2013 OFSC AGM

[Classic]

well, if a snowmobiler has a sled 5 years old er newer, quits sledding because of the price of the permit, they are delusional. If that same type of person decides to ride the trail anyway, with no permit, they are ignorant. It is plain and simple, it is impossible to fix stupid.

In my opinion, the police presents needs to be spent on permit compliance, there would be far more revenue generated from a day on the trails then there is looking for val tag and insurance violations. The OPP are paid by the municipality and the provincial government, in both cases it is in the best interest to make sure the federation survives. That is the only thing that I see that will reasonably work, aside from the val tag/permit approach. It can be beat to death six ways from sunday, the fact is, users need to pay, I don't care if it is district 5 or 17 and all parts between. That is the problem with being a federation, we lack allot of clout in the enforcement department.

We need province wide enforcement for a whole winter, every ridable weekend, that will end the freeloaders, but it is unreasonable from a financial standpoint, OPP have more important things to look after, and rightfully so.

It will be what it will, it will run its course and we may be back to riding logging roads, and with all the political BS being rammed down my throat, I may be all for it sooner, rather than later.

You are correct about the enforcement. But we need it through the week and on week day nights. Thats when these clowns are riding.

[Panther340]

In the Corporate world that many here I see belong to, we know that at times a company that expands too quickly and spreads themselves to thin………….fails. Now add to the complexity of that company:

1) the use of volunteers to handle the physical work that is critical to maintaining the expansion infrastructure

2) the changing demographics of who wants to stay in sport

3) the economy downturn effect on out of province tourist sales and local sales

4) the climate critically effects term of sport and sales

5) the temporary use of borrowed land and insurance liability

And you have recipe for disaster when any two or more of those complexities fail.

I can see why the volunteers here don’t want to put the blame on the these five factors, but putting the blame on a few freeloaders or a few cottage owners or fishermen that legally can use the trails without paying is missing the obvious. Then when you further want to foist these sport costs thru new val tag revenue, on the rest of the provinces snowmachine owners (that do not want or need your trails for various reasons ) is pushing the envelope of “cause and effect”. It looks like the OFSC had a prime season with the weather this year, now if the sport cannot survive after another one of those winters next year………and resulting in perhaps riders coming back to sport, or young people getting off their computer games and getting outside……….if the sport still is falling short…………..please do not blame it on the rest of us snowmachine owners that do not use your trails and just enjoy the farm land rural road rides or crown land trails to go fishing or to cottages and camps. Please do not foist your sport costs on to val tags because your sport got too big too fast and sales climate changed.

[Wildman]

In the Corporate world that many here I see belong to, we know that at times a company that expands too quickly and spreads themselves to thin………….fails. Now add to the complexity of that company:

1) the use of volunteers to handle the physical work that is critical to maintaining the expansion infrastructure

2) the changing demographics of who wants to stay in sport

3) the economy downturn effect on out of province tourist sales and local sales

4) the climate critically effects term of sport and sales

5) the temporary use of borrowed land and insurance liability

And you have recipe for disaster when any two or more of those complexities fail.

I can see why the volunteers here don’t want to put the blame on the these five factors, but putting the blame on a few freeloaders or a few cottage owners or fishermen that legally can use the trails without paying is missing the obvious. Then when you further want to foist these sport costs thru new val tag revenue, on the rest of the provinces snowmachine owners (that do not want or need your trails for various reasons ) is pushing the envelope of “cause and effect”. It looks like the OFSC had a prime season with the weather this year, now if the sport cannot survive after another one of those winters next year………and resulting in perhaps riders coming back to sport, or young people getting off their computer games and getting outside……….if the sport still is falling short…………..please do not blame it on the rest of us snowmachine owners that do not use your trails and just enjoy the farm land rural road rides or crown land trails to go fishing or to cottages and camps. Please do not foist your sport costs on to val tags because your sport got too big too fast and sales climate changed.

You need to listen and look outside the "northern districts", some of the users you outline are entitled to use the trails for direct use, we all recognize that and some of us accept it. The freeloader problem goes far beyond your back yard, regaurdless of what you may think. It is a province wide problem, many of us see it with our own eyes.

