Framework for Change -Progress or Knee-jerk?

[Viperules700]

Classic..I agree there are clubs with bulleyes on there back with there bank accounts BUT what about the clubs that have may there $$$$ thru FUND raising...IS that $$$ the OFSC's

also???.....My club and yes I am the Pres operates on 2500 dollars a year with NO

expenses...what I mean by no expenses signage

and grooming....all other expenses

landower's,crop damage trail maintence etc

comes out of that 2500 dollars when that runs

drie where does the coin come from OUR FUND

riising...the OFSC needs to be very careful with

some of the well run organations within there

umbrella...some are ready to say #%$# this we

are done.the peeps that bitch about the price

need to step back and have a very hard look in

the mirror...pay or get the #%$# out

period....unfortuneately we have listen to them

for far to long and look what it has

done....everything is going UP like it or lump

it...Next few yrs will be interesting.

I know several clubs with two bank accounts. They keep the club money from permits in one account and use that only for trail related expenses as Lep said. Since ofsc now states trail money can't be used to find club houses. Some clubs have a second bank account that is used, since they sell club memberships, have food and drink sales and fundraising nights such as wings, poker runs etec, to cover club house related expenses. After all it costs money to have a decent club house and drink and food sales. Without some sort of fundraising most clubs wouldn't have a home to have meetings and therefore, would cease to exist.

[Classic]

I know several clubs with two bank accounts. They keep the club money from permits in one account and use that only for trail related expenses as Lep said. Since ofsc now states trail money can't be used to find club houses. Some clubs have a second bank account that is used, since they sell club memberships, have food and drink sales and fundraising nights such as wings, poker runs etec, to cover club house related expenses. After all it costs money to have a decent club house and drink and food sales. Without some sort of fundraising most clubs wouldn't have a home to have meetings and therefore, would cease to exist.

I agree. If you want to have a clubhouse thats well and good, but the MTO not the OFSC, has made the decision that permit dollars cannot be used for that. If a club does a good job of fundraising thats what it should be used for.

[TRICKPaint]

By what % are permit purchases down from 5, 10, and 15 yeares ago?... It would be interesting to see those results?

[02Sled]

again, your reading comprehension is a bit skewed. does it say that i endorse freeloading? DOES IT? the cliff note version is, WHAT WORKS IN HIGH POPULOUS AREAS, MAY NOT WORK SO WELL IN ANOTHER LESS POPULATED.   NO MORE AND NO LESS. STOP TREATING ME LIKE YOU ARE BETTER THAN I.

 

in your above tirade about what people will spend, people dont spend those figures every season. most people keep sleds for 5-10 years, most trailers longer than that. you're bending figures to fit your "I'm right, and you're wrong agenda" AGAIN.

 

but, while you are on the subject, you made my point. PERCIEVED VALUE. the sled, trailer and clothes are a tangible value to an average consumer. not buying a permit, and riding where there is no cost to them, to save 2-400 (think married couples) could give a couple another trip or two for their "limited" hobby. PERCIEVED VALUE IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.  if you cant get a percieved value from the cost of an item, you may not buy it again.

 

i am really getting tired of you, and your holier than thou attitude. and truely to the observer, THAT IS HOW YOU COME ACCROSS. Ski

I'm tired of your attitude as well. That northern sense of entitelment you seem to express. You want to ride you pay. You don't want to pay the sad and unfortunate result is the closure of trails. Not something I want to see but the reality.

[02Sled]

02 sled...ever policed a small community...what Ski says is so true. And I would hope we can continue to respect each others opinion as they are all important..This issue is important! The idea of a roving enforcement team makes sense but guess what...news travels fast is small town Ontario. As I said, no a simple solution, go pound freeloaders in S.O. but I think N.O. needs a bit different approach.

And I don't have a solution..

Faceman... you are so right. There isn't a silver bullet that will resolve the woes. You will never ever make everyone happy. There will always be someone who will not be happy with the direction things go. All you can hope to do is please the vast majority of your customer base. The very nature of the OFSC is socialism where everyone pays in and money is shared around from some of the have's to the have nots'

[Viperules700]

By what % are permit purchases down from 5, 10, and 15 yeares ago?... It would be interesting to see those results?

