Sasquatch777 Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 If the freeloading thieves paid their way maybe the cost of the trail permit could drop. It scares me to think of the excuses people have for not having a permit. One of the more laughable ones is the guy on a 1 or 2 year old sled who has the permit in his pocket because he is going to buy a new sled. If you can take that kind of a hit on depreciation and buy a new sled every year or two you can pony up the $10 for a new permit. I know the permit is supposed to go with the sled but the reality is most permits don't have the VIN number supplied at time of purchase and if you peel off the old permit and take it in you can get a new one for $10. Or the guy who is getting a new windshield Or the guy who only rides that brand new sled once a year to get to his cottage which happens to be miles away. Or the guy going ice fishing on a lake that doesn't have one single hut on it and he doesn't have any fishing equipment with him and he is miles away from the lake on our trails. The excuses are almost limitless. No registration number equals no permit sold. I guess that is why the police ask for the green slip. You know the one that the OFSC says you must carry with you to make you permit valid! If the paperwork does not have the registration number then the permit is not valid and you can be charged with no permit. We don't sell anyone a permit without the reg number on it! But maybe this is what I have been doing wrong all these years. Thats for the tip! From now on I will not put on the reg number and then if my main sled breaks I buy a new permit for 10 bucks for my old sled. Thanks for the tip! Good one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luther Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 New Yorks permit is $90.00. How can they do it with one of the highest tax and insurance costs in the states??? You have lost permit sales to New York and Michigan. I have several friends in Southern Ontario that have the option to drive 1-2 hours spend $90.00 for a seasons pass or drive 2-3 hrs and get an Ontario Pass guess where they are going? Good luck I miss riding Ontario, but with the increased cost in permits, pour exchange rate and dead end of the A trail I won't be back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 classic let's use a scenario that is familiar in the north. a small community of less than a 1000 people or for the sake of arguement less than 3000 people. you are a business owner helping the trails, and this help to get more business for yourself, and promotes your town and tourism (sound familiar)? on the weekend or on a week night you stop several locals, and "ticket" them for no permit. how long before every towns person knows you are the local debbie downer, and stop comming to your business? or the same scenario and you are not a business owner but a regular working person. you ticket the locals that you work with. how long before you are a pariah and now made to feel uncomfortable with your peers at work? or worse they vandalize your personal property, houses, cars, ect.... this type of enforcement will work in a larger community but, you cannot do this without ALOT of repercussions in the smaller northern communities. Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 classic let's use a scenario that is familiar in the north. a small community of less than a 1000 people or for the sake of arguement less than 3000 people. you are a business owner helping the trails, and this help to get more business for yourself, and promotes your town and tourism (sound familiar)? on the weekend or on a week night you stop several locals, and "ticket" them for no permit. how long before every towns person knows you are the local debbie downer, and stop comming to your business? or the same scenario and you are not a business owner but a regular working person. you ticket the locals that you work with. how long before you are a pariah and now made to feel uncomfortable with your peers at work? or worse they vandalize your personal property, houses, cars, ect.... this type of enforcement will work in a larger community but, you cannot do this without ALOT of repercussions in the smaller northern communities. Ski I understand what (and who) you are talking about. One of the solutions might be for the new STOP program to allow the members to patrol outside of their home area. A southern volunteer could ride in the north and issue a ticket for no permit. Just a thought and I do not know if this is part of the plan or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 classic let's use a scenario that is familiar in the north. a small community of less than a 1000 people or for the sake of arguement less than 3000 people. you are a business owner helping the trails, and this help to get more business for yourself, and promotes your town and tourism (sound familiar)? on the weekend or on a week night you stop several locals, and "ticket" them for no permit. how long before every towns person knows you are the local debbie downer, and stop comming to your business? or the same scenario and you are not a business owner but a regular working person. you ticket the locals that you work with. how long before you are a pariah and now made to feel uncomfortable with your peers at work? or worse they vandalize your personal property, houses, cars, ect.... this type of enforcement will work in a larger community but, you cannot do this without ALOT of repercussions in the smaller northern communities. Ski I understand that perfectly. So what kind of enforcement do you suggest? The OPP has not and will expend any more officers to snowmobile trails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 ya, how much was fuel in '96? Adjusted for inflation based on today's price, it should have been about $0.80/litre for gasoline. It seems the real price was about $0.60/L according to StatsCan. If we base our inflation numbers on the real increase of fuel costs, the permit is still running 5% over. I'm not suggesting the permit costs too much, but it's not just an inflationary issue. It actually costs more than it once did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 