I am not a fan of using a val tag system, but the more I hear you cry about it, the more I would like to see it happen just in spite. You have made it clear you don't approve, we get it.

The same people want to be in the sport, they just don't want to pay their fair share to be here.

[02Sled]

You need to listen and look outside the "northern districts", some of the users you outline are entitled to use the trails for direct use, we all recognize that and some of us accept it. The freeloader problem goes far beyond your back yard, regaurdless of what you may think. It is a province wide problem, many of us see it with our own eyes.

I am not a fan of using a val tag system, but the more I hear you cry about it, the more I would like to see it happen just in spite. You have made it clear you don't approve, we get it.

The same people want to be in the sport, they just don't want to pay their fair share to be here.

I tend to agree Wildman. While there is the option to ride other than the OFSC trails in Panthers part of the province there is very limited opportunity for this in the largest density of sled riding, ie. Muskoka. Very very little is not on private property. In past years permit compliance was quite good. This year abuse was significantly wide spread. In two weeks I stopped more people without a permit than I would have in an entire season. If not reacted to and addressed now it will only get worse.

[Wildbill]

In the Corporate world that many here I see belong to, we know that at times a company that expands too quickly and spreads themselves to thin………….fails. Now add to the complexity of that company:

1) the use of volunteers to handle the physical work that is critical to maintaining the expansion infrastructure

2) the changing demographics of who wants to stay in sport

3) the economy downturn effect on out of province tourist sales and local sales

4) the climate critically effects term of sport and sales

5) the temporary use of borrowed land and insurance liability

And you have recipe for disaster when any two or more of those complexities fail.

I can see why the volunteers here don’t want to put the blame on the these five factors, but putting the blame on a few freeloaders or a few cottage owners or fishermen that legally can use the trails without paying is missing the obvious. Then when you further want to foist these sport costs thru new val tag revenue, on the rest of the provinces snowmachine owners (that do not want or need your trails for various reasons ) is pushing the envelope of “cause and effect”. It looks like the OFSC had a prime season with the weather this year, now if the sport cannot survive after another one of those winters next year………and resulting in perhaps riders coming back to sport, or young people getting off their computer games and getting outside……….if the sport still is falling short…………..please do not blame it on the rest of us snowmachine owners that do not use your trails and just enjoy the farm land rural road rides or crown land trails to go fishing or to cottages and camps. Please do not foist your sport costs on to val tags because your sport got too big too fast and sales climate changed.

Then permit enforcement should not upset you as it will not effect you.

[Panther340]

Your right Wildbill, I couldn't care less about enforcement (although OPP costs go to taxpayers like me but your gas tax costs help mitigate that , so it's a wash)

But Wildman basically proved my point , you ignore the obvious reasons for slide and for spite you would rather the other riders in the province pays for your sport thru val tags revenue even though you would be targetting thousands that do not use trails.

[Viperules700]

I am in favour of a valtag and permit tied into one. I am not in favour of a Val tag raise, since the funds would just go into general tax revenue stream. Mto would never agree for the funds to be only used by federation. Our Val tags now doesn't even go all into road maintaince either. Complex delima for sure.

[02Sled]

Your right Wildbill, I couldn't care less about enforcement (although OPP costs go to taxpayers like me but your gas tax costs help mitigate that , so it's a wash)

But Wildman basically proved my point , you ignore the obvious reasons for slide and for spite you would rather the other riders in the province pays for your sport thru val tags revenue even though you would be targetting thousands that do not use trails.

and how many thousnads do you feel there are that don't use the trails and have sleds versus the thousands that actually do use the trails, don't buy a permit and come up with every excuse imaginable as to why they don't have one

[Sasquatch777]

Two things come to mind on raising permit costs. One is the Police won't charge except on private land and the fine is less then the permit. Plus the fine goes to the Province not the trails. I can ride 160 miles of OFSC trail and with one bypass that is a shortcut and saves a few miles, I never ride on private land. I sometimes wonder why I buy a pass!

So rather then lower trail passes and increase members we want to raise trail passes and drive them away. We want to increase police presence at taxpayers cost for a user pay system. We want the same police that we don't have enough of to patrol our highways and towns to drop everything and get out on those trails. We want to put our volunteers in harms way handing out fines for non compliance.