I would say about 35 percent down From 3 years ago. Remember recession hit Ontario in 2009 too and we have had low snow years and manufactures that wouldn't adjust sled pricing for our high dollar. As a result the whole industry took a hit here in Ontario. Many deals have closed over the last several years. Bottom line is sled business is tough here today, especially in southern Ontario, where most of the population lives.

[UsedtoSkidoo]

These threads hurt my brain!

[Viperules700]

These threads hurt my brain!

It's too hot for brain freeze!

[TRICKPaint]

I would say about 35 percent down From 3 years ago. Remember recession hit Ontario in 2009 too and we have had low snow years and manufactures that wouldn't adjust sled pricing for our high dollar. As a result the whole industry took a hit here in Ontario. Many deals have closed over the last several years. Bottom line is sled business is tough here today, especially in southern Ontario, where most of the population lives.

 You are right, there are sure more variables than just  the permit costs. I guess you just have to look at all of those things seperately and come up with a plan that benifits everyone. It would be nice if it was that easy:)... I know there's much more to it than just what I see as a rider, but I think you need input from riders both Canadian and U.S.

[Greggie]

The next couple of years will bring the truth on the table. I compare the situation of snowmobiling with a person who has cancer. If we do nothing, we will be dead fast done. If we get medication, we will survive longer but we still die. If we get an operation and cut the cancer away, we have the best change to survive. Not all districts are in problems but or sure some are. Yes we need to cut trails in the areas where the clubs are in trouble and we need to save money in whole Ontario. If we change the AGM to one day, we will save about 30%. Another saving.

Enough for this reply.

Thanks,

Greg

[UsedtoSkidoo]

I'm of the mindset that the business model doesn't work. Once all of the regulations, MTO, insurance, and liabilities got crazy, I think we needed to change.

 

Small club, big organisation doesn't seem to be working. I once had someone tell me that "if the hole your in is big enough, stop digging!"

 

I think a radical change with a complete and proper provincial organisation should be looked at. JMHO

[Lep]

The next couple of years will bring the truth on the table. I compare the situation of snowmobiling with a person who has cancer. If we do nothing, we will be dead fast done. If we get medication, we will survive longer but we still die. If we get an operation and cut the cancer away, we have the best change to survive. Not all districts are in problems but or sure some are. Yes we need to cut trails in the areas where the clubs are in trouble and we need to save money in whole Ontario. If we change the AGM to one day, we will save about 30%. Another saving.

Enough for this reply.

Thanks,

Greg

I agree Greg but why didnt the OFSC see this coming.....there are alot of peeps that did and got laughed at...some of those peeps will never pound a stake or hang a sign again with the way spending etc was going....some thought $$$ was growing on trees when the hand outs happened...now what belts are being tighten and how much $$$ has be pissed away with bandage and poor desicions...only way it may pull together is a provincal out look BUT if clubs and districts dont get on the same page real soon and forget about there own backyard and gave and take a little we are doomed to fail.

[Mossy]

Frame work for change is not about raising prices its about lowering them which we can't afford. Because of a drop in club revenue these past years clubs need to be a lot smarter in how the budget their money. There are still too many clubs sitting with a big bank accounts and too many so called volunteers getting paid under the table. I'm betting there are clubs out there with more than one account that is never shown on their ops reports.

On the bold. You are not thinking the same as me. It's not about the income as much as the outcome. If you can't bring more money in then you can't spend as much. There are ways to save instead of ways to spend!

 Does every other province have these issues?

I'm of the mindset that the business model doesn't work. Once all of the regulations, MTO, insurance, and liabilities got crazy, I think we needed to change.

 

Small club, big organisation doesn't seem to be working. I once had someone tell me that "if the hole your in is big enough, stop digging!"

 

I think a radical change with a complete and proper provincial organisation should be looked at. JMHO

 

I completely agree UTS!