02Sled, I actually don't see too many 'freeloaders' on the trails. Don't know where they are riding, but I don't see them. Wonder if anyone's ever actually done a study (monitor trail use in a specific area; "permitted or not", etc for a Saturday, Sunday and arbitrarily, a Wednesday). Heck, you could probably set it up so that members of this forum state: Date; number of kms ridden, 'freeloaders' seen. (is this where Mossy tells me to 'get a life' ... again lol. Cause he's the first guy I'd volunteer for this) In the past I would agree with you Canuck. In the course of a season I would come across perhaps a couple who had the permit in their pocket. Two seasons ago with the very limited snow we had there were a if I recall correctly 5 I came across on our trails in the final couple of weeks of ridable snow. Last season as you know I rode not only our trails but also trailered to other areas. Our trails alone in a 2 weekend window I came across 6 unpermitted sleds and sold 2 passes trailside. I saw a number of sleds do a sudden turn around when they saw me coming down the trail. It is a growing problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 education really does nothing for the "average sledder". by average i dont mean those that go every weekend. i mean the people who have snowmachines, and use them a few times a season max. unfortunately that is the majority of the sledding public. those that go multiple weekends, every weekend, or several times a season, travel/trailer distances to sled, are the minority, and the "hardcore". i have stated this before... it is a percieved value. if you knew you were only going to go golfing at a resort 1-3 times a year, would you buy a season pass? if you were going through the locks with your boat 1-2 times a season would you buy a year long pass? if you were going to the ski hill 2-4 times a year would you buy a season pass, if you were going to go to the dinner theater one or two times a year, would you buy a membership???? in most of these cases the answer is no. trying to tell someone that may only go 1-2 weekends a year they need to pony up for 200.00 or more dollars (per sled, or per person), they will just do without, ride where there is less enforcement, or no permit required, or as stated above, just go to the hali forrest for the day/weekend. it is a percieved value, and until the minority understand this, the majority will do without. Ski Yet they will pony up say $6K+ for the sled, $200+ for the insurance, $500+ for the clothes $1K+ for the trailer for that one weekend or two a year. They don't have a problem with that expense but they do the $200 for the permit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 No registration number equals no permit sold. I guess that is why the police ask for the green slip. You know the one that the OFSC says you must carry with you to make you permit valid! If the paperwork does not have the registration number then the permit is not valid and you can be charged with no permit. We don't sell anyone a permit without the reg number on it! But maybe this is what I have been doing wrong all these years. Thats for the tip! From now on I will not put on the reg number and then if my main sled breaks I buy a new permit for 10 bucks for my old sled. Thanks for the tip! Good one! It's not the right way... but it is the reality. If you go to the show in October they sell permits and rarely do the people have the VIN number. They do however put down the make year and model. Just like the reality is you rarely see people doing 100 kph on the 400 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 The problem is they know they get away with it. Then thier buddies learn that and stop buying permits too. During the week I can spot lots of sleds without permits, here in d5. Seems to be getting worse every year, since permit numbers are dropping across most clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 classic let's use a scenario that is familiar in the north. a small community of less than a 1000 people or for the sake of arguement less than 3000 people. you are a business owner helping the trails, and this help to get more business for yourself, and promotes your town and tourism (sound familiar)? on the weekend or on a week night you stop several locals, and "ticket" them for no permit. how long before every towns person knows you are the local debbie downer, and stop comming to your business? or the same scenario and you are not a business owner but a regular working person. you ticket the locals that you work with. how long before you are a pariah and now made to feel uncomfortable with your peers at work? or worse they vandalize your personal property, houses, cars, ect.... this type of enforcement will work in a larger community but, you cannot do this without ALOT of repercussions in the smaller northern communities. Ski So you endorse the thieves getting away with riding the trails without a permit and if they would stoop to vandalizing peoples property plain old scum of the earth. If that is the prevelant attitude they don't deserve to have trails to ride. Perhaps when those trails are gone they will realize what they had. Like the song says "you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 again, your reading comprehension is a bit skewed. does it say that i endorse freeloading? DOES IT? the cliff note version is, WHAT WORKS IN HIGH POPULOUS AREAS, MAY NOT WORK SO WELL IN ANOTHER LESS POPULATED. NO MORE AND NO LESS. STOP TREATING ME LIKE YOU ARE BETTER THAN I. in your above tirade about what people will spend, people dont spend those figures every season. most people keep sleds for 5-10 years, most trailers longer than that. you're bending figures to fit your "I'm right, and you're wrong agenda" AGAIN. but, while you are on the subject, you made my point. PERCIEVED VALUE. the sled, trailer and clothes are a tangible value to an average consumer. not buying a permit, and riding where there is no cost to them, to save 2-400 (think married couples) could give a couple another trip or two for their "limited" hobby. PERCIEVED VALUE IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. if you cant get a percieved value from the cost of an item, you may not buy it again. i am really getting tired of you, and your holier than thou attitude. and truely to the observer, THAT IS HOW YOU COME ACCROSS. Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted June 27, 2013 Author Share Posted June 27, 2013 02 sled...ever policed a small community...what Ski says is so true. And I would hope we can continue to respect each others opinion as they are all important..This issue is important! The idea of a roving enforcement team makes sense but guess what...news travels fast is small town Ontario. As I said, no a simple solution, go pound freeloaders in S.O. but I think N.O. needs a bit different approach. And I don't have a solution.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 And going back to my original question, is Framework for Change progress or kneejerk. Not just the permit price but also read the other items in the proposal. Me, the cheap permit comes out of my clubs operating budget, its $30 we don't see. $30 from southern clubs that would go to the matrix anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 $30 from southern clubs that would go to the matrix anyway! IF the formula doesn't change, that $30 comes from the selling club. The money that goes to the matrix is built into the price that the selling club pays for each permit. In addition, the 'selling' club also pays a fulfillment fee and shipping for each permit sold online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Yet they will pony up say $6K+ for the sled, $200+ for the insurance, $500+ for the clothes $1K+ for the trailer for that one weekend or two a year. They don't have a problem with that expense but they do the $200 for the permit? The only part of this that is yearly is the insurance. Sounds nice as an argument but in reality its the annual cost and as I have said the percieved value. I've seen people who pride themselves on saving 10 bucks when shopping. You know the save a buck here save a buck there it all adds up! Nobody said that buying a trail pass is wrong. I love the trails and live for the winter fun but see its not me who you have to talk into buying a pass. There are those who see the OFSC and their permits in a different light. Those are the people who I work to get them to buy into the trails and then the OFSC raises the permit price and I loose them and have to start all over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 bravo 777, well said! Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 So you endorse the thieves getting away with riding the trails without a permit and if they would stoop to vandalizing peoples property plain old scum of the earth. If that is the prevelant attitude they don't deserve to have trails to ride. Perhaps when those trails are gone they will realize what they had. Like the song says "you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone" No I don't and nobody does but I've been there and done that. I won't go there again. Sure close all the trails and then down the road we will see if they open up again. From what I have seen a closed trail stays closed. That has made me an island and cut me off from the rest of the OFSC trails. That is the road the most wish to run down it seems. The OFSC wants to take a different route with the Framework For Change but good luck with this group. If this board is a reflection of what happens at the AGM then I would say kiss the FFC agenda goodbye. The OFSC thinks it will work but the grass routes are afraid of change I guess and want to shoot it down before it has a chance. They want to follow the tried and true method of raise the permits till there is enough money (its worked so well so far right). I'm willing to give the FFC a chance! I know I can sell the regional permits and have a chance of getting more people involved because of it. Raising the permit price will just close more clubs and districts. I guess the AGM will decide my fate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 IF the formula doesn't change, that $30 comes from the selling club. The money that goes to the matrix is built into the price that the selling club pays for each permit. In addition, the 'selling' club also pays a fulfillment fee and shipping for each permit sold online. Just me but I will be buying my permits early this year. As for the argument about the price of the permit. Well I'm not sitting on the fence. I do believe that a less expensive permit is needed to entice riders back into the sport. I also believe there needs to be huge changes to the OFSC as an entity. Insurance being the biggest one. There needs to be a shift in frivolous lawsuits on the government level as well. I know there isn't a simple soulution but raising the price of a seasonal pass sure isn't the answer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 So you endorse the thieves getting away with riding the trails without a permit and if they would stoop to vandalizing peoples property plain old scum of the earth. If that is the prevelant attitude they don't deserve to have trails to ride. Perhaps when those trails are gone they will realize what they had. Like the song says "you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone" Stiffer penalties would curb this behavior. I say if you are caught with no permit/insurance or vandalism you loose your sled! Impounded and fined is the simple answer to that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 No I don't and nobody does but I've been there and done that. I won't go there again. Sure close all the trails and then down the road we will see if they open up again. From what I have seen a closed trail stays closed. That has made me an island and cut me off from the rest of the OFSC trails. That is the road the most wish to run down it seems. The OFSC wants to take a different route with the Framework For Change but good luck with this group. If this board is a reflection of what happens at the AGM then I would say kiss the FFC agenda goodbye. The OFSC thinks it will work but the grass routes are afraid of change I guess and want to shoot it down before it has a chance. They want to follow the tried and true method of raise the permits