You guys are playing with a powder keg and don't know the fuse is lit. There has already been a few encounters of the I'll get even kind! Course I guess the police will have all the time in the world to look for the person who keyed your truck or find the one who threw a rock at your window.

I wish sometimes the trail system would just colapse! Don't know what you have till its gone! Time to go pull up lake stakes and call it quits for another year.

[02Sled]

Two things come to mind on raising permit costs. One is the Police won't charge except on private land and the fine is less then the permit. Plus the fine goes to the Province not the trails. I can ride 160 miles of OFSC trail and with one bypass that is a shortcut and saves a few miles, I never ride on private land. I sometimes wonder why I buy a pass!

So rather then lower trail passes and increase members we want to raise trail passes and drive them away. We want to increase police presence at taxpayers cost for a user pay system. We want the same police that we don't have enough of to patrol our highways and towns to drop everything and get out on those trails. We want to put our volunteers in harms way handing out fines for non compliance.

You guys are playing with a powder keg and don't know the fuse is lit. There has already been a few encounters of the I'll get even kind! Course I guess the police will have all the time in the world to look for the person who keyed your truck or find the one who threw a rock at your window.

I wish sometimes the trail system would just colapse! Don't know what you have till its gone! Time to go pull up lake stakes and call it quits for another year.

The vast majority of sleds out and about are in the areas that you would consider southern Ontario. In that part of the province you can't go very far without being on private property. There is VERY little that isn't. Even access to the lakes is typically across someones private property.

[Sasquatch777]

The vast majority of sleds out and about are in the areas that you would consider southern Ontario. In that part of the province you can't go very far without being on private property. There is VERY little that isn't. Even access to the lakes is typically across someones private property.

I think you underestimate how many sleds are north Of Barrie! But it just goes to show the difference between the North and the South. It looks to me like the Souths solution is the Norths demise! The irony is the Souths solution is a knee jerk reaction and those seldom work!

[02Sled]

I think you underestimate how many sleds are north Of Barrie! But it just goes to show the difference between the North and the South. It looks to me like the Souths solution is the Norths demise! The irony is the Souths solution is a knee jerk reaction and those seldom work!

I never suggested that the boundary of north to south would be Barrie. Almost all of Muskoka trails are on private land and that goes well north of Barrie. It's hard to define a definite line where the availability of trails not on private property begins but I would suggest you are getting to somewhere around the Sudbury area before that is the situation.

I constantly hear how people in the "north" ride all day on a Saturday and only see a couple of other sleds. Won't happen in Muskoka.

[Faceman]

Sas/Panther...I get and understand your points but with industry dying a horrible death in N.0. one of the few options is tourist revenue. Having said that I think it's important for all, both North and South to support each other or Districts, like D16 will start dropping off the map. The Districts south of Sudbury/North Bay will survive strictly due to population , full time and seasonal, but I'm not that positive about north. Fault, I don't look for or place blame. I just know we as a sledding community need to identify and address issues. The leadership needs to come up with viable options and solutions that meet the needs. If north clubs and residents dig in on this then you could reasonable expect southern clubs to do similar, solves nothing. We need put the ego's and personal feelings aside and decide whether this whole thing is worth saving.

[02Sled]

Sas/Panther...I get and understand your points but with industry dying a horrible death in N.0. one of the few options is tourist revenue. Having said that I think it's important for all, both North and South to support each other or Districts, like D16 will start dropping off the map. The Districts south of Sudbury/North Bay will survive strictly due to population , full time and seasonal, but I'm not that positive about north. Fault, I don't look for or place blame. I just know we as a sledding community need to identify and address issues. The leadership needs to come up with viable options and solutions that meet the needs. If north clubs and residents dig in on this then you could reasonable expect southern clubs to do similar, solves nothing. We need put the ego's and personal feelings aside and decide whether this whole thing is worth saving.

well said... the individual club egos are a roadblock to the common success

[Wildman]

Your right Wildbill, I couldn't care less about enforcement (although OPP costs go to taxpayers like me but your gas tax costs help mitigate that , so it's a wash)

But Wildman basically proved my point , you ignore the obvious reasons for slide and for spite you would rather the other riders in the province pays for your sport thru val tags revenue even though you would be targetting thousands that do not use trails.

you really need to work on your reading and comprehension. My only reason for spite is you and your rant in any thread about the federation and trying to find change. Everybody on this board gets it, you don't want a val tag/permit system. Maybe if you go back and read my post 5 er 10 times, you might actually figure out what I really typed.

