Framework for Change -Progress or Knee-jerk?

[Lep]

 

I think I get it.  We should all ride as close to Toronto as possible, that's what's most important. 

 

It is not about what is happening now, it what is about to happen.  It's what you do now that will allow or disallow you to do that which you desire.  Plan now for those changes that will occur: 

• The south will become more populated
• the south will have a lower tolerance for "us":
• The south will continue to have less snow.
• The south will have fewer areas for us to ride.

 

Sounds simple to me; protect that which we have.  Stop being so short sighted.

 

Glad your seeing the light....  

[Wildman]

and on the turn of the coin, at that same time, the district and the ofsc are pressuring clubs and districts in the north with good snow cover, signage and a smooth trail, to close their trails for no reason other than to save insurance costs due to a date? this short changes the permit buyer. if there is rideable snow, it should be listed as such.

 

people throwing rider numbers out are just pulling these numbers out of their rear ends. yes riders including myself, will tell you they only see a handful of sleds on the trail each day in the north but, we are all traveling too. that means if other groups are in front of us or behind us all day, we may never see them. but, when we get to the end destination, the hotels, b&b's, resturants ect... are full each evening. how did those sledders get there? if you want solid figures, ask the fuel station attendants how many sleds come through remote areas on a daily basis.  

 

there are more than "just a few" sleds using these trails, and how can anyone comment on an area for sledding traffic or yearly stable conditions IF YOU HAVE NEVER RIDDEN THERE?????

 

this is just another way to say, close these other areas to save my area, so i can ride from MY BASE.

 

i think what some of us are trying to get through the thicker skulls here is... why close trails that get the snow cover every season, while another club that might not even open their trails the whole season, or is only open a few weeks v.s a few months???  just because they have more permit holders???? if you have no snow to groom what are you collecting funds for???

 

and answer me this, if you have no snow to groom, or only groom a few weeks, why is it soooooooooo important for you guys to want to close another region who has snow, when YOU DONT?????

 

instead of basing if a club or district is in or out of the ofsc by permit sales alone, why not base it on the number of days these clubs/districts can remain open due to snow conditions? if you cant be open for 21 days in a row, you are no longer part of the ofsc.

 

makes no sense closing an area with snow cover. makes no sense, keeping an area with no snow cover. if you use some peoples thinking on here on permit sales.

 

YOU CANT JUST LOOK AT ONE THING, AND SAY, OK, LETS CLOSE EM UP!

 

LOOK AT THE BIGGER PICTURE PEOPLE.

 

Ski

carefull what you wish for there Mr. . I have posted #, maybe people don't realize they are real #'s. You need to get some real information in front of you and understand it before you go flapping your gums. There are a huge # of permits sold in the areas you are centering out. The majority don't travel, and the ones that do travel allot are educated and they buy one permit from the local club and the rest from areas they ride when they travel. If you are basing your opinions off anything but real data, you are talking about nothing, and I am telling you, most of you are talking about nothing. Shut areas down like Warwick cause we don't get much snow on a regular basis, the federation will lose allot of money......go back in my post history, I posted the real #'s on my club and how much we contribute to the system. I can tell you, 75 % will not buy permits if there is no local club. NOT EVERYONE TRAVELS, get that through YOUR THICK SKULL.

  As I have said in the past, I don't want to see the province split up or trails close, I am involved and I do know the numbers, I run my own business and have done so for 14 years, I understand what it takes in this province, in this country. I can assure you, the people that are involved know what they are doing and 98% of them are not on this forum, and I can see why.

[Canuck]

Not many "thick" skulls or #*!% in this group. Just different perspectives.

 

"Cottage" sledding vs touring. The latter requires more government funding (it is 'tourism') and I suspect that in time, the provincial government will see the light.

[Lep]

Basic's peeps......do we even know how many ACTIVE volunters we have in the 217 clubs????
(dont come back and tell me when a peep buys a permit they are considered a active member,I mean a peep that puts some time in to enjoy this sport).

......do we know how many ACTIVE registered sleds in ONT????
(our friends the MTO should be fit to hit enter then print??)

......how many clubs have CLUB HOUSES etc
(i know there's very few left in D5/9 and what we do have the clubs make do)

......how many clubs have TRAIL building projects on there agenda.
(projects they NEED or WANT)

......how many clubs have a abundance of groomers/equipment for 1 club for the amount of
trail they have???(maybe move some equipment around since I am made to believe its the
OFSC's equipment anyhow LOL)

.......with the $$$ that is pushed around the prov yrly is there central buying power for fuel
equipment etc...???( yes some of the u pat my back I will pat yours may have to go LOL)

.......could all clubs work with a xxx of dollars per permit and have signage/fuel etc all
looked after for there region...big projects would have to be okayed and also does the
club need it or want it..