[02Sled]

I agree Greg but why didnt the OFSC see this coming.....there are alot of peeps that did and got laughed at...some of those peeps will never pound a stake or hang a sign again with the way spending etc was going....some thought $$$ was growing on trees when the hand outs happened...now what belts are being tighten and how much $$$ has be pissed away with bandage and poor desicions...only way it may pull together is a provincal out look BUT if clubs and districts dont get on the same page real soon and forget about there own backyard and gave and take a little we are doomed to fail.

Great perspective. I think some of the challenges that we face are a significant number of clubs don't look at the needs of the OFSC as a collective group. They are focussed on their club needs and their needs alone. They need to ralign the perspective. Anyone who is a Trekkie may remember Spock said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Put the egos aside and become creative for the communal good.

 

The current situation we face I believe was recognized a while ago however our model to address situations is also broken. Business long ago realized that they need to be AGILE and adapt to changing market environments and customer/user needs. We move too slow. We see a need or opportunity this past winter 2012/2013. We convince our club exec to move it forward to District then if we are lucky it gets discussed at the AGM fall 2013. Depending on the nature of what is brought forward, a need to be fulfilled or a resolution to a problem, it may drive investigation to take place during the coming year and report back to the next AGM with recommendations in fall 2014. Vote in fall 2014 and if you are lucky it gets implemented for the 2014/2015 season. Too slow. The factors that prompted the situation may well have changed in two years.

[skidooboy]

The next couple of years will bring the truth on the table. I compare the situation of snowmobiling with a person who has cancer. If we do nothing, we will be dead fast done. If we get medication, we will survive longer but we still die. If we get an operation and cut the cancer away, we have the best change to survive. Not all districts are in problems but or sure some are. Yes we need to cut trails in the areas where the clubs are in trouble and we need to save money in whole Ontario. If we change the AGM to one day, we will save about 30%. Another saving.

Enough for this reply.

Thanks,

Greg

 

yes greg, the next few years will be a critical turning point in organized sledding in ontario especially considering the linked province wide system is in SERIOUS JEOPARDY.

 

"cutting the cancer out" may help the host for a time but, sooner or later it will catch up with the entity as a whole.

 

turning your back to clubs and districts, will only lead to further failures down the road.

 

the ofsc was designed to group ALL ONTARIOS SNOWMOBILE CLUBS (not just the ones that can afford it), to give them a voice, and an orginization of like minded individuals with a goal of A SINGLE INTERCONNECTED PROVINCE WIDE TRAIL SYSTEM FOR LOCALS, AND TOURISTS ALIKE.

 

how many clubs could stand on their own and survive without district/matrix help? how long will it be before only highly populated areas have linked trails? then answer.... could they keep up with the demand of all of the snowmobilers flocking to this small, groomed area? 

 

there are pitfalls to clubs and districts folding. just because your club might be doing well now, doesnt mean it will, if more areas collapse. it will move more and more sledders into smaller and smaller areas. creating more grooming and trail maintainence, enforcement problems, not to mention budget problems.

 

if the ofsc were to fold (thinking out loud), could those surviving clubs keep up with the grooming demands, new equipment and maintainence costs for current equipment, new legislation, mto permits, demands, inspections, costs of building and maintaining trails, easements, bridges water crossings ect... and liability insurance payments???????

 

that is the big picture, people. 

 

do i have the solutions or answers? No, i am just one man looking in from the outside. but, i can tell you those saying, "if areas cant keep up, axe them...." wait till it is your area that is on the chopping block. EVERY CLUBS TIME IS COMMING, with that type of thinking. it will just be a matter of time. 

 

i know people dont like what i have to say, some dont like me as a person because, they think i have a sense of "entitlement". in reality, i have no dog in this fight, if the trails and clubs fail tomorrow, i'll have ALOT MORE PLACES TO RIDE, than the average sledder.