[skidooboy]

why not have a program where the southern clubs link with the northern clubs, in an "adopt a club" program? take clubs that sell 200 plus permits, and have them sell 25 permits for a less fortunate smaller club. the clubs swap ideas, trail rides to the others community ect... yes, i know there will be those that say. "that is what the matrix is for" but, for smaller clubs wih alot more top trail miles than most high selling permit clubs... it could be the difference between opening and grooming, or club/districts folding and far more of the dwindling top trails, could be lost.

most would agree if a club sells 250-350 permits, losing 25 or so, wouldnt mean that much in the big picture but, a smaller club losing 10-20 permits could mean the difference in making it or not.

Ski

Ski

[Faceman]

Good point Ski...but when one club looks at the other and the perception is the other side isn't pulling its load...and please note I said perception, than things dont work. This really is'nt directly about selling permits, its about the clubs ability to open trails. All the money in the world can't fix the attitude of me don't need the OFSC. Kills interest, kills support. Matrix and FedNor monies have done a lot for the north over the past but certainly not without the huge support of the volunteers. Sad if that went to waste. Oh and btw, we have gone from 300 to 172 this year and even at 300 we are a "have not club". You need the mid central support to survive

[Viperules700]

The lack of snow in the south two winters ago, lead to a decrease of 30 percent of permit sales. I heard some clubs were down 50 percent (your's is close to that faceman). Suddenly this results in huge shortfalls for the matrix. Southern clubs have tons of traffic and most groom 5 days a week, some 7. D5 has 10 clubs that pool money together known as the golden triangle grooming association. 4 groomers are shared among 10 clubs. Clubs keep thier small portion of money from each permit, then rest goes to the association and remaining to ofsc for shortfall program. The beast is another example of 3 clubs pooling funds together. I think more of this needs to occur, since there is a huge savings in sharing grooming equipment and working it more hours when needed. That way association can rotate them about every 5 years. It works plan and simple. The north could easily do this too. Have 3 Assocations, instead of 20 make shift small clubs.

[Sasquatch777]

I never suggested that the boundary of north to south would be Barrie. Almost all of Muskoka trails are on private land and that goes well north of Barrie. It's hard to define a definite line where the availability of trails not on private property begins but I would suggest you are getting to somewhere around the Sudbury area before that is the situation.

I constantly hear how people in the "north" ride all day on a Saturday and only see a couple of other sleds. Won't happen in Muskoka.

 

Your right there are no sleds up here in the North. Maybe only 10,000 or so! Your also right you can ride all day sometimes and only see a handfull of sleds on the trail. Near any town however you see lots, especialy after the sun goes down. Then the kids come out to play.

[02Sled]

Your right there are no sleds up here in the North. Maybe only 10,000 or so! Your also right you can ride all day sometimes and only see a handfull of sleds on the trail. Near any town however you see lots, especialy after the sun goes down. Then the kids come out to play.

 

I never said there aren't any sleds in the north. I just related comments I hear from a number of people who ride in the "north" how they ride all day and typically see very few other sleds. You mention the large numbers of sleds near towns and at night and suggest there are 10,000 sleds running around. So how many of those sleds running around close to towns are on OFSC trails? I am asking because I don't have numbers and just don't know. I would think though that if those 10,000 sleds bought permits the problems being experienced in keeping the trails open would be solved. What would be the reaction of those riders of those 10,000 sleds if they didn't have the trails to ride on? Would they actually be happy riding the washboard of those ungroomed trails?  I hate to see any of the trails close especially knowing how much volunteer work went into making them but if nobody wants to support them there may not be another option.

[Sasquatch777]

I never said there aren't any sleds in the north. I just related comments I hear from a number of people who ride in the "north" how they ride all day and typically see very few other sleds. You mention the large numbers of sleds near towns and at night and suggest there are 10,000 sleds running around. So how many of those sleds running around close to towns are on OFSC trails? I am asking because I don't have numbers and just don't know. I would think though that if those 10,000 sleds bought permits the problems being experienced in keeping the trails open would be solved. What would be the reaction of those riders of those 10,000 sleds if they didn't have the trails to ride on? Would they actually be happy riding the washboard of those ungroomed trails?  I hate to see any of the trails close especially knowing how much volunteer work went into making them but if nobody wants to support them there may not be another option.