........how many TOP trails does each club look after...and how many clubs trails do they have.


Basic's is where we need to start and have real #### not just pulled out of a hat.


Have at it boys....I am out .....some good reading etc...reading between the lines Enjoy it
while we can...

[skidooboy]

Wildman, please re-read my post. the flapping gums comment was alittle out of line. i didnt wish for anything, i didnt throw out any numbers, it was a response to a previous post. my posts is pointing out as a the devils advocate a similar but different possible "rule" to stay in the ofsc as a club. it was meant to look at as a reflection of what is being asked to stay in the ofsc. persons or groups should look at several criteria to stay in the ofsc not just permit sales. permit sales come an go, rise and fall depending on the economy and snow cover. just like the trails, rise and fall with the economy and snow cover.

 

 

i am wondering if you grabbed the wrong answer to quote.

 

i am about done here anyway.

 

Ski

[Sasquatch777]

I think I see the light. The North is doomed just because of smaller density! It has nothing to do with trails or people that work to keep them open. The Southern high density clubs have decided that it is time to sacrifice the North and abolish the Matrix. It is a every man (club) for themselves attitude that seems to be the prevelent one. Survival of the fittest and all that.

 

Yes we in the North get transfer payments based on the Matrix. The OFSC wanted us, they wanted the top trails, we provided the top trails even if it meant closing our club trails and loosing riders because of it. We where convinced the OFSC was in it for the long haul. Man does it look like we where wrong! We should have kept the club trails open and closed the top trails, but the OFSC would have ousted us if we did, so we where between a rock and a hard place.

 

So you know what I agree the North can not survive on its own therefore it is doomed. Never thought otherwise! But the most humorous part is that the South is in trouble not because of the North but rather because of tresspassers and lack of sales because of no snow. The funny part is that all this has done is create a hostile environment within the members, clubs and districs. The OFSC comes forward with a FFC idea that is met with disdain. If the governing body can not bring forward an idea that is not met with acceptance when they have the numbers then we are all doomed to fail.

 

As I have said before its up to you guys in the South. We have no voice that will be listened to because we are all a bunch of leeches on the system. We take money from all those poor clubs in the South that are struggling to survive just like us. We are expendable and justifiably so! I get it! The long haul is over!

 

Now before you think I am feeling sorry for myself I will add the only thing that will change for me is where I do my riding. So do your worst I will survive and become jaded like the Pig. My luck however is that if the smarter heads at the OFSC do throw us under the bus to slow it down because the brakes failed, rather then work together to fix the broken line. Well its just that Manitoba is within riding distance and only a short drive away buy truck. Bonus is its a better bang for the buck at 125 bucks for a pass.

 

I guess the sad part is once the trails close and infastructure is disbanded, they will never open again! Even sadder is I think the South if they follow status quo will only prolong the inevitable even with the demise of the North. Good luck to ya.

 

I'm out!

[Bucking Pig]

So we should close the trails where the vast majority of riders actually want to ride and have time to ride in favour of the trails that are important and relevant to you. Just remember those trails in the south will be really hard to reestablish once they're gone. You accuse everyone of wanting to protect their own trails but you do exactly the same. There are low snow cycles and high snow cycles. The only guarantee is that there is no guarantee.

Wrong, Bonehead. I don't give a crap about anybody's trails (sorry everyone). Close em all for all I care. I don't use them and, quite frankly, don't see myself ever using them. I feel for those who do use them, and feel sorry for those who will be losing trails they like to ride.

[02Sled]

Wrong, Bonehead. I don't give a crap about anybody's trails (sorry everyone). Close em all for all I care. I don't use them and, quite frankly, don't see myself ever using them. I feel for those who do use them, and feel sorry for those who will be losing trails they like to ride.

I won't stoop to your level of name calling. I keep reiterating this is not a north south thing and I believe in the matrix principle. The matrix is weighted where some areas will get more $ than others dependent upon a number of criteria. The essence of the current situation is that there is less $ going into the pot the matrix draws from. That means that essentially EVERYONE has less $ to spend, SOUTH, NORTH and IN BETWEEN. I suspect clubs will need to close some trails in a number of areas due to lack of $ or perhaps manage to hold fund raising events to come up with extra $ for their club to keep them open.

