Wildman Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 That policy will help some clubs for sure and Hurt the ones that go the extra mile to push permit sales. not really, in most cases with the district lumped together, the permit purchase price for the club is less then if they bought as a single enity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 not really, in most cases with the district lumped together, the permit purchase price for the club is less then if they bought as a single enity. Not always true, yes there were situations that it can be cheaper in other cases is will be more expensive. One of the problems of giving most mone to the districts do that they don't need to try to spend as less mone as possible. Why would you try to repair your groomer if te neighbourh doesn't do it and the bills are paid by the district. Another is why would a club try to save money if the distinct is saying, "if you have money on the bank, spend it first and then come back". I am afraid that te spending is going out of control and it will cost more money in the future, Thanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 If the clubs don't get credit for the permits they sell, it will lead to reduce permit sales overall. Why go to all of the hassle of filling out permit forms, collecting money, chasing people to buy permits etec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 If the clubs don't get credit for the permits they sell, it will lead to reduce permit sales overall. Why go to all of the hassle of filling out permit forms, collecting money, chasing people to buy permits etec. District 5 purchases the permits from the federation, the clubs purchase the permit from the district, the clubs still get recognition for the permits sold. I don't see why you think a club is not getting credit for their permit sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted August 13, 2013 Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 A note within the FFC Greggie is exactly that "  Total shortfalls in both models demonstrates that actual 4 year average expense levels are not sustainable". The OFSC acknowledge that permit sales are dropping yet they base the FFC and the Status Matrix on a Provincial increase of 8000 permits next year yet they fail to identify where and how this will be achieved. Are they banking on the $180 pre-Nov 1 online sales. The $180 will attract the $210 buyers but will not entice the $260-280 buyer...imho And you are now losing $30 per permit although the buyer of the $180 will pay the processing fee of $7.75 ($187.75) where a $210 permit will cost each club $7 ($203 net). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Not always true, yes there were situations that it can be cheaper in other cases is will be more expensive. One of the problems of giving most mone to the districts do that they don't need to try to spend as less mone as possible. Why would you try to repair your groomer if te neighbourh doesn't do it and the bills are paid by the district. Another is why would a club try to save money if the distinct is saying, "if you have money on the bank, spend it first and then come back". I am afraid that te spending is going out of control and it will cost more money in the future, Thanks, Greg this is where everyone has to be open minded and help look after the sport and not just "their" club. Yes we have to look after our clubs, but we do not need to spend wreck lessly. I see the problem, some clubs have volunteers do almost everything and are good at conserving their money, where other clubs pay to have everything done. No one said it was going to be easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted August 13, 2013 Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 District 5 purchases the permits from the federation, the clubs purchase the permit from the district, the clubs still get recognition for the permits sold. I don't see why you think a club is not getting credit for their permit sales. D5 is the permit selling entity where other districts have permits sold by various PSE's (permit selling entities) D5 is standardized where other PSE's will pay different amounts for their permits (between $100 and $140 I believe) I reviewed 2 clubs in D9, both equal trails, one without TOP, one with some. Club without, and some other factors , is paying $140 a permit to the OFSC while the other is paying $100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 D5 is the permit selling entity where other districts have permits sold by various PSE's (permit selling entities) D5 is standardized where other PSE's will pay different amounts for their permits (between $100 and $140 I believe) I reviewed 2 clubs in D9, both equal trails, one without TOP, one with some. Club without, and some other factors , is paying $140 a permit to the OFSC while the other is paying $100. I wonder if D9 would be further ahead to become the entity? of course everybody has to get along for this to happen, not always the easiest feat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 the cost of my clubs permit went up when we went to this system, but it wasn't a big increase or a big deal, it works out better for all clubs in the district, and we seem to work fairly well together when problems arrise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted August 13, 2013 Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 Many clubs have a lot a "grass root" volunteers willing to sign/stake and brush but these same clubs have a hard time filling an executive and the various responsiblities associated with a club. I think you are right but to a much larger degree. I can see more and more club forming Associations, one set of executive for many smaller clubs, one treasurer, one person responsible as the "groomer coordinator". It only makes sense. Right now D9 as example has 29 clubs but only 13 PSE's and groomer coordinators etc. No need to terrorize any more volunteers with the year end paper shuffle than need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 that is where we are at, we actually get quite a few people out to meetings, but come election night, the numbers drop and everyone declines running for a position on