as of the date of the D-1 meeting the OFSC did not have an online system to sell permits at all. The implication was that they were basically being held for ransom by the current vendor and they were exploring other avenues. We have a D1 board meeting on Tuesday and hopefully our Gov can provide an update.

My misunderstanding in not reading Big Pete's post thoroughly.

Talk about having a gun to your head, your entire revenue stream has been outsourced and now the service provider has all the chips at their table and it is time to jack up the price to whatever they want with less than 30 days to go.

Hopefully this has been resolved by now, undoubtedly at a significant cost increase.

Surely someone can update us all on this situation.

[slomo]

we do it because we want to give back and help support our sport. 

I will take this opportunity to express sincerely, that no one has ever doubted your devotion to snowmobiling, your significant contributions made to the Port Perry club and to sledding in general.

[02Sled]

Aren't you the guy that doesn't even buy a trail pass?  Why are you even here, on a forum about organized snowmobiling?  The OFSC will get a black eye from you WHATEVER they do, so why does that matter?  There is already a classic permit made available for folks with older sleds but that isn't enough.  There are exemptions in place now for OFAH and trappers, so that's not a concern either.

 

Call it val tag, call it return on gas taxes, call it whatever you want, its time some of that money that is generated by organized snowmobiling was re-invested in the operations of organized snowmobiling (not just for the creation of touring loops).

 

The part of Ontario he is from, they require a val tag BUT the government feels sorry for these poor hard done by souls and it is free for their snowmobile. It's just a matter of it being registered. They also have a significantly reduced val tag for their pickup / car and are exempt from emissions testing even though the worst abominations of vehicles belching all kinds of pollution into the air that I have seen are in the northern portions of the province. Some of the clapped out rattle traps I have seen on the road in northern Ontario seem to have a blind eye turned to them although the minute they were driven say Parry Sound area or south they would be pulled off the road and the plates removed.

 

OFSC needs $18M to operate. Divided by 150,000 registered sleds = a $120 Val Tag just like a car.

 

Ya people will whine "I don't ride OFSC trails" though. 

 

I don't use the TTC or ice skate anymore which I pay for. All MTO Val Tag and fuel tax goes to the general fund.

 

No permits to print.

 

No 3rd party to pay to sell online. 

 

Enforcement takes care of its self. Ride a sled off your property with no Val Tag you are not covered by your insurance. How many will take the chance? 

 

OPP has to have Zero Tolerance too for no Val Tag.

 

Just a Dumb Blond's .02.

 

He'll tell you that you simply can't compare those other things we all pay for like ice rinks, pools, libraries etc. that we don't all use to snowmobiling.

[Nutter]

OFSC needs $18M to operate. Divided by 150,000 registered sleds = a $120 Val Tag just like a car.

 

Ya people will whine "I don't ride OFSC trails" though. 

 

I don't use the TTC or ice skate anymore which I pay for. All MTO Val Tag and fuel tax goes to the general fund.

 

No permits to print.

 

No 3rd party to pay to sell online. 

 

Enforcement takes care of its self. Ride a sled off your property with no Val Tag you are not covered by your insurance. How many will take the chance? 

 

OPP has to have Zero Tolerance too for no Val Tag.

 

Just a Dumb Blond's .02.

 

 

 

Good in theory, but I have to wonder if $18mil will cut it if we have 150,000 sleds legally eligible to ride on the trails ?  

[dweese]

Good in theory, but I have to wonder if $18mil will cut it if we have 150,000 sleds legally eligible to ride on the trails ?

For sure not likely... better question is since there are 150,000 registered sleds in Ontario, and 85,000 or so permits sold. How many of those 65,000 unpermited sleds are just free loading?

Would half be an actuate number? Sounds a little scary to think of 30,000+ unpermited sleds on the trails every year. Only way to truly find out would be to look at the registration database and compare locations of those sleds and thier age to the location of trails.

Even if 25% where freeloaders, that's still over 15,000 sleds at a lost of 2.7million to the system based on early bird pricing.

[Nutter]

For sure not likely... better question is since there are 150,000 registered sleds in Ontario, and 85,000 or so permits sold. How many of those 65,000 unpermited sleds are just free loading?

Would half be an actuate number? Sounds a little scary to think of 30,000+ unpermited sleds on the trails every year. Only way to truly find out would be to look at the registration database and compare locations of those sleds and thier age to the location of trails.

Even if 25% where freeloaders, that's still over 15,000 sleds at a lost of 2.7million to the system based on early bird pricing.

 

For as long as I can remember we've always been around the 60-70% mark for permits sold vs the amount of actively insured sleds in Ontario, while a lot people think/thought otherwise, I actually always thought was a pretty good number considering all the factors. Now in saying that .... 