 

my goal here is to show you if one area can fail, they all can fail. turning our backs on these regions, will do nothing in the future when your area needs help. we are in a brother and sisterhood of snow travlers, we should try to work together to keep, maintain and expand when available, the system we have all worked so hard to make a reality.  tighten the budget belts, fight with govt for relaxed legislation, and funding help, and prevent the loss of any more linked TOP trails before it is too late.

 

we are truely at a tipping point, and yes this WHOLE SYSTEM could come crashing down. if you think it cant....

 

Ski

[Sasquatch777]

I'm tired of your attitude as well. That northern sense of entitelment you seem to express. You want to ride you pay. You don't want to pay the sad and unfortunate result is the closure of trails. Not something I want to see but the reality.

 

Well maybe the North of the US! But what is this Northern sense of entitlment you speak of? Kind of seems like you think poorly of the North and of course hold the South in a higher regard!

[Sasquatch777]

Anyone who is a Trekkie may remember Spock said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Put the egos aside and become creative for the communal good.

 

 

I so hate that quote. Nothing is further from reality. Our whole society is ruled by the needs of the few! Sacrificing the few for the many went out the window long long ago. Time to start thinking that the few are part of the many.

 

A movie quote that is about sacrificing ones self to save everyone else ( a selfless act of heroism) does not mean tossing a few of the less worthy under the tires of the bus to slow it down so you and your buddies can jump to safety (an act of cowardess) ! Everyone gets that quote wrong! Now if you and your buddies jumped under the tires to slow the bus down so the others could jump to safety then the quote fits!

[Lep]

Well maybe the North of the US! But what is this Northern sense of entitlment you speak of? Kind of seems like you think poorly of the North and of course hold the South in a higher regard!

77 thats where the problem lies...some thiink central is north  and they dont gave 2cents about NB/Sud north....as long as the ribbon is layed out for them every weekend they run to the cottage(camp).with the way mother nature is treating us maybe if they took of the sunglasses, maybe they could see the light and where mother nature has still been having pretty good winters,....last yr has been 2yrs back to back rain in cochrane in Jan....all i read on most forums evryone bitching about no mar break riding....well I spent Mar break riding with the family where UP Nord...warden and the girls had a blast.....yr before same crap, mar break kids and warden had a blast, will admit it was a so so yrs Up Nord also, but I brought the bikes also.

[Sasquatch777]

In fact let me add a few examples of sacrifice of a few for the many.

 

The Police Officers who put their lives on the line everyday so the rest of us are safe is an example or the few who sacrifice for the many. The firefighters come to mind as do the military all who sacrifice for the good of the many.

 

The volunteers who sacrifice many hours of their time to put the trails in amd maintain them are doing so for the good of the many.

 

These all fit the above movie quote. Closing northern clubs to save your selves is not self sacrifice. Its at best self preservation don't try to desguise it as something nobel!

[zoso]

dropping the permit price is out of the question...we need to get insurance cost down or close trails...we can't give up & need to accept a new direction with new ideas...something has to change...happy summer boys,only 6 months to the snow flies

Insurance is about 35 bucks per sled. I understand you keep hearing how insurance is killing us, but that is a lie.

[AkronOrange]

The current methods have almost killed the ability to tour all of Ontario.  Selfish clubs in the south have manipulated the existing funding structure to benefit only themselves without any regard for the longevity of the sport.  The south has crowded trails of weekend warriors and marginal snow cover.   When it's gone all together, we all lose.  It shouldn't be about who is buying permits and where they're buying them; it should be about the preservation of the sport.  There is always snow in the north.  How do we get customer there?   Northern Ontario has the greatest trails in the world, no where else can you find a snowmobiling experience like there is still available in Northern Ontario.

 

The current funding structure should be re-evaluated.  What once worked might not today. Everything needs to be re-evaluated to keep up with unpredicted change.

[Greggie]

The current methods have almost killed the ability to tour all of Ontario. Selfish clubs in the south have manipulated the existing funding structure to benefit only themselves without any regard for the longevity of the sport. The south has crowded trails of weekend warriors and marginal snow cover. When it's gone all together, we all lose. It shouldn't be about who is buying permits and where they're buying them; it should be about the preservation of the sport. There is always snow in the north. How do we get customer there? Northern Ontario has the greatest trails in the world, no where else can you find a snowmobiling experience like there is still available in Northern Ontario.

