Faceman Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 I've been trying to educate myself on the OFSC Framework for Change proposal and I encourage everyone else to do same prior to AGM. And for those club members not attending I would suggest you pass on your thoughts to those voting members attending. I'll start this thread from a neutral position and see where it goes.. Thoughts please????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 I'll be honest, I haven't kept up with it, and I don't sit on the board anymore, but in my opinion, the federation is grasping at straws. There is not enough income to support the entire system. I don't see allot coming from it, unless some new proposal has been brought forward. The worst part of the whole deal, last years agm there was a vote on having a panel do whatever they felt was needed to increase permit sales and or income. As far as I heard from my club, that motion passed, and I have yet to have anybody correct me on that. If this is in fact true, that panel can do what ever they want.....not a good deal. Another thing that may happen, is you may not have much information till you get to the agm (on frame work for change). Have the agm packages been recieved yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 From what I can tell at this point, it seems that an Early, Early Bird Trail Permit purchased online only on or before November 1st is about all that is going forward for 2013-2014 PROVIDED this passes at September OFSC AGM and can be implemented immediately. There appears to be a good effort trying to upgrade Trail Patrollers to STOP Officers for the sole purpose of ticketing snowmobilers without a valid Trail Permit. I looked into it and it is supposed to be primarily online training, a test by OPP and some field work to learn and be assessed by OPP Officers. One catch is that you need to be certified in CPR & First Aid. This is certainly needed to increase on trail enforcement of the increasing number of Freeloaders. Regional Permits won't go ahead in 2013-2014. No idea how the funds are going to be shared if in fact there is a change. July mailing of AGM package should be interesting. We will be discussing several of these matters tomorrow night at our Board of Directors Meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Is the free weekend on for another season too? Trying to get my neighbor back onto his sled. Hasn't had a permit, since 2010. He has an 09 artic cat with 900 miles. Only rode it one season. He has family day off, so maybe I can get him out with his soon, if the weekend is on again. Tough to get people to get thier sleds out and buy permits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Yes, i'm sure the Free Family Day Weekend is on again for this coming season. I don't agree with it being that weekend for free riding but that's what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 I'll be honest, I haven't kept up with it, and I don't sit on the board anymore, but in my opinion, the federation is grasping at straws. There is not enough income to support the entire system. I don't see allot coming from it, unless some new proposal has been brought forward. The worst part of the whole deal, last years agm there was a vote on having a panel do whatever they felt was needed to increase permit sales and or income. As far as I heard from my club, that motion passed, and I have yet to have anybody correct me on that. If this is in fact true, that panel can do what ever they want.....not a good deal. Another thing that may happen, is you may not have much information till you get to the agm (on frame work for change). Have the agm packages been recieved yet? Just a small correction. The motion that was passed was for the committee to continue to work towards increasing permit sales and revenue and bring it to the membership for approval (in other words, this year's AGM) Also, the AGM packages have not been mailed yet and will not be until August 14. My personal opinion is that we need to do something, but I do not have the solution. The Early permit (before Nov 1) concerns me somewhat as the additional fees charged to the clubs for the fulfillment and delivery, along with the additional $30 discount will be a huge cut in the club funding, assuming that the club's cost will be the same as other full season permits. However, I have not seen the details of the plan so I will withhold judgement until I see the mailing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave K Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 There appears to be a good effort trying to upgrade Trail Patrollers to STOP Officers for the sole purpose of ticketing snowmobilers without a valid Trail Permit. I looked into it and it is supposed to be primarily online training, a test by OPP and some field work to learn and be assessed by OPP Officers. One catch is that you need to be certified in CPR & First Aid. This is certainly needed to increase on trail enforcement of the increasing number of Freeloaders. I like this idea, and would be willing to take this course to help my club out. Many unpermitted riders in our area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Yes, i'm sure the Free Family Day Weekend is on again for this coming season. I don't agree with it being that weekend for free riding but that's what it is. Does this not have to be voted on at the AGM. They claim it was a success but I don't believe you can even try to measure the success until the end of the coming season when you can correlate those that took advantage of the free weekend with those that buy passes this year. If only a small percentage of those free weekend riders buy permits it was a failure. If a significant number of those buy permits this year and the numbers go up then the program was a success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Does this not have to be voted on at the AGM. This was actually passed at last year's AGM for both 2013 and 2014. Although a motion to change this could probably be brought up this year. Personally, I don't think that one year's results are enough and the program should at least run one more year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Just a small correction. The motion that was passed was for the committee to continue to work towards increasing permit sales and revenue and bring it to the membership for approval (in other words, this year's AGM) I feel better about that, and what you say makes sence, I couldn't imagine giving a committee the power to do as they please. If things don't change there will be a huge downsizing province wide, it is the only way if more revenue is not introduced. I think organized snowmobiling is the only place where inflation is not accepted by the end user.........wonder what a 2016 sled, good used trailer and 2k in gear will be worth in 2017 when organized snowmobiling is gone? leme guess 5/8 of FA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Agreed and how much do the sled manufacturers put back into the sport compared to their total advertising budget? My educated guess would be 1%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Agreed and how much do the sled manufacturers put back into the sport compared to their total advertising budget? Skidoo gave back a fair bit several years ago. Was a pain to get people to fill out from, get dealer to stamp it, to get 10 bucks. It helped out a few clubs that had a local doo dealer. If all manufactures would have follow suit, that would have made a huge difference. Bottom line is people have to support the system. Car