 

While I sternly feel every sled on the trail should have a permit no matter how much they are on the trail 1 km or 100 km be it a trapper, native, fishermen, utility companies ... ect.   A question I keep asking myself is how much are freeloaders actually costing us in trail wear and tear ?   IMO this is a question that's really tough to quantify one that can probably never be answered.  

 

 

Nothing chafes my chaps more than spending 12-15 hours of my night in the groomer doing my best to lay a perfect ribbon, only to have even so much as one un permitted asshat pass me several times through the night tearing the crap out of what I have already groomed. I already have to deal with the permitted ones who feel self entitled enough to do the same to a freshly groomed trail, the unpermitted ones just make it all the worse. 

[02Sled]

Lore or fact I don't know however I did hear of a groomer operator who also did trail patrol out on the groomer coming across a good sized group of unpermitted sleds. He apparently blocked the trail with the groomer and the drag, the only route home for the sledders and stayed there until they ponied up the money for permits that as a good trail patrol he carried with him when grooming as well.

Really need some significant enforcement and penalties for the free loaders.

[dweese]

While I sternly feel every sled on the trail should have a permit no matter how much they are on the trail 1 km or 100 km be it a trapper, native, fishermen, utility companies ... ect. A question I keep asking myself is how much are freeloaders actually costing us in trail wear and tear ? IMO this is a question that's really tough to quantify one that can probably never be answered.

Your right, we'll never know. The system is too vast and too limited patrolled to ever find out.

If we knew the number of fines that were laid last year, and the number of trail side checks. You could come up with an intelligent estimation.

Even if your right at 70% permit compliance. At 150,000 sleds. That's still 45,000 register sleds without permits. So if we say 25% of those are freeloaders, that's still $180,000 to $260,000 in lost permit sales.

[Viperules700]

Your right, we'll never know. The system is too vast and too limited patrolled to ever find out.

If we knew the number of fines that were laid

last year, and the number of trail side checks.

You could come up with an intelligent estimation.

Even if your right at 70% permit compliance. At 150,000 sleds. That's still 45,000 register sleds without permits. So if we say 25% of those are freeloaders, that's still $180,000 to $260,000 in

lost permit sales.

Don't forget lots of sledders are busy people like yourself. Some only buy Quebec or MI permits and don't ride here. Others have a cottage on crown Land and only ride around that part a few times a year. Free weekend I run into people that strictly ride hailburton forest and only venture on ofsc trails during free weekend.

[FreezerBurnt]

You guys are forgetting ATVs who are using the trails in greater numbers in winter on groomed trails

 

What is the fine for that

 

Funny how permit enforcement compliance numbers are well above 95-97% when regards to sleds

 

There should be a gas tax revenue scheme or less tax when filling a sled like in many states and a couple provinces

 

Out in Kimberley and Revelstoke they have pumps for off road vehicles and some they remove the tax when you go pay, that is something I noticed this past summer

[Greggie]

Your right, we'll never know. The system is too vast and too limited patrolled to ever find out.

If we knew the number of fines that were laid last year, and the number of trail side checks. You could come up with an intelligent estimation.

Even if your right at 70% permit compliance. At 150,000 sleds. That's still 45,000 register sleds without permits. So if we say 25% of those are freeloaders, that's still $180,000 to $260,000 in lost permit sales.

Hmm, 22,500 permits a $180 is on my calculator $4,050,000........

[Viperules700]

You guys are forgetting ATVs who are using the trails in greater numbers in winter on groomed trails

 

What is the fine for that

 

Funny how permit enforcement compliance numbers are well above 95-97% when regards to sleds

 

There should be a gas tax revenue scheme or less tax when filling a sled like in many states and a couple provinces

 

Out in Kimberley and Revelstoke they have pumps for off road vehicles and some they remove the tax when you go pay, that is something I noticed this past summer

Do they remove the by road tax and carbon tax from the fuel? I know farmers in bc and companies that use gas for off road equipment can get died gas now.

[FreezerBurnt]

Do they remove the by road tax and carbon tax from the fuel? I know farmers in bc and companies that use gas for off road equipment can get died gas now.

 

http://www.drivesmartbc.ca/miscellaneous/coloured-fuel

[Bigfish]

you used to be able to forward gas receipts for boats to the Ontario government for road tax ($0.147 per/litre), and get a rebate.

But that has not been in place for years.