till there is enough money (its worked so well so far right). I'm willing to give the FFC a chance! I know I can sell the regional permits and have a chance of getting more people involved because of it. Raising the permit price will just close more clubs and districts. I guess the AGM will decide my fate. The reason that a lot of clubs are against the change is what has happened in the past. Think B101, mandatory permits, didn't do a thing for permit sales, created a lot of head aches for clubs. Think classic permits same thing, didn't do anything for overall permit sales. It just converted seasonal buyers into classic buyers at half price. But all the time the club costs continued to increase. Think costs of a groomer almost doubled in 10 years and yet here we are wanting reduced permits by $30. It took 10 years of fighting at AGM to get it to $210, now we want to piss it away with the stroke of a pen. This is a user pay system. If you don't want to pay the cost to run the system then sell your sled and get the hell out. Just don't expect to ride our trails without paying your share. Every body is not going to be able to afford to snowmobile, just like every body can't afford golf or sking. Fire away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Just me but I will be buying my permits early this year. As for the argument about the price of the permit. Well I'm not sitting on the fence. I do believe that a less expensive permit is needed to entice riders back into the sport. I also believe there needs to be huge changes to the OFSC as an entity. Insurance being the biggest one. There needs to be a shift in frivolous lawsuits on the government level as well. I know there isn't a simple soulution but raising the price of a seasonal pass sure isn't the answer! Frame work for change is not about raising prices its about lowering them which we can't afford. Because of a drop in club revenue these past years clubs need to be a lot smarter in how the budget their money. There are still too many clubs sitting with a big bank accounts and too many so called volunteers getting paid under the table. I'm betting there are clubs out there with more than one account that is never shown on their ops reports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 The reason that a lot of clubs are against the change is what has happened in the past. Think B101, mandatory permits, didn't do a thing for permit sales, created a lot of head aches for clubs. Think classic permits same thing, didn't do anything for overall permit sales. It just converted seasonal buyers into classic buyers at half price. But all the time the club costs continued to increase. Think costs of a groomer almost doubled in 10 years and yet here we are wanting reduced permits by $30. It took 10 years of fighting at AGM to get it to $210, now we want to piss it away with the stroke of a pen. This is a user pay system. If you don't want to pay the cost to run the system then sell your sled and get the hell out. Just don't expect to ride our trails without paying your share. Every body is not going to be able to afford to snowmobile, just like every body can't afford golf or sking. Fire away Circle the wagons! LOL Yep that 210 dollars you fought for has closed trails, clubs and now Districts but of course you will argue that it was the economy or whatever as long as it fits your agenda. Framework for change is about regional passes and a val tag fee as two of the four part FFC. The 180 early early permit sale is something different and I think it is a great idea. Be careful with the user pay retoric as the Goverment still gives money just less then they should. User pay would me they give nothing. I don't want to go there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Frame work for change is not about raising prices its about lowering them which we can't afford. Because of a drop in club revenue these past years clubs need to be a lot smarter in how the budget their money. There are still too many clubs sitting with a big bank accounts and too many so called volunteers getting paid under the table. I'm betting there are clubs out there with more than one account that is never shown on their ops reports. Hmmm a regional pass can bring people back into the sport. Val tag brings money in from all sleds. The math was done and the money was there. It just seems like the people who have no confidence in the OFSC think it will bring in less money. Those who are afraid to think outside the box IMHO! If you know of clubs who are in effect stealing money by not reporting it then point them out. Otherwise its a moot point and has little to do with FFC! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lep Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Frame work for change is not about raising prices its about lowering them which we can't afford. Because of a drop in club revenue these past years clubs need to be a lot smarter in how the budget their money. There are still too many clubs sitting with a big bank accounts and too many so called volunteers getting paid under the table. I'm betting there are clubs out there with more than one account that is never shown on their ops reports. Classic..I agree there are clubs with bulleyes on there back with there bank accounts BUT what about the clubs that have may there $$$$ thru FUND raising...IS that $$$ the OFSC's also???.....My club and yes I am the Pres operates on 2500 dollars a year with NO expenses...what I mean by no expenses signage and grooming....all other expenses landower's,crop damage trail maintence etc comes out of that 2500 dollars when that runs drie where does the coin come from OUR FUND riising...the OFSC needs to be very careful with some of the well run organations within there umbrella...some are ready to say #%$# this we are done.the peeps that bitch about the price need to step back and have a very hard look in the mirror...pay or get the #%$# out period....unfortuneately we have listen to them for far to long and look what it has done....everything is going UP like it or lump it...Next few yrs will be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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