manufactures don't support roads. Whatever the manufactures do, is a bonus. We can't count on it. A few good winters will help for sure. My educated guess would be 1%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I think organized snowmobiling is the only place where inflation is not accepted by the end user......... I have recollections of the early purchase permit being $100 in 1996. Adjusted for inflation, the early purchase permit should be about $145 today. We're outpacing that by a significant margin. Though I am blown away by the fact that I can buy a 2014 snowmobile for less than I paid for my 2004 model of the same equipment, so you've got a point on that end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I have recollections of the early purchase permit being $100 in 1996. Adjusted for inflation, the early purchase permit should be about $145 today. We're outpacing that by a significant margin. Though I am blown away by the fact that I can buy a 2014 snowmobile for less than I paid for my 2004 model of the same equipment, so you've got a point on that end. ya, how much was fuel in '96? betcha grooming equipment wasn't 230k +. People can cut it and decipher it however they want, it is time to open the eyes, organized sleding does not operate on hopes and dreams, it operates on cash, and a pile more than '96 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 This was actually passed at last year's AGM for both 2013 and 2014. Although a motion to change this could probably be brought up this year. Personally, I don't think that one year's results are enough and the program should at least run one more year. I agree that one year is not likely a good measure of the success rate however calling it a huge success as some have because 14000 or so people took advantage is absurd. Turn that into permit sales and you have a winner. Even if it is only perhaps 20%. I do think that it should be earlier in the season which could then turn into permit buyers for that season. Nobody is really going to buy a full season permit in Feb and what they experience may well be forgotten the next season. Now if it was in early or mid Jan in a typical snow year then they just may have a good time and buy a permit for the balance of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 I agree that one year is not likely a good measure of the success rate however calling it a huge success as some have because 14000 or so people took advantage is absurd. Turn that into permit sales and you have a winner. Even if it is only perhaps 20%. I do think that it should be earlier in the season which could then turn into permit buyers for that season. Nobody is really going to buy a full season permit in Feb and what they experience may well be forgotten the next season. Now if it was in early or mid Jan in a typical snow year then they just may have a good time and buy a permit for the balance of the season. I still think there should be a processing fee. Why not charge say 35 bucks to get acess to the free permit. For 3 days that is cheap. That would bring in around 400k plus. That equals 1800 full season permits. Make the fee refundable if they purchase a full season permit, within a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 I still think there should be a processing fee. Why not charge say 35 bucks to get acess to the free permit. For 3 days that is cheap. That would bring in around 400k plus. That equals 1800 full season permits. Make the fee refundable if they purchase a full season permit, within a week. So your saying then that there should be a 35 dollar 3 day permit and get rid of the 3 day free permit. I know some people are stupid but you really think you can fool people into paying 35bucks and still call the permit free? If they wanted a full season permit they would have bought one! The only reason 14,000 people applied for a permit is because it was free! Adding a redeemable 35 dollar coupon that costs another 200 plus dollars to redeem is not going to generate 400,000 dollars. You have to get people to buy back into a very expensive sport. Just keep jacking up the permit price until you have enough money, simple solution right! Some people seem to think that the cookie jar has no bottom! Let me know in a few years how that works out. The solution is simple and yet so many want to make the solution so complicated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 dump the permit to 100 bux, lets see what happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 dump the permit to 100 bux, lets see what happens I can tell you already. Groomers would be stopped. trails would be closed because of no insurance. It would only take one winter and it would be all over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 So your saying then that there should be a 35 dollar 3 day permit and get rid of the 3 day free permit. I know some people are stupid but you really think you can fool people into paying 35bucks and still call the permit free? If they wanted a full season permit they would have bought one! The only reason 14,000 people applied for a permit is because it was free! Adding a redeemable 35 dollar coupon that costs another 200 plus dollars to redeem is not going to generate 400,000 dollars. You have to get people to buy back into a very expensive sport. Just keep jacking up the permit price until you have enough money, simple solution right! Some people seem to think that the cookie jar has no bottom! Let me know in a few years how that works out. The solution is simple and yet so many want to make the solution so complicated! If its simple why don't you tell us what it is and we can stop worrying about the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 I can tell you already. Groomers would be stopped. trails would be closed because of no insurance. It would only take one winter and it would be all over well at least 2 of us know what would happen..........people that can't afford the sport get out, and they blame it on the price of the permit. That is a bold face lie, or they are idiots. We have beat the permit price to death. It is user pay.....hence the people participating pay the bills. It really is a simple concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white dragon Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 dropping the permit price is out of the question...we need to get insurance cost down or close trails...we can't give up & need to accept a new direction with new ideas...something has to change...happy summer boys,only 6 months to the snow flies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 I still believe people will pay the 35 dollar fee for the 3 day free permit. Heck they paid 140 bucks to put insurance on thier sled. I think the motion should be passed. Even if 10,000k go out, that is 350,000 bonus bucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 I still believe people will pay the 35 dollar fee for the 3 day free permit. Heck they paid 140 bucks to put insurance on thier sled. I think the motion should be passed. Even if 10,000k go out, that is 350,000 bonus bucks. I would bet that well over half of the free riders did so without insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 I would bet that well over half of the free riders did so without insurance. That really bothers me. All of the free riders I talked too, had insurance. One couple pays to go into haulburton forest several times a winter, but don't buy a seasonal Ontario trail pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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