 

yep if you could get them all, life would be good. Huge number are fisherman, huge number are kids who ride the town corridor then play on the lakes, hills, ditches and tresspass on private property and reflect poorly on us. Many are dads sled and he won't buy a pass because its to expensive so he tells the kid stay off the OFSC trails. You know how kids listen.

 

A lot of them bought passes when they where 100 bucks but as the price rose they dropped out. Our club went from 900 to under 200. Some of that is the economy but most is the permit price.

[Classic]

yep if you could get them all, life would be good. Huge number are fisherman, huge number are kids who ride the town corridor then play on the lakes, hills, ditches and tresspass on private property and reflect poorly on us. Many are dads sled and he won't buy a pass because its to expensive so he tells the kid stay off the OFSC trails. You know how kids listen.

 

A lot of them bought passes when they where 100 bucks but as the price rose they dropped out. Our club went from 900 to under 200. Some of that is the economy but most is the permit price.

Sorry I cannot agree with you. The permit is the cheapest part of the game. Do you bitch at your insurance company? They charge more $$ than a permit. You burn as much gas on a weekend as the full season permit costs. It's just easy to complain about the permit price. If you don't want to pay then stay the hell off the trails. Of course we all know that's not happening. God we need enforcement across the province. 

[Wildman]

enforcement.......trespass is to easy to get out of, and it lacks clout, fines might help, but easy to take the risk, what about confiscation, take the sled and auction it off at the police auction, portion goes to the federation.......that is some clout and a big risk not to buy a permit.

[Classic]

enforcement.......trespass is to easy to get out of, and it lacks clout, fines might help, but easy to take the risk, what about confiscation, take the sled and auction it off at the police auction, portion goes to the federation.......that is some clout and a big risk not to buy a permit.

The fine for not having a permit is supposed to be Min $200-Max $1000. All we need is for that to be enforced

[Sasquatch777]

Sorry I cannot agree with you. The permit is the cheapest part of the game. Do you bitch at your insurance company? They charge more $$ than a permit. You burn as much gas on a weekend as the full season permit costs. It's just easy to complain about the permit price. If you don't want to pay then stay the hell off the trails. Of course we all know that's not happening. God we need enforcement across the province. 

 

How do figure the permit is cheaper then insurance? Don't know what you pay down there but PL PD is just over a hundred bucks on my 998cc Warrior.

 

You need gas, You need insurance, But you can ride without a permit. Don't apply the Southern condition to the Northern one. For every mile of groomed trail there is 10 miles of ungroomed. There used to be more groomed trail but as the price rose and the permit sales dropped we had to close trails and concentrate on only keeping the TOP trails open at the OFSC's request.

 

We need a lower trail pass cost to sell the groomed trails to the ones who stopped buying. Easy to sell a permit to guy like me who lives to ride. Much harder to sell it to a guy who rides the odd weekend if its warm out. He doesn't see the value! And before we get into the cost of all the other things that go with sledding. His sled is older why buy another if it still runs, his truck is his daily driver and he pills his boat with it in the summer and uses it to hunt in the fall. He bought his suit 10 years ago and unlike some who buy a new suit every year or two to match the new sled he sees no reason the buy a new one if the old works fine.

 

Because he stopped buying and now rides the ungroomed trails and lakes and is vocal about how the OFSC (the clubs) took over old fisherman trails (old logging roads) the youth and many others feel like the OFSC is the enemy stealing thier trails. So guess what they don't buy either. Unlike the South we have to work way harder to sell passes to people to ride crown land. Crown land has always been public land for the most part so its a hard sell.

 

Course we catch people on the OFSC trails around the towns where the land is private and they can be charged. They are getting smarter however and know where the checks are set up, Some are dumb and get caught twice in one day figuring that they already got a ticket and can only be charged once. That one made my day! Of course they still don't buy permits. Permits cost more then getting a fine does and again the fine goes to the Police not the club!