The current funding structure should be re-evaluated. What once worked might not today. Everything needs to be re-evaluated to keep up with unpredicted change.

You are saying that selfish clubs in the South are killing the sport? Hmm, without the clubs in the South there will be not enough trail permit buyers to have trails in the North. If all the clubs south of the line North Bay and Sudbury are folding there will no trails and permit buyers left. If all clubs north of the line North Bay and Sudbury are folding, all other clubs will do better. There is going too much money up North to clubs who have almost no permit sales, no local support, almost no volunteers and lots of free loaders. Trails red to be cut in the North. If the South is cutting trails, we will loose lots of permit buyers. To be clear, the biggest problems are in the North and NOT in the South. There is/was a club in the North who had last season not one trail permit sold. With the decreased permit sales year after year, we can't afford to keep all the trails open. Snowmobiling in the North of Ontario will change next couple of years.

Getting more permit buyers up North, that will not happen. In a survey of the OFSC, there was a sad point, less than 10% of the permit buyers is willing to travel more then 3 hours.

Thanks,

Greg

[Faceman]

That was and is the design of the Matrix and it is working. Many clubs would not exist w/o the Matrix. Stand alone club who sell 30-40 permits do exist is southern Ontario and they have joined associations to survive.

Clubs cannot afford to lose any more funds and really should be fully versed with Framework for change.

[Viperules700]

Great points everyone. If the north keeps failing and I see no reason for that not to continue sadly. It will make the rest of the system more stable. I have only rode above northbay once in 20 years. I have done 60,000kms in that time span. Reality is the economy is underforming and people have less resources to spend on

toys, like sleds. I am seeing less people trailing

because of high fuel prices, time away from home (limited vacation).

[AkronOrange]

You are saying that selfish clubs in the South are killing the sport? Hmm, without the clubs in the South there will be not enough trail permit buyers to have trails in the North. If all the clubs south of the line North Bay and Sudbury are folding there will no trails and permit buyers left. If all clubs north of the line North Bay and Sudbury are folding, all other clubs will do better. There is going too much money up North to clubs who have almost no permit sales, no local support, almost no volunteers and lots of free loaders. Trails red to be cut in the North. If the South is cutting trails, we will loose lots of permit buyers. To be clear, the biggest problems are in the North and NOT in the South. There is/was a club in the North who had last season not one trail permit sold. With the decreased permit sales year after year, we can't afford to keep all the trails open. Snowmobiling in the North of Ontario will change next couple of years.

Getting more permit buyers up North, that will not happen. In a survey of the OFSC, there was a sad point, less than 10% of the permit buyers is willing to travel more then 3 hours.

Thanks,

Greg

That's not exactly what I said.  I said  "The current methods have almost killed the ability to tour all of Ontario.  Selfish clubs in the south have manipulated the existing funding structure to benefit only themselves without any regard for the longevity of the sport."  To clarify; those large clubs have created trails for the sole purpose of having trails to groom, I have heard it myself from numerous club members from those larger clubs, but I'll bet that if I had purchased my one trail permit from Folyette, it would have resulted in higher permit sales per capita than many of the larger clubs in their respective areas.

 

There are problems in the north; freeloaders, low permit sales and lack of support.  These problems exist everywhere, in the south as well. The economy in the north has been poor for a number of years.  It's not that these people don't want to contribute, they simply can't.   I don't know the demographics

 

What the north does have is reliable snow conditions from the end of January usually through mid-March.  I have said it before, the system needs to be restructured.  The trunk trails should be the priority at all cost, maintain the integrity of the system.

 

We can no longer ride to places like: Longlac, Manitouwadge, and Hillsport.

I wonder about the future of: Shining Tree, D'Ville and Wawa.

 

2 years ago we almost didn't have a "C" trail north from Sudbury.  Each year "A" through Temagami opens late.  Areas in need should be the priority of the OFSC where ever they may be.