[Panther340]

What the southern snow machine owners fail to realize is that the norths snow machine owners still have all sorts of choices on where to ride even if OFSC was not in the picture up here. We have unplowed rural roads and logging roads into lakes or over to camps, lodges or even towns all on crown land. Many of us northerners can use our machines to go to highschool, to a neighbor or just to ditch bang in a friends field. Do you think a guy in Elliot Lake or Wawa or Sudbury or Sault is going to sell their machine if OFSC goes under. (they might sell or give up sport if val tags and insurance gets too expensive but that is it.)

But southerners, have very little if any riding if OFSC goes under, they might as well sell their machines because they are too cheap even to drive more than three hours (heck in the north we do that just to go to a doctors appointment)and maybe that is why the panic mode has set in .........damm the north we can't afford you....or all riders should pay even if they don't use the trails......is the cry from the south.........WELL the NORTH says good riddance !! No doubt some of my friends and relatives liked the trails.....it was easier to go faster, easier to convince their wife to come along on smooth trails. But it is not the end of sledding up here for them or for me......FAR FROM IT .........

I also think the OFSC and their supposed all important SURVEY was a crock, it surveyed a demographic of riders that used the OFSC trails only, a true survey would be one that was non partisam and was available to all owners, and advertised so as to hit all demographics. As it is it gave them the results they wanted to see, and now a days that is the manipulative way all sorts of groups pretend their message is the gospel ! I was probably one of the few non OFSC riders that found the survey and filled it out, where was the other 125,000 val tag owners ? I did see some very manipulative questions in the survey that required you to chose an answer when none of the four answers were representative of what you wanted or believed, and you could not leave it blank.....those are manipulative surveys, I see it in marketing often.

[Lep]

What the southern snow machine owners fail to realize is that the norths snow machine owners still have all sorts of choices on where to ride even if OFSC was not in the picture up here. We have unplowed rural roads and logging roads into lakes or over to camps, lodges or even towns all on crown land. Many of us northerners can use our machines to go to highschool, to a neighbor or just to ditch bang in a friends field. Do you think a guy in Elliot Lake or Wawa or Sudbury or Sault is going to sell their machine if OFSC goes under. (they might sell or give up sport if val tags and insurance gets too expensive but that is it.)

But southerners, have very little if any riding if OFSC goes under, they might as well sell their machines because they are too cheap even to drive more than three hours (heck in the north we do that just to go to a doctors appointment)and maybe that is why the panic mode has set in .........damm the north we can't afford you....or all riders should pay even if they don't use the trails......is the cry from the south.........WELL the NORTH says good riddance !! No doubt some of my friends and relatives liked the trails.....it was easier to go faster, easier to convince their wife to come along on smooth trails. But it is not the end of sledding up here for them or for me......FAR FROM IT .........

I also think the OFSC and their supposed all important SURVEY was a crock, it surveyed a demographic of riders that used the OFSC trails only, a true survey would be one that was non partisam and was available to all owners, and advertised so as to hit all demographics. As it is it gave them the results they wanted to see, and now a days that is the manipulative way all sorts of groups pretend their message is the gospel ! I was probably one of the few non OFSC riders that found the survey and filled it out, where was the other 125,000 val tag owners ? I did see some very manipulative questions in the survey that required you to chose an answer when none of the four answers were representative of what you wanted or believed, and you could not leave it blank.....those are manipulative surveys, I see it in marketing often.

340....dont hog the corner's when it happens cause ski or I could becoming the other way....great post .....and u are correct ofsc or not the north will have snow and the logging roads hydro cuts etc aint going anywhere fast.....and its not just recreation to u peeps up there its a way of travel snowmaching.....Time to get your policing in other when they start heading north....LOL.

[AkronOrange]

If you guys know it so well and you want to help out the North, why are you guys not donating $1000 a person to the clubs out North?

Why let other people pay for you guys?

Thanks

Greg

And I do.  I spend every dollar in the north.  When it ends I spend no more.  Ontario has not found a way to properly market the touring riding available in the north.

[Canuck]

 Ontario has not found a way to properly market the touring riding available in the north.

I will agree with that. We've had some great "general" ad campaigns (Yours to Discover/which was as good as I luv NY) but the link between Ontario snowmobiles and touring possibilities isn't there. I read most mags that cater to sledders and those that don't (Cottage Life, Outdoor mags) and if a snowmobiler isn't seeing that element promoted, it likely isn't.  In addition to "Take a buddy sledding" we should have "Take a buddy to Northern Ontario sledding". I've introduced riders to Port Severn trails and Cochrane. Eye openers for both groups. They ranged from non-sledders to farm / concession riders.