the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedtoSkidoo Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Its hard to be on the board when the club is 2.5 hours away. Just sayin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted August 13, 2013 Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 Very true UTS. But its becoming more and more common within the sport. No one wants the title. And you re, many of these positions , Risk, Signage, Inspection etc need someone closeby. We have several "out of towners" who I've never seen at a meeting but , given notice, have made every work party. I love it. Â Anyways, back on topic. And problem being, there is a large percentage of my membership who doesn't really care, even though they should (imho) in stuff like FFC. Once the trails close....see you next December Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted August 14, 2013 Author Share Posted August 14, 2013 FFC report from last night. Well, D9 packed the Markdale Community Center with at least 200 volunteers to listen to President Brenda and her delegation explain FFC, or not explain depending on your point of view. Meeting lasted 2 hours with 40 minutes availible for questions. FFC was requested by the membership....! A large percentage of the recommendations are based on a survey tha the OFSC send out after the non season of 11-12. The survey was sent only to persons who bought a permit in 11-12. If you didn,no survey, no input, Questions that need to be properly addressed include "what do FFC do to address the northern Ontario issue where local do not buy permits? And please have someone properly explain how this $180 permit will benefit my club. I am losing $30 per permit off the $210 price on every $180 sold. The OFSC is projecting selling 37--- of these. Who will they be selling them to....the $210 buyer. This potentially equates to a income loss of $1.1 m . If passed the FFC will be implimented the day after the AGM will a lot of things being downloaded to the District level. Districts need to be fully prepared for potential passage. And I can see the requirement for Districts to hire more staff to deal with club money issues, club requests for funding , etc General feeling was too much, too quick, too soon, and written by a Bay Street lawyer for a Bay Street lawyer. Is FFC sound? Form your own and let us know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Thanks for the report.  I was reading through the FFC report last night and it seems like things are not only downloaded to the district but also uploaded. Permit sales and revenue to the clubs will all go through district, (if I am understanding it correctly).  It seems like clubs will not have any real say as to how to maintain their trails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 So that's it. Â $180 Early, Early bird sold online before November 1st. Districts become Trail Permit Selling Entities, if they already aren't. Clubs get less $$$ to start and have to request additional $$ to be decided at District as year progresses. Â Hopefully someone will post more details ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceman Posted August 14, 2013 Author Share Posted August 14, 2013 Did not say Districts are becoming PSE Brian As far as is there more....nope SJ hit it , tons of downloading to the District. A club will pay 70 per cent permit cost to the OFSC, The 30 per cent left will be transfered to district and then to clubs. You need to read the report and then try and get your head around it. Clubs that can groom efficently will be ahead. OFSC figures that there is about $5m floating around yearly that could go to better use. Have fun tonight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 ok , when did you folks get this report? I have checked with both my treasurer and secratery....we have no report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 regions, val tag income? is it the 4 changes or just a different way of dispersing not enough money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 FFC was supposed to be about increasing revenues and redistributing funds more effectively.  The FFC proposed new/additional Val Tag fees on snowmobiles and ATV's. for over a $1,000,000 new revenue annually.  I and others said it would never happen in today's political climate.  President told us that they were very confident that ON Govt. would approve this proposal.  Never happened. Let's get rid of our paid lobbyists, they failed as we knew they would.  The $180 TP will be jumped all over by the regular sledders resulting in a big decrease in revenue.  IMHO the fence sitters will continue to sit and wait on conditions.  Where do we make up $30 lost from each of our regular Trail Permit buyers?  More bureaucracy and delayed decision making at the District level, just what we don't need.  Anxious to hear for myself tonight.  As usual, the real sledders post here on OC for topics that really matter rather than on FS & HCS.  Hopefully we'll see more info and opinion as the day/week goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 have you seen this report Brian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Wildman this report was sent out ahead of the club agm packages. Our District receieved this on Monday through our Gov. It includes the FFC Proposal and the 2013/14 trail fund proposal Draft. Email your district, I'm sure Susan would have this by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedtoSkidoo Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 was the reasoning behind this explained? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 No, I haven't seen anything as we were advised nothing was being sent out before our District meeting with the President, which is tonight. In fairness, it should have been sent out to everyone at once. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Wildman this report was sent out ahead of the club agm packages. Our District receieved this on Monday through our Gov. It includes the FFC Proposal and the 2013/14 trail fund proposal Draft. Email your district, I'm sure Susan would have this by now. unfortunatly Suzane is no longer our district admin, this could very well be the reason we haven't seen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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