[Panther340]

You folks are an absolute hoot the way you throw around numbers and assumptions........... major percentage of 45,000 freeloaders you guess at....and paint with a wide brush tarnishing the north as a bunch of yahoos driving beat up cars and trucks . If you want to be taken serious at least use modicum of professionalism. WOW arrogance runs rampant . Do you really think you can guess how many freeloaders there are by how close an insured machine lives to a trail. .....and then assume that is how much money you are missing !  Must be the same way you do your marketing math Dweese and demographic assumptions. Do you know how many machines farmers have, or natives have, or forestry companies, trappers or fishermen have, or even cottagers have , that have no interest in running from one town to the next on 12 ft wide trails ? Now look closely at your trail check statistics and ask your self how over 90 % compliance reflects versus your silly assumptions. Seems to me someone wants to blame a boogeyman instead of pointing the fingers inward at a system that grew to big and too fast and with red tape and much liability to deal with. But turning your blame and costs towards the innocent machine owners , that are your one true demographic closest to being able to move in to your sports seems like marketing stupidity....but I warned ya

[Panther340]

oh and a post script to the person that said I didn't belong on this site as if it is only for OFSC members , you may want to look at the "About Us" tab on this Website , that is how I found this location, but if the web owners only want OFSC members and no "outside voices" they can PM me please.

[dweese]

You folks are an absolute hoot the way you throw around numbers and assumptions........... major percentage of 45,000 freeloaders you guess at....and paint with a wide brush tarnishing the north as a bunch of yahoos driving beat up cars and trucks . If you want to be taken serious at least use modicum of professionalism. WOW arrogance runs rampant . Do you really think you can guess how many freeloaders there are by how close an insured machine lives to a trail. .....and then assume that is how much money you are missing ! Must be the same way you do your marketing math Dweese and demographic assumptions. Do you know how many machines farmers have, or natives have, or forestry companies, trappers or fishermen have, or even cottagers have , that have no interest in running from one town to the next on 12 ft wide trails ? Now look closely at your trail check statistics and ask your self how over 90 % compliance reflects versus your silly assumptions. Seems to me someone wants to blame a boogeyman instead of pointing the fingers inward at a system that grew to big and too fast and with red tape and much liability to deal with. But turning your blame and costs towards the innocent machine owners , that are your one true demographic closest to being able to move in to your sports seems like marketing stupidity....but I warned ya

Intresting math... I clearly remember saying 25% of that 45,000 could be free loading. That's nowhere near a major percentage... Good old Panther just likes to go on the personal attacks well crying how much the south pillages the tax paying pockets of the north.

And your self-centered everyone hates the north is really getting tiring. Last time I looked at map there isn't a North and South Ontario. Your hate for the 'south' isn't our fault. Stop voting NDP and maybe the government will screw you the same way everyone else gets it.

I do agree with your statement about the system needing to look at itself first. The need to keep up the largest system in the world status is skmething they need to give up on. It's time to scale back and take a hard look at what trails are really needed and what ones we can do with out. Simply look at Eastern Ontario around the Cornwall area. There are hundreds of kilometers of trail that al go the same way. Some are even on the same feild just at opposite sides. Why are we spending the money and time on things like this?

[Nutter]

Intresting math... I clearly remember saying 25% of that 45,000 could be free loading. That's nowhere near a major percentage... Good old Panther just likes to go on the personal attacks well crying how much the south pillages the tax paying pockets of the north.

And your self-centered everyone hates the north is really getting tiring. Last time I looked at map there isn't a North and South Ontario. Your hate for the 'south' isn't our fault. Stop voting NDP and maybe the government will screw you the same way everyone else gets it.

I do agree with your statement about the system needing to look at itself first. The need to keep up the largest system in the world status is skmething they need to give up on. It's time to scale back and take a hard look at what trails are really needed and what ones we can do with out. Simply look at Eastern Ontario around the Cornwall area. There are hundreds of kilometers of trail that al go the same way. Some are even on the same feild just at opposite sides. Why are we spending the money and time on things like this?

 

 

 

Because the local volunteers that build and and maintain them and local permit buyers want them there. Is it really a bad thing if local permit sales can and does support all those trails  ?

[02Sled]

Because the local volunteers that build and and maintain them and local permit buyers want them there. Is it really a bad thing if local permit sales can and does support all those trails  ?

unfortunately some people seem to believe that although those trails see a lot of use by a lot of riders and are in close proximity to one another should see some of those trails shut down in favour of trails that see very little use in other areas.

It is actually a concept contrary to buy where you ride.

[dweese]

Because the local volunteers that build and and maintain them and local permit buyers want them there. Is it really a bad thing if local permit sales can and does support all those trails ?

No its not a bad thing... however what about the areas where permit sales can't support even a limited trail structure do we force them to close? No we share the money throughout the system.