 

BTW - there are still many riders, even in Southern Ontario, that don't ride OFSC trails. We may be divided into North/South on this forum but it's the wrong issue. Moving money from south to north is moving money from the same pot. The focus should be on getting more permits onto snowmobiles. If this were a company, you'd have one group looking at how to sell more permits and another looking at how to allocate the funds. Two separate issues. My gut tells me that FFC tried to combine the two.

[AkronOrange]

I think I get it.... everyone in "southern" Ontario should take Friday off work, drive 6 or more hours north, spend the night in a motel to get up and ride Saturday, spend the night in the motel to drive 6 or more hours home on Sunday to make sure that you have some place convenient for you to ride. Your assumptions about fewer areas to ride and less snow are stabs in the dark. Cycles in mother nature happen. It was a short number of years ago the "north" had little snow while the south had plenty. About 3 or 4 years ago Midland had 15' of snow fall and if not for a couple of thaws would have simply been buried. Driving down the road in town the blower cuts at the sidewalk were as high as or higher than most of the people walking.

 

You talk about protectionism by the "south" but what you are in reality saying is protect the "north" where you choose to ride. Personally I want to see as much as possible remain open in as many places as possible regardless of where they are but the economnic reality is the cash isn't there to sustain everything. For MANY years the "south" that you have a distaste for has kept the "north" afloat with cash being sent north. Now that there is a shortage of cash and less available to send north you cry foul.

 

Hypothetcial situation. If my club in the "south" sold 300 permits and were in desperate need to replace a bridge and we had just enough cash to pay to rebuild that bridge and your club in the "north" sold 50 permits and also needed to rebuild a bridge should we

 

1. Rebuild our bridge and say, sorry we would love to help you if we had the cash
2. Send the cash that would have rebuilt our bridge to your club to rebuild yours
3. Send half our cash to your club and neither of us have enough to rebuild either bridge

The reality is there is simply a shortage of cash and a rationalization of where the money goes has to be done for virtually every penny spent by every club regardless of where they are.

 

As for you comment about the south having "a bunch of weekend a$$holes that don't give a damn about the sport." You know what you can do with that comment... #$%^&. There are countless volunteers and dedicated people that spend enormous amounts of time and effort caring about this sport year round.

 

Yes, that's what I'm saying; and it's not 6 hours, it's more like 4 1/2 to North Bay from NY, and it's not all of the time everyone should ride the north, just once or twice per season.  Go "up" there, see what they have to offer.   And let's not talk about hypothetical, let's talk about what's really happening, trails are closing.  I drive right through cottage country to get to the places where I choose to ride.  When the touring is gone, so am I and my money.  Am I really that different?  I have tried the Muskoka region several times, the conditions and people do not compare to those in the north, that's not saying folks in the south are not nice and helpful, they are, for the most part, only they're and helping us for the dollar, their dedication is much more self-serving.  I have too much of that here.

[Canuck]

It's funny. My first introduction to New York sledders was in a little town called Port Sydney. They'd ride up for a week and we'd have a blast with them at the local inn.

 

Then they discovered the trails in North Bay, and soon Cochrane.  We resisted for about 10 years, then went further north, starting in North Bay.

 

As long as the southern cottagers keep buying permits, those systems will be okay. If they stop (and this generation of teenagers has stopped driving cars, so who's to say they'll sled), and tourists fly by on the way north, issues will develop.

[Rich Saul]

 

 

BTW - there are still many riders, even in Southern Ontario, that don't ride OFSC trails. We may be divided into North/South on this forum but it's the wrong issue. Moving money from south to north is moving money from the same pot. The focus should be on getting more permits onto snowmobiles. If this were a company, you'd have one group looking at how to sell more permits and another looking at how to allocate the funds. Two separate issues. My gut tells me that FFC tried to combine the two.

 You just put the problem on the table,  Now lets see something to go to AGM with off this.

[Faceman]

Canuck..Thanks for putting this back on track. And /or does anyone know what FFC proposes?

Morning Rich!

[Bucking Pig]

 

BTW - there are still many riders, even in Southern Ontario, that don't ride OFSC trails. We may be divided into North/South on this forum but it's the wrong issue. Moving money from south to north is moving money from the same pot. The focus should be on getting more permits onto snowmobiles. If this were a company, you'd have one group looking at how to sell more permits and another looking at how to allocate the funds. Two separate issues. My gut tells me that FFC tried to combine the two.

 

Well said!  Convince me why I should buy a permit, don't try to steal money out of my pocket (i.e. Val Tag Fees), whether I want to use the trails or not!\

BP