But what do we do as that money needs to be stretched farther, because if rising costs for fuel, equipment repairs and insurance? Do we continue to push permit prices up, or do we look at scaling back the system where we can?

It's called a long term outlook Nutter, you can't disagree with me. That the system is experiencing rising cost to operating. And at some point someone is going to have to make the hard call.

If you follow this board at all, you know there is always a call to buy your permit through one of the smaller clubs, or a club is at risk of shutting it's doors. We lost a whole district a few years back. For many reasons yes, but not having enought money to operate, does nothing to keep people volunteering to run things. Not all clubs enjoy the high revenue yours does.

[bbakernbay]

The revenue comes to a Club in 5 ways.

1. Payment for grooming hours.

2. Payment per kilometre of trail.

3. Fundraising.

4. Transfers from District for special needs.

5. Project or other grants such as TDF.

Now it really doesn't matter how many Trail Permits a Club sells, the revenue goes to the District and is disbursed based upon an Agreement by the Clubs as to how the money flows back to Clubs.

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

No its not a bad thing... however what about the areas where permit sales can't support even a limited trail structure do we force them to close? No we share the money throughout the system.

But what do we do as that money needs to be stretched farther, because if rising costs for fuel, equipment repairs and insurance? Do we continue to push permit prices up, or do we look at scaling back the system where we can?

It's called a long term outlook Nutter, you can't disagree with me. That the system is experiencing rising cost to operating. And at some point someone is going to have to make the hard call.

If you follow this board at all, you know there is always a call to buy your permit through one of the smaller clubs, or a club is at risk of shutting it's doors. We lost a whole district a few years back. For many reasons yes, but not having enought money to operate, does nothing to keep people volunteering to run things. Not all clubs enjoy the high revenue yours does.

Not sure where you are getting "do we continue to push permit prices up" from. Last time I checked they were down to $180.00 if you bought in the timeframe.

They do need to increase just like your license sticker for the Dart has.

[02Sled]

Not sure where you are getting "do we continue to push permit prices up" from. Last time I checked they were down to $180.00 if you bought in the timeframe.

They do need to increase just like your license sticker for the Dart has.

No doubt in my mind that there is a great value in the annual trail permit at $180+ and more. But there is a perceived value and a psychological factor that comes into play. Same reason in a store you will see something for $199.99 rather than $200.0.

It seems that many people have this psychological perception of a perceived value not exceeding $200.00 for the trail permit. The minute it exceeds that threshold they have a problem. They are not looking at it analytically or rationally. It is that psychological / emotional value.

I have a friend who has this psychological sense that he shouldn't have to pay more than $10 for a steak so rarely eats steak anymore. Not because he can't afford it but the perceived value. Same as the guy with a $150,000 boat who cheaps out at buying a quality marine polish for $30.00

[Nutter]

No its not a bad thing... however what about the areas where permit sales can't support even a limited trail structure do we force them to close? No we share the money throughout the system.

But what do we do as that money needs to be stretched farther, because if rising costs for fuel, equipment repairs and insurance? Do we continue to push permit prices up, or do we look at scaling back the system where we can?

It's called a long term outlook Nutter, you can't disagree with me. That the system is experiencing rising cost to operating. And at some point someone is going to have to make the hard call.

If you follow this board at all, you know there is always a call to buy your permit through one of the smaller clubs, or a club is at risk of shutting it's doors. We lost a whole district a few years back. For many reasons yes, but not having enought money to operate, does nothing to keep people volunteering to run things. Not all clubs enjoy the high revenue yours does.

 

 

Take away local trails and increase traffic on what's left and you will lose permit sales, not everyone can afford the time or money to trailer to these remote places, however they do want smooth trails and variety. The majority that do trailer don't trailer more then 2-4 hours. Take away more permit sales there won't be enough money to support either area. 

 

 

I'm that guy that no one wants to hear my opinion about buying from smaller clubs just so they can survive. But I'll say it again anyways .......

 

You can throw 100's of thousands at an area and with little interest in anyone volunteering it basically does nothing but get wasted, which we have experienced in the past in a few areas throughout the province. Especially when the local economic forces have caused closure of local services, like fuel, food and lodging. Sometimes an area has to go without for a while so people realize what they've lost, and hopefully those interested bring it back so they have it again. Which we're seeing happen right now in former D-16 and in 13 and 14.

 

 It's easy to say just hire someone to take care of it, however we've seen that without local interest and passion in volunteering and ridership trails can't be maintained to standards needed, and not all local services can survive on tourism dollars only, they need some amount of day to day income year round to keep the doors open.